*Author

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2262
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Intelligence is overrated.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391163#msg391163
« on: September 09, 2011, 10:22:40 am »
The Metagame
A multi-purpose project
INTRODUCTION:
The Metagame is the set of decks able to compete with reasonable chances in pvp given the current rules of the game. The larger and more diverse the Metagame, the more players will enjoy the game for longer. Hence OP cards shrink the Metagame and UP cards fail to increase the Metagame.
There are a lot of things to be said about the Metagame. For starters, you can define it through a list of the competitive decks that are used in each environment. You can write essays about certain cards and how they impact the Metagame. You can talk about how certain decks are prominent in the current metagame and about how some cards are far better than others in most contexts. You can have some ideas as to why the Metagame is what it is and you can have some ideas as to how to change it. You may even discuss how some Card Ideas in this forum - maybe how your card ideas - would impact it.

This thread is a project that has multiple aims. I don’t know if we will ever reach them or even get close to them, and I know for sure that I will never be able to do it alone. I hope to receive feedback, especially from the veterans of this game - the most experienced PvPers. I hope to host different positions, as it is quite likely that we do not all share the same opinion on the Metagame. I hope that those who don’t agree with what is listed in this thread help me understand their position so that I may add it to these opening posts (with proper credit, of course) and enrich the thread as we go along.

Of course, we have to start somewhere, so the first ideas will be a collection of what I have experienced: they will be my ideas. I’m relatively new and not that experienced, so these ideas are bound to have some flaws. That’s fine. I will update them as the discussion continues.

And now, the goals of this thread:
- To describe the most common decktypes in three different metagames: Beginner’s League (unrestricted unupped PvP), Champion’s League (unrestricted upped PvP) and War (element-restricted mostly unupped PvP).
- To isolate the Metagame issues: the cards, combos, decks, whatever that restrict a certain metagame by being clearly superior to all alternatives or by being clearly inferior to some other alternatives.
- To host different opinions on how to answer these issues.

To know more about these, read their full description below.

FEEDBACK POLICY
There is a lot to discuss about in this thread. I hope to be able to read it all and to update this thread with every opinion and every idea. Of course, some ideas will be just absurd (i.e. nerf Shroedinger Cat! It’s too powerful and ruins the metagame because it screws my deck when a bonewall is up!). So, in order for me to be able to read through your posts with ease and in order for your opinion to be taken into consideration, please do the following.
First, provide titles. It will be really easier to understand what you are referring if you write “Defining the Metagame: ethics of the work” or “Metagame Issues: the PC problem” on top of it. If you color-code them too like I did in these posts, you’re just awesome.
Second, provide constructive feedback. I know this project is huge and it may even fail terribly and abysmally. I know there are issues some people will have. I know some of you won’t believe something like this can go anywhere good. I know some of you believe certain problems to have no plausible answer. I’d really appreciate, though, if you did provide an alternative besides “just leave it alone”. Please provide at least one constructive addition in your post, or I will be forced to start ignoring you.
Third, provide evidence. “Trident stall is OP because a ton of people use it in Champion’s League” is not considered evidence. “Trident stall is OP because Larry01, Berry02 and Merry03, as well as me, found that it was dominant in many matches of last season’s Champion’s League, since nobody figured out a true counter to it. Besides, I arrived second in the League because I used it a lot and Marry03 won because he found a counter, although he won’t share it” is much more appreciated. Provide evidence to your post rather than just claims, or back up your claims with other people if you want. Run tests in the Trainer if you must, but you should have something more than just words.
Fourth, don’t heat up too much. Disagreements are what let us grow, discussion is how we try to reach a better approximation of truth. Don’t take it personally, don’t be childish, don’t heat up the conversation with inopportune comments on another user’s mother. Thank you.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2262
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Intelligence is overrated.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391164#msg391164
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2011, 10:23:36 am »
Defining the Metagame
This section is dedicated to the definition of the Metagame. It will be composed by a broad comprehensive introduction and then one small article for each deck (with a proper link to the deck’s thread, if any, or with at least a sample decklist), not describing how it works (that’s what the deck thread is for) but describing the relations it has with other decks. What it works against. What counters it. Why it is effective in a certain meta. What key cards define its power.

Regarding the ethics of this part of the project. I know some of the players think that sharing their “secrets” with other players is wrong, that each should think for his own and that since deckbuilding is so important you should NOT provide a free-to-read description of the metagame and point people to common PvP decks while also explaining them when and how to use them.
Of course, this is perfectly understandable, and I will respect your choice. I also hope you will nonetheless participate in the rest of the project - as that is less controversial in this regard and your experience will be invaluable.
I do have some things to say in defense of this idea, though: first, that we are a community and we should act as one, helping each other and especially the newer less experienced players; second, that decks are out there in the open already and a small guide to the basics of PvP won’t ruin the world, especially since I expect players who read and fully understand this “guide” to be able to pick up the basics of PvP by themselves given time (besides, it’s not really a guide either); third, that this may help you too, because seeing it all out in the open may (or may not) make you realize possible cracks in the Metagame or possible answers to common threats you didn’t think of before; fourth, that since this guide is based on common decks and common play (by its own definition), describing it will help new players get into it, but revolutionary decks or strategies will not be listed hence remaining the “secret” veterans would want them to be. Besides, the main reason I took interest in this project is the possible applications for the next sections; if it can help some new players get started on PvP, even better.

Of course any help you are willing to give me on this is very well accepted. I don’t think I’m the best person to provide experience, and I participated in only one BL and one War, so I hope some true veterans will share their thoughts on this.

Beginner’s League
The Beginner’s League metagame is intresting because it is completely unrestricted (apart from being unupped). It is therefore a good index on the balance of the game as a whole, when considering unupped decks.

Spoiler for Hidden:
After 100+ games of BL last season, I feel as if I got a fairly complete overview of the powerful decks in BL.  For what it's worth, here's a small portion of what I saw happening last season.

1) Prevalence of Mono-Light as a counter to Firestall + rushes
Without a doubt one of the biggest creations in BL season 1/2012, popularized by regen2k9.  Highly customizable, the basic combination of SoD + Miracle as a backbone of a mono-light stall worked excellently to avoid the OTK capacities of Firestall and some other OTK decks while being able to survive against even the most powerful of rushes.  The power of this deck lead to a shift in the meta, leading towards...

2) An influx of denial
My last round against regen2k9 last BL was discake vs DBH.  Twice.  Denial was the key to keeping mono-light at bay, preventing it from setting up a powerful defense.  As a result, Discord/EQ and Discord/BH decks rose in power, and some Mono-Lights began to run Sanctuaries instead of SoSacs (not many though - SoSacs were still key to dealing with rushes that rose in power over time, such as antabows).

3) The power of Timestall
My own personal creation, a low-quanta time/light stall managed to keep much of the stalling capacity of mono-light while also being able to defeat mono-light.  Reverse Time and Eternity worked wonders against immobows and grabbows, and these combined with Sundials and Procrastinations gave time to set up Sanctuaries and SoDs combined with Miracles to outstall the opponent. 

4) Shards in the meta
Shards really weren't used that much in the meta.  SoD and SoSac were used in Mono-Light, SoD was used in my Time/Light stall, and SoG was used in SoG Firestall.  One person ran a Zen-type deck once, but Zen isn't very effective unupped.  That was pretty much it, however.  SoR-Pharoahs were too slow, unupped Instosis was generally inferior to a standard dragonbow OTK, SoSe was just not very powerful unupped and SoPa was useless up until the very end of the season.  While SoSac could be used in mono-death, Bone Wall generally served the same purpose while providing a better defense.

Overall, stalls held great strength mainly due to the power of SoD to act as a short-term heal as well as hold synergy with Miracle and SoSac.  Also, if you have something to say, please, feel free to add more to this.  Mostly, I wanted to just start a discussion with what was bouncing around in my brain.  Also, I would ask that you please not use this section to post deck codes - this is meant to be a meta discussion of BL 1/2012, and not a sounding board for deck ideas or a place to post former league decks.  Thanks.

I have largely participated in league play in the past because I feel it is absolutely essential if someone really wants to take their game to the next level as far as understanding pvp.  I started off last BL season in last place through the first couple of weeks and by the midway point I had worked by way up to 2nd at one point.  My problem with leagues is, in an environment where the sky is the limit creativity-wise, there is a real lack of creativity promoted.  If one gets too creative with their decks, they are only shooting themselves in the foot.  In Beginner's League, not everyone uses grabbows or firestall, but to make a deck that doesn't at least take these two decks into account as far as counters is a big mistake.  There then becomes a stigma that people using these decks are "noobs" and that they are playing unfair.  On a side note: for some reason grabbows have less of this stigma than firestalls do.  I ran out of motivation pretty quickly in BL to grind games in an unoriginal environment and ended up 5th.  I found that events and tournaments were much more enjoyable to me because they were generally crafted in a way that promoted thinking outside of the box. [...] My decks became categorized as the following (without getting into the specifics): Strong counters to grabbows - weak to firestalls, decent counters to both, and strong counters to firestalls - weak to grabbows/rushes.

One of the most common decks in Beginner’s League is Antagon’s Grabbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7528.msg90765#msg90765), or variations of it. It is very versatile and works against most decks you could face, but after it became public more and more counters were created. It is still an awesome deck which can brutalize an opponent in very few turns with its rush potential and versatile options. It’s one of the most used rush decks in unupped PvP to this day.
Another, even faster deck is Grabbix (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16828.0.html), which trades in the versatility and control of Antagon’s Grabbow for an even faster rush. It’s not as used, though, because in this environment having absolutely no control options may leave you prone to an opponent’s shield, weapon, CC creature or any other valuable card which can destroy your strategy.
To face the potential threats of fast rush decks, Rush Be Gone (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16499.msg225210#msg225210) is sometimes seen as a counterdeck, although it should be noted that it wasn’t thought for unupped PvP in the first place. RBG has also got some stall-breaking potential in that his Dune Scorpions with Momentum are going to hurt any stall and it is almost impossible to deck out.
A previous War deck now used even in competitive PvP, Scrambled Shriekers (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9749.msg124856#msg124856) combines a fast Graboid Rush with good quanta denial in the form of Discord. Discord can support a rush for the few initial turns you need to establish board control, but somewhat fails against rainbow decks or decks with a very high quanta income. Variations of this include some Immorushes featuring Entropy mark and Discord.
The predominance of Grabbows led to the creation of It’s a Trap! (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20783.msg282311#msg282311) The deck works well against most rushes, provided they don’t splash RT, and on a good hand is still a very fast CC rush against other decks.
A more recent deck is Ghostmere (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22026.msg301700#msg301700), which is a powerful alternative to Rush Be Gone, being very fast and capitalizing on the draw denial of both RT and Nightmere, but is more prone to heavy CC - which is common in the form of Firestalls.
Pandebonium (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26731.msg363490#msg363490) is yet another rush-stopper with the added benefit of a poison offense - very reliable especially against heavy CC decks. Also, it can devastate Fractal-based decks and creature spam decks with a couple well-placed Pandemoniums.
Candlelight (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23347.msg317605#msg317605), often known as Unupped Firestall, is one of the most powerful and influential decks out there. There are several variations, but the solid base of heavy CC, healing and Fahrenheit + Bolts to finish your opponent is nothing to sneeze at. It can destroy both rushes and stalls alike, and not many people can figure out a proper counter. Earthquakes slow it down, but are often not enough. Some people believe this deck archetype to be thoroughly broken.
Finally, a brutally effective denial deck that is sometimes seen in this environment is Discord/Black Hole (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23863.msg325708#msg325708), or DBH. The quanta denial is fast and steady enough to allow the heavy hitters to finish your opponent. It absolutely wrecks many decks, especially slow mono or duo decks, but suffers from Immorushes or even Grabbows on a fast hand.

Nova rainbows need fewer quanta producing cards than mono and duo decks. A Nova rainbow can work well with only 8-10 quanta producing cards, but monos and duos need 12-14. Nova rainbows can have a much more efficient Deck Size:Quanta card ratio and can have an advantage over a lot of decks that aren't hard counters. Grabbow was very common in BL 1/2011 and it's still a great deck, partly because Nova allows few quanta cards to be necessary. If you need evidence, I finished 2nd place in BL 1/2011 (with a better W/L ratio than 1st place) by using Nova based rainbows almost every single game.
Then there's Graboid. Just look at its stats: 8 damage for 4 quanta and a one turn delay. Nothing in the game can match that. Graboid also has versatility. It can stay unburrowed or burrow (if it has already become a shrieker) if something like Maxwell's Demon or Owl's Eye comes in to play, threatening to kill it. Other attackers like GotP, Mummy, and Toadfish can't do this. Graboid is extremely powerful, and it's the main reason QP Grabbow dominated BL until Sanctuary and GotP came out. But Graboid is still an extremely strong card, and only one creature can match its strength (Phoenix).

Champion’s League
Champion’s League metagame is free to the core. You can use any card in the whole Elements, including the upgraded Shards, making it the most complete of all metagames. It should be noted that the balancing of upgraded cards is very different from that of unupgraded cards. Some deck archetypes are more powerful, some other decks are only possible if upped.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I have joined CL this season, again, mostly for the learning experience.  I find CL to be more balanced [than BL] in a way that there are more than two decks that dominate the meta, but I find that it is less balanced in that playing anything outside of 5 or 6 decks is again, shooting yourself in the foot.  CL decks are also so quick in that I notice a lot of times the game is decided as soon as the opening hands are drawn.  I am again, quickly losing the motivation to play them because I find other game modes to be more enjoyable.  I have literally already played three DBH rainbow mirror matches that resulted in the winner being determined by a cointoss because of the following mechanic:  Turn 1 - play QT, Turn 2 - wait for 2 :entropy quanta so you can Supernova, Turn 3 - play Supernova & Blackhole and win.

I observed CL going through a [...] transformation last season.  Jen-i dealt with it by crafting his decks so that he made sure to counter both firestalls and TADAbows.  xn0ize made his go-to deck (poisondial) so that he had a mathematical advantage at beating both.  I've now found that the decks consist more of hard counters to each, but are highly draw dependent.  CL is just a big guessing game at the moment, with the winners still tending to play "overpowered" decks that have consistent opening draws.  I am still intrigued enough to play a few games here and there, but my motivation has been much less than it was at the start of BL.  Tourneys/war/events are still king for me.
The most feared of Champion’s League decks is of course Firestall (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html). Its combination of healing, heavy CC and bolt finishers makes it strong against both rushes and stalls alike, leaving only a handful of decks truly capable of winning against it.
Of course there are also a lot of very fast rushes. These decks capitalize on the opportunity to win in as little as four turns to destroy every opponent who cannot answer them fast enough. Common enough are Immorushes (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11389.0.html) - there are a lot of variations, but all share the incredible rush potential of four-five turn wins. More versatile rushes are the Speedbows (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27792.0.html), which are possibly the most common upgraded deck archetype ever.
Of course there are a lot of possible options to counter rushes. Apart from the aforementioned Firestall, you have the upped version of Rush Be Gone (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16499.0.html), or an upped version of Ghostmere (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22026.msg301700#msg301700), both featuring the very powerful RT.
A somewhat outdated, but still pretty effective against some opponents, deck is Speed Poison (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,365.0.html), which cannot survive the fastest rushes, but is effective against certain stalls. A more versatile and strong deck that is based on the same principles (stalling creatures and getting lots of poison on the opponent) is the Poison Dial (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26485.0.html) deck.
In order to counter these stall decks, a very stable rush deck is Tsunami (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12916.0.html), which can survive quite a lot of CC with its very bulky creatures. Also, you can splash Purifies in it to counter poison decks.
Finally, a deck that has still got some potential, but is significantly less strong in an upped environment is DBH (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8895.0.html), whose denial capacity is somewhat limited when the opponent is playing Towers instead of Pillars.

War
War is the most important and privileged of PvP events. It also has an intresting “base” restriction in that you need to have half of your deck composed by cards of your element. It is therefore a very good environment to evaluate the relative strength of the different Elements. War also has a very varied environment, with lots of different factors playing their role. Salvaging and Discarding can lead to very strange decks, as well as trying to counter an opponent’s Vault. It is however true that some decks play a relatively major part in War: some decks just have an incredible winrate, others may be common deck archetypes between different teams.

Spoiler for Hidden:
The most common deck archetype in War is the Grabbow. Every team has a variation of that deck in his starting Vault, because it is a versatile and strong rush deck that can easily work even off of “Vault scraps” if needed. The basic Grabbow has 6 Novas, 6 Graboids, Earth Mark, 3 off-element cards and 15 in-element cards, including about 6 pillars/pendulums. Some elements have a strictly better grabbow than others, thanks to splashable and/or synergic cards (Aether Grabbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24210.msg331037#msg331037), Fire Grabbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28145.0.html)) or having part of the archetype as in-element cards (Entropy (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24262.msg331673#msg331673) and Earth (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25989.msg353856#msg353856) have 6 more off-element slots in their Grabbows).
Another very common rush deck is the Immorush. It is played mostly by Fire (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24204.msg330922#msg330922), but some other elements adapt its skeleton to their needs (most notably Light (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24276.msg331864#msg331864), Entropy (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26075.msg354779#msg354779) and Aether (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24262.msg331668#msg331668) with in-element Immofodder, Death with ImmoCatcher (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24184.0.html) and Underworld with a mixed ImmoNovabow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26014.msg354010#msg354010)).
Other very common rushes are Earth’s (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24259.msg331651#msg331651) (and Time’s (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24284.msg331928#msg331928)) Graboid Rush, Life’s Adrenarush (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24232.msg331216#msg331216), Monodeath (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24206.msg330967#msg330967), and the General-only Fractix (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24263.msg331672#msg331672) - which is not just a rush deck but also a very good stallbreaker.

As for stalls, there are some teams who can play a strong Firestall: of course Light and Fire can play Candlelight (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24245.msg331421#msg331421), but there is also Life’s Firestall (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24237.0.html), and a less powerful version is Water/Light Stall (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24217.msg331094#msg331094).
MonoAether (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24309.msg332143#msg332143) is still a very reliable stall deck, especially when PC cards start to be discarded, and Dimensional Shields are often packed by many teams for their own duo decks. Based on a similarly powerful shield are Wings stall (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25622.msg349528#msg349528) decks, the most powerful of which are those played by Air, Aether and Death, thanks to Spider’s synergy.
Another shield-based stall archetype is Bonewall Stall: using a combination of Bonewall and strong CC, decks like Pandebonium (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26059.msg354611#msg354611), BoneBolt (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24230.msg331201#msg331201), Poison Firestall (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26112.msg355105#msg355105) or BoneEagle (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24201.0.html) are very powerful.
The Immortal (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24233.msg331249#msg331249) is a strong Light/Earth stall centered on deckout. A variation of the same is Death’s Immortal (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24187.0.html), which uses similar defense to kill with poison. These decks are very powerful against opponents without a strong total offense, but are often countered by Fractal decks or decks with many growable creatures.
Finally, Air is able to play a Firefly Queen (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24235.0.html) deck which can provide a lot of stalling power with bonds and Hope when it gets started.

The third (major) route is denial decks. The most feared of all denial decks is Discord/Black Hole: it’s so feared not only both Gravity (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24228.msg331190#msg331190) and Entropy use one, but other elements started copying the combo! Water’s Nymphcord (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24222.msg331133#msg331133) is a brilliant example, but Death’s DBH Trio (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24223.msg331136#msg331136) is intresting too and shows just how powerful the denial of DBH is against unprepared opponents.
Another major denial deck is Pestal (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24213.msg331063#msg331063), which is used by both Aether and Darkness and can be a major counter for stall-type decks.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:40:57 pm by The_Mormegil »
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2262
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Intelligence is overrated.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391165#msg391165
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2011, 10:24:04 am »
Metagame Issues
With a proper description of the Metagame we are bound to find out some issues. No metagame will ever be perfect, and maybe that’s for the best (who would want a metagame where every possible deck has the same chance to win over every other possible deck? Well, tick tack toe players, probably). Anyway, probably everyone will agree that we can improve on what we have. Even just find areas to expand into. Here we are going to outline the issues with the current metagame, as we perceive them, discuss and analyze them and find out what causes them. We are going to define what the problems are. In the next section, we will work on possible solutions, but I think even just agreeing on a problem is going to be a big step forward.
I will list in a spoiler each different problem, with a synopsis of everything that is said on that problem, quoting meaningful posts, trying to define each problem.

Element Analysis
Some are concerned by the stronger elements dominating, some are more concerned with the weaker elements not being competitive enough. This issue is somewhat related to the PC issue, as one problem most elements enocunter is lacking a reliable way to get rid of permanents, but that has already been addressed. This paragraph details why some elements are considered lackluster.

Spoiler for gravity:
Most people agree that Gravity is a weak element, especially unupped. It has lots of unavoidable damage, but its most effective attacking methods are countered hard by Reverse Time. It hasn't got reliable stalling methods, and the one method it has is very slow and also countered by RT (Armagio). It lacks a proper shield. It lacks creatures that synergize with Gravity Pull as its best attacker (and only worthy creature for some people) has momentum. It hasn't got reliable healing nor reliable quanta denial as Black Hole only works against rainbows or coupled with Discord. Even then, Discord+Black Hole is a strategy best pulled off by Entropy, as Gravity lacks the damage needed to sustain it and Entropy's Discord is the true key card that needs to be played early. Gravity is not lacking damage with Acceleration, Elite Charger, Titan + Catapult, but is rather poor at stalling, its creature control is rather weak, situational or best pulled off (pun not intended) by other elements or rainbows.

Spoiler for life:
Life is often considered a weak element, and probably rightfully so. It dominates in a CPU environment as its mindless rushing capabilities are excellent against a dumb or otherwise unresponsive opponent. However, Life is very prone to creature control, has troubles to avoid shields, is rather predictable and generally not very versatile. It has lots of rather powerful cards, but almost no in-element synergy. Its main problem is also its main strength: awesome creatures, no true versatility.
I have huge issues with the current condition that :life is in.  It's piteous to consider that this Element has such terrific damage potential and yet is so easily thwarted in its attempt by almost any form of Creature Control or Shields thrown in its way.  Nothing irritates me more than playing with my favorite Element and watching it get countered so easily by a few cards splashed in for a bit of added vitality.

However, this is not to say that this consequence of such raw power is unjustified.  In fact, Life would be arguably too powerful if this were not the case.  Permanent Control, Creature Protection, quanta bursting...all of these would remove a great deal of Life's weaknesses, but probably should not be added due to the mechanical as well as thematic problems that they present with the game.

I've seen numerous posts describing what Life is and what it should deal with, but I have a few beliefs of my own regarding what the Element is and its purpose that I'm sure I'm credible enough to base my ideas off of.  Firstly, the most important aspect of Life is how it's defined according to the game itself:  "Life elementals rely on a wide variety of powerful and different creatures; they can heal themselves and improve their ability to summon creatures using skills like “photosynthesis”."  However, this leaves much to speculation which is understandable considering the idea of "life" is very difficult to put into words.  To add to this and above all else, I also believe Life to involve growth, vitality, wildness, ferocity, instinctive behavior, and unity.

The negative aspect of these traits means that it's somewhat difficult to provide Life with a method of offense that fits its theme.  Life's not destructive, not by choice at least, but at the same time it shouldn't just be a punching bag for other Elements to do with as they wish; that's not allowing it to be competitive in the slightest.  Thorn Carapace is about the greatest destructive power that Life possesses, and at the current moment it would seem that this will not change in the future.

At the moment Life's 2 greatest strengths are fast, cost effective creatures and fast healing.  However, when you examine both of these strengths you should realize that this means Life's ability to stall is limited.  This would not seem to be the case at a first glance, but allow me to more closely analyze a few cards to demonstrate where the problem lies.
  • Mitosis - An exceptional card, very novel.  It has the potential to swarm the field quickly and should possess incredible synergy with Empathic Bond.  So where's the problem?  It's incredible vulnerable to Creature Control and Life's assortment of creatures don't help this problem much either.  About the only creature that you might expect to last long enough to really put this card to good use would be the Emerald Dragon, but it's so expensive that it reduces the novelty of Mitosis significantly.
  • Empathic Bond - The potential amount of healing this card allows is tremendous.  The first problem with this card is that it requires quite a few creatures to hit the field before it can really be used effectively.  Anything less than 6 creatures makes this card an overpriced Shard of Gratitude (with Life Mark), and that causes an even greater weakness to Creature Control within the element.  Secondly, Permanent Control removes the threat entirely and given that Life has a limited assortment of truly powerful permanents at its disposal, this is definitely high on the target list.
  • Heal - It's fantastic for fast healing, but doesn't work very well in a Life based stall.  Reason being it restores 20HP once rather than being regenerative like Druidic Staff, Sanctuary, or Shard of Gratitude.  This means that the card will see its best use in extending your HP so that you have a bit more time to kill the opponent off before they manage to kill you which is more of a rushing tactic than it is stalling.
Despite this, Life has the distinct advantage of synergy with other Elements, but it disturbs me that Life's cards work noticeably well with other Elements while lacking a great deal of that same powerful synergy with itself.  So if it can't control, isn't very effective at stalling, then that leaves it with either rushing or hybrid stall-rushes/weak control-rushes.  This makes Life extremely predictable; a punching bag.

Now.  The common problem to Life's greatest weaknesses are usually addressed by stating that it needs Permanent Control, a way to bypass Shields, more effective Creature Control, Creature Protection...the list could go on.  Each of these solutions comes with the price of not following the theme of Life at all should they be too aggressive, and therefore will likely not be added unless their effects are weakened.  However, Thorn Carapace is a somewhat weak, or I suppose slower would be more appropriate, form of Creature Control and people still want more control.  Oftentimes the card is even neglected completely, making it seem as if Life is unable to control at all.  So how long will it take before all of the weaker forms of control finally stack up to "complete" Life?

I would like to solve these issues by first reevaluating what fits thematically with Life itself.  Depending on what connections you make between the card and Life in reality, you could realistically make almost any type of connection between the card's title, its effect, and the Element.  In certain circumstances Life could be very aggressive, but with limitations of course.

So now we finally start getting down to my idea.  Let's take an example to demonstrate my point of view here.  Say you're a wolf and you witness another wolf within your pack become injured by a bear.  What would you feel after witnessing this?  Remorse, anger, vengeance, blood-thirst?  Or say that you're a mother bear whose cub is threatened by a hunter, would you feel these same emotions? 

The whole purpose of Life, I feel, is to allow things to continue to exist in a continually, expanding state of, for lack of a better word, living.  Does it make sense that when this state of living is threatened, the Element has no form of self-defense against it?  A great deal of beings in nature have a defensive response when threatened and Life should be no different.  There should be consequences for trying to bring harm to Life's creatures.

Spoiler for water:
Water is the element of synergy and adaptability. Its only mechanical theme is freezing, but it also has many duo creatures and can make very good and synergic decks with every other element (or at least with most of them). Also, Nymph's Tears is perhaps the most versatile card in the game. Water has loads of CC, good damage potential (especially upped), alternative damage with poison and bolts and a very good shield for defense. It seems like a rather complete element (except for the always present problem of PC) but two things are holding it back: its inability to answer creatureless decks (or to a lesser extent Fractal decks) and its lack of a mean to actually USE all those synergies - Water is limited, like every other element, in its possibility to produce the quanta it needs for all the awesome creature skills it has.

Spoiler for fire:
Fire is considered by some the most powerful of elements. It is certainly true that Fire is a strong element, and perhaps the strongest, due to its versatility and power. Fire has many key cards that, taken alone, are balanced, but make the element a bit too strong in respect of other elements. Fire has very good rush potential with Immolation (which has also a strong in-element synergy with Phoenix). Fire has very strong creatures but vulnerable creatures (Crimson Dragon, Lava Golem); however, Phoenix covers up for its need of reliable creatures, being almost immune to CC. Fire has the most powerful PC card in existance (Deflagration). [See above for more info on PC] Fire can stall very well with a bit of healing thanks to awesome CC cards (Fire Bolt, Rage Potion, Fire Shield, Fire Storm). Fire has good finishers (Fire Bolt, Fahrenheit). All in all, Fire has arguably both the most powerful rush card in existance (Immolation) and the most powerful stall deck in existance (Firestall). This makes it very versatile, unpredictable and overall strong against all decks.
Fire is often said to be “complete”. Often it is said as a remark on other elements, which are considered “less complete”. Whether this is a problem of Fire being too powerful or of the other elements being not powerful enough, that’s a matter of one’s own perception. However, the predominance of fire-based decks in unrestricted PvP, the two Wars Fire won (even though barely) and the number of successful Fire decks in the top-ranking Arenas should probably be considered a metagame issue.
With 1.29 Immolation and Deflagration were nerfed. This created a mixed response, as many people believe nothing was done to answer to fire's stalling capacities while fire rushes were greatly nerfed. Some believe the change was in the right direction - nerfing some of the most blatantly powerful cards in the game - but agree that nothing was done to answer Firestall's strong predominance in the metagame.

Fire is by far the best Element, in PvP as well as Arena. Whether or not you think that mean it's overpowered, Elements will be a lot more fun and diverse if a few of the key fire cards receive nerfs.

And here are the cards and strategies that make Fire clearly the best Element.

Immolation: This is a key part of the fastest unupgraded decks and can make a very fast upgraded deck. No other card can generate as much quanta of one Element nearly as quickly as Immolation. When combined with Phoenix or Lava Golem, it can build one of the fastest decks in the game, both unupgraded and upgraded.

Firestall: Fire doesn't just have the best rush; it has the best stall due to three key cards: Fire Bolt, Rage Potion, and Fahrenheit. Since stalls cause games to last long, a stall deck will have a huge surplus of quanta late in the match. No other Element can match the damage per turn of a Fahrenheit without using something vulnerable to CC. Fire also has the best bolt. Since bolts are usually used for CC, damage is a top priority. Fire bolt does 50% more damage than the other two bolts, which is definitely more valuable than the secondary effects of Ice Bolt and Drain Life. Fire also has Rage Potion. The only damage based CC cards that can beat the speed of Rage Potion are Lightning and Shockwave, but Aether and Air don't have a Bolt or weapon that can become extremely powerful with a lot of quanta. In BL, I've seen Firestall more than any other stall, which is because the other stalls can't match Firestall.

Deflagration: Deflag is the second best, if not the best, PC card. Only Steal can come close to it's speed. Is it fair that there is such a powerful PC card in such a strong Element? Definitely not.

Phoenix: This was the last straw, and the card that really made Fire far too powerful. Only two other cards can deal as much damage for a price equal or lower (Graboid and GotP). But Phoenix has an amazing ability, giving it a pseudo-immunity to damage-based CC. When combined with PC, it's one of the strongest answers to Firestall, and one of the few cards to consistently beat it. It seems ridiculous to add one of the few ways of consistently handling a highly powerful Element to that same Element.

In conclusion, Fire has the best stall, a very strong rush, and great support cards. The other Elements need to be stronger, but adding two or three cards to each Element would take months, perhaps more than a year. The only good option is to give small nerfs to Fire's key cards: Immolation, Fire Bolt, Deflagration, and Phoenix. This is by far the quickest way to balance Elements and make it more fun to play.
Firestall gets even stronger in upgraded play. With towers, Firestall can reach the crucial 10 Fire quanta a turn faster, which is enough to make a large difference. Another problem is that almost all of the counters to Firestall are weak to Supernova Denial Rushes.
The thing with fire is not that it is overpowered, but rather that it is "Complete".

By somewhat coincidence it has everything an element really needs to touch through all bases and that is what makes it terrifying and ridiculously good.

Fire's cards cover such a wide range of utility that it makes it incredibly difficult to counter.

While most elements focus on either "Maining (Death for example)" or "Support (Aether)" Fire has access to both.

This card spread makes countering fire extremely difficult.

1. Immolation
This allows fire to gain instant quanta, which increases it's speed by a large margin compared to other elements, while giving it access to other cards with ease.

2. Deflagration
Cheap PC is incredible. While Pulverizer and Butterfly effect are arguably more powerful, 2-1 quanta cost is amazing not because PC on its own is strong, but because shields and weapons are so powerful. Cards like Dimensional Shield, Dusk Mantle, Eagle's Eye, Discord, etc. can win games on their own, which is why Deflagration is such a powerful resource.

3. Rage Potion
Rage potion is an incredibly good form of single target CC. In a similar niche as Lightning, it can seriously shut down the damage from a large amount of decks.

4. Fire Bolt
This is one of the big things that makes fire incredibly powerful. With enough quanta you can use it to kill nearly every creature in the game, and it gives Fire Access to alternative damage. Since one of Fire's bigger weaknesses is how easily its creatures dies, near unavoidable damage circumvents this and makes it difficult to counter.

5. Fahrenheight

Fahrenheight coupled with Fire Bolt means that you can never have too much Fire Quanta. This makes Fire Stall an extremely stable deck because it turns every card into something useful. While in many other decks you can have under or overpillared draws, in a deck designed to simply get as much quanta as possible and survive at the same time makes this very difficult.

6. Phoenix
This is the recent addition that made Fire complete. While before it's creature damage was very unreliable because of how easily they could all be killed, Phoenix remedies this by giving it a near indestructable mid-range attacker. This means that it's biggest weakness is covered and it allows fire to touch all bases

With strong control all over the field, speed, powerful/difficult to kill creatures, alternate damage, Fire is difficult to beat, simply because of a few key cards that let it touch all bases.

But the cards on their own are balanced. It's just the fact that you can access them all so easily that makes it so difficult.

Rather than directly nerfing fire, giving other elements more options will make them be able to compete.
EvaRia is dead on in this post (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30455.msg413674#msg413674).

Fire in and of itself is not too powerful. Each individual card is balanced. The thing that makes it seem too powerful is that it is, as Eva put it, "Complete." The element itself lacks nothing. With the addition of healing to other elements, Fire can stall using Fahrenheit and Fire Bolt with the sole intent of winning by damage, not by deck out. With cheap Immolation Fuel from other elements, Fire can rush better than most any other rush. With Deflagration, Fire's main worry is PA and Bonewall. With Phoenix, Fire can rely on creature damage that otherwise would be easily removed.

Because of it's wide card base, it can compete on all fronts. Something no other element can do quite as well. Death comes pretty close, but it just isn't quite there. If other elements were "Complete," Fire would no longer seem to be too powerful.
Yeah this whole "complete" argument is just a subterfuge to not have Fire nerfed imo. :P
Fire is in no way the only Element that has access to a variety of strategies, I mean Darkness has PC and stalling and rushing too, or Earth. The difference is solely that Fire's cards are much stronger than those of the other Elements. Each of the individual cards may be "balanced" (if by that you mean borderline-op), but at the end of the day two major strategies in this game are rushing and stalling. And Fire simply has the best cards for both of those strategies.
I don't even have a problem with the rushing part, I mean Fire is supposed to be explosive and all, so it makes sense that they're fast and good at that. What really doesn't fit is the stalling part. I remember when the first Firestalls popped up people totally wtf'd as it didn't make sense that the most fickle Element of all would sit there for like 20 turns doing nothing but playing CC and PC to eventually kill you with some leftover Bolts or Fahrens, or even deck you out. But I mean what do you expect has 4 cards than get better the longer the game progresses (Bolt, Fahren, Golem, Spirit)? Those four are the cards you need to look at if you want to fix Fire. Especially Bolt and Fahren. Bolt could be changed to something more similar to Lightning or Shockwave, the pumpspell mechanic just doesn't fit Fire. Fahrenheit probably need a complete overhaul. Or you just nerf both cards into oblivion, that would work as well.
The Phoenix + Immolation + Photon combo is extremely deadly with novas or a fire mark. Phoenix is an amazing card and only a couple creatures can match its strength. Phoenix is better than every single dragon in the game, which is unfair for Fire. It has a combination of a decent Attack:Cost ratio with very high resilience.

Phoenix has damage and resilience equal to Colossal Dragon with only 70% the cost. Phoenix has better resilience than Stone Dragon and only 1 less damage, but 3 less quanta cost. Phoenix has better resilience than Golden Dragon and 58% the cost to easily pay for the 3 worse damage. While Phoenix's damage and resilience is worse than that of Phase Dragon, Phoenix only has 54% the cost, making it the better choice. Phoenix has resilience just as good as the Colossal Dragon; both creatures can survive 3 Lightnings/Rage potions, or 2 Fire Bolts off of 20 quanta. Phoenix can also be killed by the user more easily if it is Antimattered or Frozen and revive, fully restored, something that Colossal Dragon cannot do. Phoenix possibly even has better resilience than the Stone and Golden Dragons. While it takes something like Infection more time to kill the Stone and Golden Dragons, common CC like Lighting and Rage Potion are much more effective on Stone or Golden Dragon. Phoenix can survive 2 Lightnings or Rage Potions, but Stone Dragon can only survive 1 before it is killed.

Phoenix easily beats the 6 Dragons with 10|5 or 9|6 stats. It can match or even have a better Attack:Cost ratio and much higher resilience. The 10|5 Dragons can't even survive a Lightning or Rage Potion, which are both very common. Phoenix can survive two and still have enough health to revive. Phoenix can beat the Attack:Cost ratios of 9|6 Dragons and has better resilience as well. The Dragons with 6 HP will die to a Fire Bolt off of 10 quanta or two hits from common CC cards: Lightning, Rage Potion, Shockwave, and a Fire Bolt off of <10 quanta. Phoenix can revive after taking 1-2 hits from these cards.

The only dragon that beats Phoenix's Attack:Cost Ratio is Crimson Dragon, but 3 hp with no ability is too frail for a 10-cost creature. Too many cards kill the Crimson Dragon for it to even compare to Phoenix, which is a much reliable and resilient choice with almost as much speed.

Just one dragon remains: Emerald Dragon. It is the only dragon that can match Phoenix's Attack:Cost ratio with good resilience as well. But Emerald Dragon is in an Element with no PC, no strong CC, and no Immolation. Phoenix has better resilience and better support, allowing it to be more easily used in a good deck.

It is normal for some cards to be stronger than others, for example, Phoenix being stronger than the Dragons. But what makes Phoenix overpowered is that it makes a perfect partner with Immolation. In a deck with 6 Immolations, 6 Phoenixes, and 6 Photons, Phoenix can be played on turn 1 more often than not. Any other deck with only 12 quanta sources will struggle to play a Dragon by turn 2, and often not even have a Dragon in play by turn 3. Immolation also gives 1 quanta of the other 11 Elements, which allows low cost cards such as Vampire Stiletto and Fog Shield to be splashed into an Immophoenix deck. Immolation gives Fire speed that no other Element can compare to. When it is combined with Phoenix, it becomes the fastest known unupgraded deck (source) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17173.msg234266#msg234266) and also has resilience better than almost every other creature with its damage.

The Immolation Phoenix combo is in a tier of its own.



Card Analysis

Spoiler for Shard of Sacrifice:
Easily the most disputed addition to the game in the 1.29 patch, shard of sacrifice can turn around whole games easily. It turns a heavy offense into incredible healing for your opponent and there is no direct counter to this card, which can grant 2, 3, even 4 turns to a smart player in a damage race. Claims for it to be broken, overpowered and even unbalanceable have been commonplace, but some say that in its final form, after a heavy change in the AI, an increase in the hp cost and a considerable shift in the metagame, it is even balanced and produced a healthy alternative to the mindless rushing.

VS ai :
Ai is fairly intelligent vs SoX now. Holy light against your hp is just an example. Not playing cards/diving is another.

Vs players : rushing your damage, playing otks/stalls are very good solutions vs SoX. It's not OP, but shifted the metagame. People are still too used to rushes, but No damage = you win vs this card.

Thirdly => 40 hp cost means you need to fine tune your opponent's damage. If you haven't got spyware on your opponent's comp, it's half luck.
In my view, a card is considered powerful if there are relatively few counters to it. A card is considered very-powerful if the card is so powerful that counters to it essentially have to be taken to counter it, but the counters are not UP against other decks. A card is considered over-powered if the counters to the card do not function well against other decks.

Dim shield is a good example of a powerful card. The counters to Dim Shield are: Pulverizer, BE, Deflag, Steal, Ice Bolt, Fire Bolt, Catapult, Drain Life, or any other spell damage. While this is a relatively few amount of counters, they all function perfectly well against other decks (Catatitans, Firestall, Deflag, etc. are all perfectly viable decks against decks other than Dim Shield).

The old SoG is a good example of a very-powerful card. The counters to it were few - Pulvy and outdamaging. The first is difficult to be competitive against a variety of decks, and the second option is difficult against a well-constructed deck. However, they are not useless, making the old SoG barely not OP.

However, the current SoSa is, IMO, OP. The counters to it are Sundial (timed at the right time), a load of antimatters/purple nymph, SoP, and holy flash. These are highly specific counters that cannot compete with most other decks - how many decks do you know of that involve lots of creatures and sundials? Purple Nymph is slightly better, but it still isn't a great counter to SoSa, and it's extremely fragile for its high cost anyway. SoP is already widely considered to be a bit UP, and it only helps against SoSa if you can chain a large amount of them. Holy Flash? No comment needed. The counters to SoSa are few, and of the ones that really work, they are UP in any other setting. SoSa has broken the game, and it needs to be fixed.
Well, here's the problem.

Hardly anything can beat Firestall as well as SoX decks.

This turns the game into RPS between Firestall, Stallbreakers, and SoX. There will be little room for creativity or original deck types. This really isn't the kind of game we want.

Spoiler for Discord:
One of the most used (and abused) weapons in the game, strong contender for the most powerful weapon, Discord is the fastest and meanest denial card in EtG. It's strength is that it can come out reliably as soon as turn 2, and it starts scrambling your opponent's quanta right off the bat. This slows down any non-rainbow deck considerably, forcing them to work with more quanta than they need to power through Discord and still giving a couple turns of advantage to you. By combining it with Black Hole you also create a poweful denial deck that is capable of sustained denial, each black hole granting a bit of healing and a few more turns of scrambling. This is often enough to play your offensive before your opponent has the chance to play anything, granting you a good advantage early.
The hardest counter to Discord is, of course, Sanctuary - a single Sanctuary completely nullifies the weapon, damage included - but its higher cost along with (arguably) a weaker element makes Sanctuary less splashable. Also, the difference between 3 and 4 quanta is huge in Nova-based decks: two Novas and the mark power a second turn discord, while a single Nova can still get it out turn three... but you need 3 novas and Light mark to get out Sanctuary on second turn, and with a 6 cards limit that is most unlikey to happen.
Some other strong counters to Discord are shields stopping it from landing: Wings and Dimensional Shield, if you manage to play them, are enough to stop Discord for enough time to set up your defense and offense, while a lucky Fog Shield can be easily played through Discord and stop it for a turn, lessening its effect and allowing you to play some cards.
Discord is particularly strong in limited environments (namely War) where Monos and Duo decks are far more likely to be played: Discord is a lot less effective against Rainbow decks, and Quantum pillars and Novas are probably the hardest counters to Discord.

Although Discord has many weaknesses, it can provide a major advantage against many types of decks. But a big problem is that it is not beneficial to the metagame. Grabbow and Sanc Firestall are overpowered decks because of their efficiency and synergy. They have significantly fewer counters than the rest of the possible deck types. Discord only makes this problem worse by being weak against Grabbow and Sanc Firestall while being effective against almost anything that isn't Grabbow or Sanc Firestall. Discord not only destroys deck types by itself, but increases the strength of decks that are already overpowered.

Spoiler for Nova:
A decktype that is always seen in every competitive PvP Event that allows it is the Grabbow. Your mileage may vary, but even with forced duo/trios decks like in Team PvP you are seeing Nova-based rainbow decks in many matches. In upped competitive play this is further exacerbated by the presence of Supernova Rushes: strong, versatile, fast decks that can use practically everything in the game effectively, playing a mix of all the best cards to kill you fast and nice. This has led many people to believe Nova is currently one of the most powerful if not THE most powerful card in the game.

Upgraded Supernova is a much worse problem than the already overpowered Nova. By turn 0-2, it generates the amount of quanta that a tower could generate only after 21 turns! Supernova also comes with variety that monos and duos could never reach. Supernova rainbows can take the strongest cards of each Element all in one deck and play them much more quickly than monos and duos can. With common 6-turn wins, PC through Improved Steal/Explosion, denial from Discord and Black Hole, and defensive anti-rush cards, good Supernova rainbows are impossible to consistently answer. They are the one deck that cannot be hard countered.



Broad Issues

Spoiler for Permanent Control:
Permanent Control - for short PC - is the group of cards that allow to remove (or hinder) opponent’s permanents. The full list of PC cards in the game is: Deflagration, Steal, Pulverizer, Butterfly Effect. And that’s it. Not only that, but the most useful PC cards (Deflagration | Explosion in particular) are very low cost. This, combined with the importance of Permanents - especially to stall - and their normally high cost makes fast PC cards very valuable.
Many players consider Pulverizer and Butterfly Effect balanced (or in the second case, even slightly UP) due to the numerous counters and answers they have. Pulverizer is slow and requires two elements, BE is equally slow and very susceptible to CC. Both can completely turn the tides of a match, but so can other cards with a similar cost or similar vulnerabilities.
Deflagration and (to a lesser extent) Steal are a different subject. Deflagration in particular is one of the cheapest cards in the game, and for a mere 2 quanta can destroy any permanent, including the very high cost ones like Permafrost Shield, Eternity, Dimensional Shield, Empathic Bond... All for one card slot and two quanta. But that’s not all! Deflagration (and Steal) can be also used to destroy your opponent’s pillars and pendulums, turning them into useful cards for every deck. Only pillarless single-minded rushes do not use any permanent - and those have lots of counters already.
The effects of this in the metagame are evident in the abundance of decks splashing for PC in War, in the scarcity of decks without any form of PC, and it’s particularly evident in environments where PC is even more limited (for instance, The Draft or Booster Draft or even later stages of War). The problem is that PC cards are very powerful, but lack of them allows decks based on strong permanents (like Dimensional Shield) to destroy many other decks. This creates a situation where PC is not just very useful, but often required to win. Also, it gives the elements with strong PC options (particularly Fire) an unfair advantage over elements who don’t have any PC option (most of them).
The advantage PC cards create is evident and their scarcity makes them even more determinant in comparing the strength of different elements. This is a problem for the variety and balance of decks.
With 1.29 Deflagration was nerfed to 3 cost. Some believe this was a good change, but some say it further strengthened Fire as an element (see below). Both agree that we'd need to see more forms of PC in other elements to further balance the metagame.

While permanent control is currently useful and decisive in the game it is not the only theoretical method to gain the same advantage. PC has two primary appeals, Evasion and Quanta Advantage. Evasion is the method of removing/negating/disabling/mitigating the opposing defenses so your offense is unhindered. Quanta Advantage comes either in the form of trading cheap PC for expensive permanents or through the destruction of pillars. Thus means of Evasion and Quanta Advantage should be spread though not necessarily as PC.

Spoiler for Midrange Attackers:
One of the most common suggestions for less powerful elements is to “add a mid-range attacker”. What exactly is a mid-range attacker, and why do they cause a metagame issue?
A mid-range attacker is a card that has a good or at least reasonable cost/attack ratio, a medium cost (between 4 and 7, give or take a few adjustments). Good unupped mid-range attackers are Mummy, Ghost of the Past, Phoenix, Toadfish. Good upped mid-range attackers are Phase Recluse, Flesh Recluse, Elite Wyrm, Elite Charger, Gargoyle, Mummy, Archangel, Ghost of the Past, Abyss Crawler.
The importance of mid-range attackers depends on their role inside a deck. While cheap attackers are important in a rush deck, which aims at producing the most damage output in the minimum amount of time, mid-range attackers allow mono and duo decks to use leftover quanta in a rush, to put the pressure on the opponent in a control or denial deck, or to rush effectively if run with dragons and a bit of support. To provide examples, think of how Tsunami works: lots of mid-range attackers and some dragons to support the offense. Think of MonoEntropy: it has Discord to hinder its opponent, possibly support cards in Maxwell’s Demon, Dissipation Shield or Antimatter and Abominations and Dragons to kill faster than you can react. Take away Abominations and the deck is far less effective. Let’s talk about Discord/Black Hole: Gravity players know that using a 50% Gravity DBH is less effective than a 50% Entropy one, because you cannot use the excess Gravity quanta for efficient attackers. In the upped environment this turns around thanks to Elite Charger (admittedly, first turn discord is more important, but from an offense point of view the lack of a midrange attacker is determinant). Another thing to note is that with a good midrange attacker, you can make almost any duo work. If you use the quanta from your element, for example, for Mummies and Poison, you can invest half your deck in whatever you want, and it will still be pretty effective. A proof of this is Death’s DBH Trio in War: try to replicate it with 50% Air and you’ll simply fail, because Air hasn’t got a good unupped midrange attacker. If you try to replicate it with Water, you manage to make it work (Nymphcord is slightly different because of Nymph’s Tears, but nonetheless it works), and that’s thanks to Toadfishes.
The obvious conclusion is that a good midrange attacker is very important for the power of an element. The less obvious conclusion is that by introducing midrange attackers for every element, you give a rush option for every mono deck - although it should be noted, some monos will still rush faster than others, since their dragons or other support cards are strictly better. For instance, Gravity’s dragon will not allow it to rush as fast as Life, even if both got a midrange attacker with similar cost and effect: Life’s dragon is stronger and Life has Adrenaline to support its rush. Another example is how Fire can use Immolation to rush faster than about every other element, or how Graboid is the creature with the highest rush potential.
Some say introducing midrange attackers for every element would flatten the game, some believe it would expand the possibilities of each element. It is surely something to consider when thinking about the game balance, as a good midrange attacker can make or break the game.

Spoiler for Strength of individual cards:
One thing that can be discussed is the power level of a "balanced" card. If you analyze the best cards in EtG you notice that most of them can win games on their own. If your opponent is unprepared, even a couple Dimensional Shields can turn around a game (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30364.msg413125#msg413125). If you get out a Quinted Lava Destroyer with CCYB (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9545.0.html) you know you will eventually win the game. If you Fractal your Minor Phoenixes, your damage potential goes through the roof. An early Earthquake cripples quanta production. Even playing an Eternity to draw-lock your opponent is often enough to seal a game.
Somehow, having many different cards with powerful effects is self-balancing. However, it tends to lead to hard-countering and contributes to the necessity of PC (see the above issue). It has been noted that reducing the overall power of any single card reduces the necessity of having the proper counter for that card, leading - possibly - to a more varied game. It is worth discussing if this is actually beneficial to the metagame or, on the contrary, tends to produce less intresting and more "vanilla" game mechanics.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:46:20 pm by The_Mormegil »
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2262
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Intelligence is overrated.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391166#msg391166
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2011, 10:24:56 am »
Adjusting the Metagame
The above issues are somewhat recognized by most - if not all - players as problems. Of course, recognizing a problem is only the first step towards its solution. Here we will list the solutions to the current metagame issues. Each proposed solution will be put into a spoiler, marked with the name of the solution’s inventor. Also, once we start having enough materials, I will run some polls on the various solutions, and each solution will receive a rating based on the polls. Of course, the rating is only an indication and it’s not a fireproof measurement of how good a solution is, but it’s a way to keep everyone involved and make people think about the possible solutions. Who knows, maybe a solution will receive an awesome rating and Lead Developer zanzarino will notice it and introduce it! (It’s very unlikely of course, but it is something to hope for).

To get things started, I’ll put here my vision. It is not anywhere near complete, documented, tested and thoroughly discussed enough for my tastes, but it is something to start. I hope many other (hopefully better) ideas will soon be added, but even improving on this idea would be great.
If you want to submit your take on the changes that would benefit the game, follow these rules.
The first thing you should do is list the various issues you are trying to fix. Make a list of all the problems you are trying to address. Bonus if you add also the potential problems your solution might create, so that other people might expand on your idea with some fixes to those problems.
Each solution will need an extensive description of the reasoning behind it, backed up with data (which I hope will be easily found in the rest of this thread). Provide reasons for your idea to work.
If you want your solution to include card changes, provide the exact change you wish would be made. If you are unsure about what change, decide for one and ask for feedback from the rest of the community: just make sure you explain really well what the aim of your change is (i.e. I want to buff Ulitharid so that Water will have another mid-range attacker, but I’m not sure about the cost. If I make Ulitharid a 6 attack creature, what cost should it have? Let’s say a 4 cost for a 6/3, would it be ok?).
If you want your solution to include the introduction of new cards, provide the exact card or at least something similar to what you have in mind, including a link to the card’s topic in the CIA boards. If such a card does not exist, create it. If you aren’t good at creating cards, you may contact some good Card Creators to do it for you: check the Exibition Hall, the various Portfolios of Card Creators, and especially the Idea Factory.
Each solution will need also a quick recap of everything you think needs to be done: a list of card changes, a list of new cards, any additional note you think is absolutely necessary. The TL;DR version of it.

Spoiler for The Mormegil:
List of problems
  • The PC issue
  • Enhancing less powerful and versatile elements
  • Preserving and enhancing each element’s flavor
  • Reducing the effectiveness of Firestalls
  • Reducing the effectiveness of Speedbows
  • Reducing the effectiveness of Shard of Sacrifice

INTRODUCE MORE PERMANENT CONTROL: (about 2-3 cards and a card change)
Not necessarily heavy PC - like Explosion and Steal. They might as well stay in their elements with the above nerf and be good like that. But I think some more PC options should be opened up. Good examples of this are Touch of Midas (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21604.0.html) and Windswept (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19070), which should undergo a cost increase on par with Explosion because they are currently balanced towards it. Another good idea is Faun (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27401.0.html), versatile answer to both PC and opponent permanents. I think that about half of the elements should have an answer to opponent's permanents: as it is, Fire is splashed for Deflagration a whole lot too often: let other elements have similar resources and a part of the problem is solved. Speaking of which, a little buff to Butterfly Effect might be good: even just a cost reduction or having Destroy cost :entropy :entropy when upped.

RESTORE THE USEFULNESS OF MIRROR SHIELD: (2 card changes)
Make it so that if both you and your opponent have a mirror shield, bolts and spells are nullified. That way Mirror and Jade are both very good answers to Firestall, as the only problem left is Fahrenheit. If you do this, you will see rainbows including Mirror Shield to gain the time to crush their opponent. Graboid Rush with a couple Mirrors and a couple Silences will be a good answer. It leaves Fahrenheit? Yes, but you definitely CAN outrush Fahrenheit, as well as destroy it (see above for more PC options) block it (Ice Lance and Voodoo anyone?) or outheal it (light stall with Sanctuaries and Miracles, Life deck with Jade and Heals, both coupled with decent offense, especially thanks to the Quanta Cap). By introducing new counters to a powerful deck, you limit its presence and therefore effect on the metagame. Creatureless decks with a reflecting shield and healing will beat Firestall, if they have a proper win condition.

CHANGE SHARD OF SACRIFICE: (1 card change)
It seems pretty obvious to me that the card needs some change in order to be balanced. I think a complete rework of the Death Shard into something less "win or lose, the game is decided anyway" is the best option. I liked the original idea of a shard that turns you into an undead, but a different benefit rather than switching damage and healing is needed. Therefore, I propose the following: "If you are about to lose by deckout, take 15 damages instead (10 if you have a :death mark)." Upped version has only 10/5 damages per card.
It keeps the flavor as being difficult to kill while being far less than broken. It has a niche of effective, anti-deckout measure alongside Eternity, usable by everyone. Of course, it's killing the card altogether, but I see little alternative.

DECREASE SUPERNOVA'S EFFECTIVENESS: (1 card change)
Far worse than Nova, Supernova-based Rainbows (or Speedbows as they are known) are a real problem in the upped metagame, as they can beat virtually every deck on a nice hand, have no counters and obliterate less powerful decks. Introducing hard counters only leads to an RPS-like phoenomenon, so Supernova should be toned down. Reducing the cost to free and the quanta production to 1 quantum of every type + 4 random quanta is enough to keep it consistent, very usable and still stronger than Nova while not overwhelmingly stronger.

ROUND OUT THE ELEMENTS WITH MID-RANGE ATTACKERS: (3-4 card changes plus maybe 1 card)
If anyone was wondering about why mid-range attackers are important, the answer is really simple. First, it works great in combination with Dragons and a weapon to increase a mono's power to rush (take a look at mono-death: it uses Mummy and Bone Dragon, Arsenic and Poison. If you take away the poison and put in Flesh Spiders the rush is less reliable and slightly less fast, but still strong). Second, and more important, if you have a good midrange attacker, a nice shield and a weapon, maybe even a cheap card to splash, you can work with ANY element in a duo. You don't believe me? Take a look at this deck (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24223.msg331136#msg331136). Why does it work? Why can't Air use the same deck with its own element cards? Because Death has a good midrange attacker (Mummy) and a splashable card (Poison) which both work well in about every deck and can kill an opponent even alone. If you take a few pillars and pendulums, Mummies, Poison, Arsenic, maybe even a Skull Shield up to fifteen cards, you can use the rest of the cards in combination with the Mark to run ANY 15-cards-or-less combos from ANY single element. Try it with Air: you can pack defense and CC, sure, but if the 15 cards from the off-element do not have enough "punch" (for instance, if you try to create the above trio, or if you try to splash for some defensive cards), you'll find out the deck fails. If you use Wyrms, the effect is unreliable at best. You need to use Dragons, and that means you need far more quanta in order to do that, which in turn means a slower, less reliable deck.
Most elements can create good 15-cards templates to splash other elements into. The best ones have also got some very good support cards (Lightning, Dimensional Shield, Rage Potion...) to pair with some offense, but we'll talk about that in a minute. Here is a list of elements (arguably) lacking a (good) midrange attacker: unupped Aether, unupped Air, unupped Gravity, Life, unupped Light, Entropy. Darkness has Gargoyles and in upped play Vampires and Eclipse; Earth has Graboid, Elite Antlion, Steel Golem; Fire has Phoenixes, Immolation and tons of support; Time has Ghost of the Past and good support; Water has Toadfish and Abyss Crawler.
Aether has got Phase Recluse for upped play (even if it's very fragile), but even in unupped play it doesn't really need a mid-range attacker. It might have one in Psion (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28117.0.html), but with all the awesome support card it has (Dimensional Shield and Lightning) and with Parallel Universe providing good offense with a minimal creature investment (even 2-3 off-element dragons mean you can reliably copy them after stalling a bit with DimShield and Lightnings), it doesn't really need it.
Entropy is arguably the only element who really doesn't need a good mid-range attacker. There's Abomination, true, but it's not really a competitive card. Anyway, the combination of Nova, Discord, Antimatter, Discord, Pandemonium and Discord would probably make a good mid-range attacker outright broken (imagine a Mono-Entropy with in-element Elite Chargers...). Entropy is fine the way it is, from this perspective.
Life hasn't got a true mid-range attacker, but in upped play this issue is non-existant thanks to the awesomeness of Frogs, while in unupped play you can still count in a strong offensive set with Frog + Adrenaline. Creature spam is the backbone of Life as an element, and its weaknesses are definitely not on the creature strength side.
That leaves Air, Gravity and Light. Air is the most problematic, as in upped play its Wyrms are very powerful, especially coupled with the awesomeness of Damselflies; but in unupped play Wyrms are next to unusable and Dragonfly just doesn't cut it. The best solution would probably be a slight buff to Wyrm (+1 attack is considered by many people a sufficient and understandable buff). Gravity has the most awesome of upped mid-range attackers in Elite Charger, but unupped Chargers are not very strong. Again, a +1 attack buff might be understandable, but it may even be too strong: the true solution would be a revamp of Graviton Mercenary in a mid-range attacker key. The upped Graviton Guard pairs well with Adrenaline and is certainly useable (although not great), but the unupped one is definitely one of the most underpowered card in all Elements. A revamp of Graviton Mercenary as a strong 5 cost 6/6 (which would also pair well with Rage Potion and increase Gravity's synergy with Fire) would make it a very usable card. Slightly stronger than Abomination (which is usually considered underpowered anyway), probably on-par with Mummy considering all the offensive support the Death element has as opposed to the oh so vulnerable Gravity, and a good answer to RT (the bane of all good Gravity offensive).
Light is in a similar situation with the awesome Archangel having a lackluster unupgraded version. Sure, Light has Pegasus - which has an awesome in-element synergy with Blessing - but it does require Air quanta, and the purpose of this measures is to cover the base for duos. Light also has Crusader, which has amazing versatility and can achieve very good attack, but it is costy and rather slow. Light finally has Blessing, which is like a 3-cost 3-attack creature, with the added benefit of Pegasus synergy and added stability (especially on Archangels with Heal). All in all, Light has many cards that can cover for this spot, but lacks a truly powerful unupped mid-range attacker. Just one more little push on the right direction, though, and Light will probably be ok with what it has... so what about just giving Guardian Angel a buff to 3 attack? It will need reduced health, but a 3/3 creature with Heal (universally acknowledge as a Bad SkillTM) seems reasonable. Synergy with Adrenaline, synergy with Blessing (high health creature with Heal turns a useless ability in a painful anti-CC nuisance). Light will still probably need some other adjustment, all considered, but with Crusader, Blessing and a revamped Guardian Angel it will not need any new card to cover its offensive base.

BUFFING THE WEAKER ELEMENTS: (3-4 new cards)
With the above changes, most elements would be significantly closer in terms of power and efficiency. However, Gravity, Life and Water still need some better tools in their arsenal, for they have specific, relevant weaknesses.
Gravity's weakness to RT is supposed to be addressed by the change to Graviton Mercenary, but I believe another needed addition to Gravity is a more useful (or just generally efficient) shield. Gravity Shield is powerful when properly used, but it doesn't work on a majority of the offensive threats in the game. I believe something like Repulsor (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27845.0.html) fits the bill and would create many new stall decktypes around it.
Life has different problems (for an extensive reading on those, look here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33547.0.html)) which need some solving. Some excellent ideas have been seen in the CIA Boards lately (even a competition (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33609.0.html) was hosted), but I shall mention Rejuvenation (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34369) as the best one. It is soft CC, PC, reliable healing and a combo card all in one. It is terribly versatile, can help any number of strategies and is ultimately an awesome addition to Life as a whole. It still doesn't solve Life's problem with CC cards, but Foliage (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33562) (another excellent idea which is rather similar to Cloak, but different enough to be intresting) does.
As for Water, I keep thinking that it is the element of synergy, and that it requires a good alternate quanta producer that enables trios or better duos with water. I still believe Gift of Thetis (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27336.0.html) would turn around the table completely (but I admit it will probably need some tweaking to avoid having a terribly fast Mono Water Rush).

CARD CHANGES:
1) Mirror Shield and Jade Shield changed so that if you have two in play bolts to a player are completely nullified rather than reflected only once.
2) Shard of Sacrifice completely altered and / or removed from the game.
3) Supernova changed to be free, give 1 quantum of every element plus 4 random quanta.
4) Graviton Mercenary | Graviton Guard changed to: 5 :gravity | 2 :gravity for 6/6 and 3/6 respectively.
5) Wyrm buff: +1 attack.
6) Guardian Angel stats changed to 3/3.
7) Butterfly Effect slightly buffed (upped Destroy cost of :entropy :entropy and/or -1 cost, maybe)

NEW CARDS:
1) Touch of Midas (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21604.0.html), Windswept (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19070) and/or other PC options for other elements.
2) Rejuvenation (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34369) and Foliage (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33562) to provide Life with answers to its common counters.
3) Repulsor (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27845.0.html), or another card to increase Gravity's stall capacity.
4) Gift of Thetis (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27336.0.html) or a similar special quanta producer for Water that enables the Water element to reliably run trio decks.

Spoiler for plastiqe:
List of problems:
- Having a lot of quanta stored up should be good for every Element.
- Rainbow quanta production is OP.
- CC that ignores creature defenses is OP.
- Granting immortality + activated ability is OP.
- No creature left behind, each one should have an ability.
- The most expensive cards should be the best cards.
- Instead of always being "better", Upgrades should mean "more".


GENERAL RULES CHANGES:
Quanta Cap raised to 100.
All non-activated Artifacts now stack, for example cards like Boneyard and Empathic Bond.  Deflagration and Steal each destroy and steal one card from the stack, respectively.  Protect Artifact may only protect one copy in the stack maximum.
"Aquatic " is a new passive ability for underwater creatures including most Water creatures and cards like Horned Frog.
Flying creatures that lose the "Airbourne" abilty take double damage from direct damage effects.
All Dragons gain the passive ability "Dragonbourne".  Dragonbourne gives a stat increase of +1/+1 for each ten quanta of that creatures Element. 
(eg. If you have a Purple Dragon and 20 :entropy quanta, your Purple Dragon is now 12/7.  If your Dragon is then affected by Web and loses the Airbourne ability, a Lightning will deal 10 damage.)
Marks are treated as pillars, no longer limited to 6 per deck.

Cards (only unupgraded versions shown)
    Abomination:  Takes 1 less damage from direct damage sources.
    (eg: Lightning deals four damage.  Drain Life with ten Darkness quanta deals three (2+2-1) damage .  Owl's Eye deals two damage.)
    [/li][/list]Antimatter:  Four turn duration.  Cost changed to :entropy X, where X is the cost of the target creature.
    (eg. Casting Antimatter on Abomination costs 6 :entropy (1 + 5 casting cost).  It will always cost a minium of 1 :entropy to play Antimatter.  When the duration runs out the effect will revert.)
    [/li][/list]Butterfly Effect:  Cost reduced to 4 :entropy.
    [/li][/list]Discord:  Cost increased to 4 :entropy, damage increased to 5.
    [/li][/list]Maxwell's Demon:  Paradox cost increased to :entropy :entropy :entropy.
    [/li][/list]Nova:  Cost increased to 1 :entropy, generate 12 quanta randomly.
    [/li][/list]Pandemonium:  Cost increased to 5 :entropy.

    [/li][/list]Alfatoxin: Cost reduced to 6 :death.
    [/li][/list]Bone Wall:  Now gains only 1 shield charge when a creature is killed.
    [/li][/list]Poison:  Cost increased to 2 :death, inflicts 2 poison damage to a player or 1 poison damage to a creature.
    [/li][/list]Skeleton:  Stats increased to 2/2.
    [/li][/list]Virus:  Cost reduced to zero.  Stats changed to 0/1.

    [/li][/list]Black Hole:  Reduced to absorb 2 quanta per element.
    [/li][/list]Catapult:  May now sacrifice your own creatures to deal damage to creatures or players.
    [/li][/list]Chimera:  Has the casting cost of all absorbed creatures for targeting purposes.
    [/li][/list]Graviton Mercenary:  Each time Graviton Mercenary is delayed it gains +2/+2
    (eg. three turns of Freeze grants +6/+6).
    [/li][/list]Otyugh:  Stats increased to 0/4.  Devour cost increased to :gravity :gravity.

    [/li][/list]Basilisk Blood:  Cost increased to 3 :earth.
    [/li][/list]Earthquake:  Now always leaves one pillar or pendulum in the stack.
    (eg. Casting Earthquake on a stack of two Stone Pillars destroys one Stone Pillar.  Casting Earthquake on one Stone Pillar has no effect).
    [/li][/list]Hermatite Golem:  Cost increased to 5 :earth.  Each time you use a burrow ability, Hermatite Golem gains +1/+1.
    [/li][/list]Plate Armor:  Now grants +0/+4.
    [/li][/list]Shrieker:  Cost reduced to 6 :earth.  Stats reduced to 6/3.
    [/li][/list]Titanium Shield:  Damage reduction increased to 3.

    [/li][/list]Cockatrice:  Gains +0/+1 each time it is poisoned.
    [/li][/list]Emerald Shield:  Cost reduced to 4 :life.
    [/li][/list]Heal:  Heal yourself for 20 HP's.  Heal yourself for 30 HP's if you have 10 HP or less.
    [/li][/list]Horned Frog:  Gains Momentum when underwater (Flooding).
    [/li][/list]Mitosis:  Cost reduced to 4 :life.
    [/li][/list]Thorn Carapace:  Cost reduced to 6 :life.

    [/li][/list]Ash:  Stats reduced to 0/1.
    [/li][/list]Ash Eater:  Each turn :fire is generated.
    [/li][/list]Fahrenheit:  Cost increased to 4 :fire.  Damage increased to 6.  Deals 1 additional damage per 10 Fire quanta.
    [/li][/list]Fire Bolt:  Cost :fire X, where X is the additional damage done.  Deals 3 damage to a creature or player, plus 3 more for every 10 fire quanta.
    (At 5 Fire quanta you deal 3 damage for 1 cost.  At 20 Fire quanta you deal 9 damage for 7 cost.)
    [/li][/list]Fire Spirit:  Stats increased to 2/2.
    [/li][/list]Immolation:  Cost increased to :fire.  Sacrifice a creature to generate a maxium of 8 :fire quanta and 12 quanta randomly.
    (Hidden minimum is 7 :fire generated, then 12 quanta are generated randomly.)
    [/li][/list]Rage Potion:  The target creature gains +4/-4.

    [/li][/list]Arctic Squid:  Freeze cost increased to :water :water :water.
    [/li][/list]Blue Crawler:water remove 1 poison damage from a creature or player.
    [/li][/list]Chrysaora:  Cost 2 :water. Additionally, :death :death :death sacrifice Chrysaora to inflict 4 poison damage.
    [/li][/list]Flooding:  Only aquatic creatures can harm you, deals 1 damage to non aquatic/flying creatures.  Lasts 2 turns.
    [/li][/list]Ice Bolt:  Will always freeze the weapon when targeting a player.
    [/li][/list]Nymph Queen:  Additionally, all other Nymphs gain +2/+2.
    [/li][/list]Purify:  May now target creatures or players.
    [/li][/list]Trident:  May target pillar stacks or artifact stacks.  Always leaves 1 pillar or artifact in the stack.

    [/li][/list]Blessing:  Cost reduced to 2 :light.
    [/li][/list]Holy Light:  Restores up to 20 lost HP's to target creature, removes all negative effects from Light Creatures.
    (eg.  If cast on a Light creature Holy Light has the ability to clear debuffs like Antimatter, lobotomize or poison.  It would not remove positive effects like Blessing or Momentum.)
    [/li][/list]Luciferin:  No longer heals for 10 HP's.  Heal 1 HP for each creature that already has "bioluminescence".
    [/li][/list]Pegasus:  Stats increased to 3/3.
    [/li][/list]Photon:  Heal 1 HP if Photon gains the skill "bioluminescence".
    [/li][/list]Sanctuary: Healing decreased to 3 HP per turn.

    [/li][/list]Wyrm:  Stats increased to 3/4.  Dive cost reduced to :air.
    [/li][/list]Fog Shield:  Cost increased to 3 :air.
    [/li][/list]Thunderstorm:  Cost reduced to :air.  Temporarily removes "Airbourne" from enemy creatures for two turns.

    [/li][/list]Anubis:  Cost reduced to 7 :time.
    [/li][/list]Devonian Dragon:  Stats changed to 11/4.
    [/li][/list]Dune Scorpion:  Stats increased to 0/3.
    [/li][/list]Fate Egg:  Cost reduced to 1 :time.
    [/li][/list]Reverse Time:  Cost changed to :time X, where X is the cost of the target creature.
    [/li][/list]Scarab:  Stats increased to 3/N.

    [/li][/list]Drain Life:  Cost reduced to 2 :darkness.
    [/li][/list]Minor Vampire:  Stats increased to 3/2.
    [/li][/list]Nightfall:  Playing additional Nightfalls grants one turn of the Cloak effect.
    [/li][/list]Parasite:  Stats increased to 1/3.
    [/li][/list]Vampire Stiletto:  Cost increased to 2 :darkness.

    [/li][/list]Dimensional Shield:  Cost increased to 7 :aether.
    [/li][/list]Immortal:  Gains +1/+0 for each other Immortal you control.
    [/li][/list]Quintessence:  Upon gaining Immortality, previous skills are now removed.
    [/li][/list]Spark:  Stats increased to 4/0.
    [/li][/list]Turquoise Nymph:  Immortal.[/li][/list]


    Spoiler for majofa:
    General Changes
    Remove quanta cap
    (Aquatic) Immune to flooding. Gains +1/+1 while in the water.
    (Burrow) rounds up on odd attack values
    (Heavy) Creature cannot be Rewound
    A poison counter does 1 damage a turn, a Toxin counter does 2 and the creature turns into a Malignant Cell if it dies.

    WATER
    Arctic Squid | Arctic Octopus
    -No change

    Blue Crawler | Abyss Crawler
    -Passive Ability: (Aquatic)

    Chrysaora | Physalia
    -No change

    Flooding | Inundation
    -Change text: (Absorb :water) Kill any creatures along the edge of the field. Flooded :water creatures gain +1/+1.

    Freeze | Congeal
    -No change

    Ice Bolt | Ice Lance
    -May also freeze shield. (Lower chance)

    Ice Dragon | Arctic Dragon
    -Change stats: (unupped) 11/5

    Ice Shield | Permafrost Shield
    -Change costs: 4 :water / 6 :water

    Mind Flayer | Ulitharid
    -Change cost: 2 :water / 2 :water

    Nymph Queen | Water Nymph
    -Change text: :water :water :water Nymph's Tears
    Turn one of your pillars into a Nymph. All Nymphs gain +1/+1.

    Nymph's Tears | Nymph's Tears
    -Change cost: 5: water / 4 :water

    Purify | Purify
    -Change cost: 2 :water / 1 :water
    -Change text: (unupped) Remove the poison status from yourself. Gain 2 Purity counters.

    Steam Machine | Steam Machine
    -Change cost: 4 :water / 4 :water

    Toadfish | Puffer Fish
    -No change

    Trident | Poseidon
    -Change text: (Weapon) Deal 5 damage. :earth :earth :earth (upped: :earth :earth) Tsunami
    Destroy up to 3 cards in target cluster.

    AETHER
    Dimensional Shield | Phase Shield
    -Change cost: 4 :aether / 3 :aether
    -Change text: (Shield) Take no damage from physical sources for 2 turns. Your weapon deals no damage.

    Fractal | Fractal
    -No change (create passive that doesn't allow for fractaling) <-- No cards exist with this yet.

    Immortal | Elite Immortal
    *Name change: Celestial | Immortal
    -Change text: (Immaterial) Gain +1/+1 for each other (Immaterial) creature in play.

    Lightning | Thunderbolt
    -No change

    Lobotomizer | Electrocutor
    -No change

    Mindgate | Mindgate
    -Change text: :aether Duality
    Add a copy of the first card in your opponent's deck to your hand.

    Parallel Universe | Twin Universe
    -No change

    Phase Dragon | Elite Phase Dragon
    *Name change: Dimensional Dragon | Phase Dragon
    -Change cost: 12 :aether / 13 :aether

    Phase Spider | Phase Recluse
    -No change

    Quintessene | Quintessence
    -No change

    Silence | Silence
    -No change

    Spark | Ball Lightning
    -Change stats: (upped) 4/0
    -Change text: When attacking, may generate a new Spark (Ball Lightning). [30% chance]

    Turqouise Nymph | Aether Nymph
    -Change stats: (unupped) 5/2, (upped) 6/3
    -Change text: (Immaterial) :aether :aether :aether :aether (upped: :aether :aether :aether)
    Target creature gains (Immaterial).
    AIR
    Azure Dragon | Sky Dragon
    -Change cost: 11 :air / 12 :air
    -Change stats: (unupped) 11/6

    Blue Nymph | Air Nymph
    -No change

    Dragonfly | Damselfly
    -Change stats: (unupped) 2/1

    Firefly | Elite Firefly
    *Name change: Lightning Bug | Firefly

    Firefly Queen | Elite Queen
    *Name change: Lightning Queen | Firefly Queen
    -Change cost: 6 :air / 6 :air

    Flying Weapon | Animate Weapon
    -Change text: Turn target player's weapon into a creature.

    Fog Shield | Improved Fog
    *Name change: Mist Shield | Fog Shield
    -Change cost: 3 :air / 2 :air

    Owl's Eye | Eagle's Eye
    -No change

    Shockwave | Shockwave
    -No change

    Sky Blitz | Sky Blitz
    -Change cost: 8 :air / 7 :air

    Thunderstorm | Lightning Storm
    -Text change: Deals 1 damage to every enemy creature. Does an additional damage if creature is airborne.

    Unstable Gas | Unstable Gas
    -No change

    Wings | Wings
    -No change

    Wyrm | Wyrm
    *Name change: Wyrm | Wyvern
    -Change stats: (unupped) 4/3
    DARKNESS
    Black Dragon | Obsidian Dragon
    -No change

    Black Nymph | Dark Nymph
    -No change

    Cloak | Cloak
    -No change

    Devourer | Pest
    -Change stats: (upped) 0/3

    Drain Life | Siphon Life
    -Change cost: 2 :darkness / 1 :darkness

    Dusk Mantle | Improved Dusk
    *Name change: Shade Mantle | Dusk Mantle

    Gargoyle | Gargoyle
    -Change text: :earth Stone Form
    Gargoyle gains +0/+20 and (Heavy).

    Liquid Shadow | Liquid Shadow
    -No change

    Minor Vampire | Vampire
    -Change cost: 2 :darkness / 5 :darkness
    -Change stats: (unupped) 2/1

    Nightfall | Eclipse
    -Change cost: 3 :darkness / 3 :darkness

    Nightmare | Nightmare
    -No change

    Parasite | Bloodsucker
    -Change cost: 1 :darkness / 1 :darkness
    -Change stats: (unupped) 2/1

    Steal | Improved Steal
    *Name Change: Snatch | Steal
    -No change

    Vampire Stiletto | Vampire Dagger
    -No change

    Voodoo Doll | Voodoo Doll
    -No change
    DEATH
    Aflatoxin | Aflatoxin
    -Change cost: 6 :death / 5 :death

    Arsenic | Arsenic
    -No change

    Bone Dragon | Bone Dragon
    -No change

    Bone Wall | Bone Wall
    -No change

    Boneyard | Graveyard
    -Change cost: 4 :death / 3 :death

    Deathstalker | Deathstalker
    -No change

    Flesh Spider | Flesh Spider
    -Change cost: 2 :death / 3 :death
    -Change stats: (unupped) 3/1

    Grey Nymph | Death Nymph
    -Change stats: (unupped) 3/4, (upped) 3/7

    Mummy | Elite Mummy
    *Name change: Corpse | Mummy

    Plague | Improved Plague
    -Change cost: 3 :death / 2 :death

    Poison | Deadly Poison
    -No change

    Skeleton | Elite Skeleton
    *Name change: Gaunt | Skeleton
    -Change cost: 1 :death / 'free'
    -Change stats: (unupped) 2/2

    Skull Shield | Skull Buckler
    -Change cost: 4 :death / 3 :death
    -Change text: (Shield) Reduce damage by 1. Attacking creatures have a chance to die.

    Soul Catcher | Soul Catcher
    -Change text: Every time a creature is killed, Soul Catcher generates :death :death :death. (upped: :death :death :death :death)

    Virus | Retrovirus
    -Change cost: 'free' / 'free'

    Vulture | Condor
    -Change cost: 2 :death / 2 :death
    EARTH
    Antlion | Elite Antlion
    *Name change: Antlion | Ankheg
    -Text change: :earth Burrow
    Ignores opponent's shield while burrowed.

    Auburn Nymph | Earth Nymph
    -No change

    Basilisk Blood | Basilisk Blood
    -No change

    Earthquake | Quicksand
    -Change cost: 2 :earth / 1 :earth
    -Change text: Destroy up to 2 pillars or pendulums in target cluster.

    Enchant Artifact | Protect Artifact
    -No change

    Gnome Rider | Gnome Gemfinder
    -No change

    Graboid | Elite Graboid
    *Name change: Graboid | Dirt Dragon
    -No change

    Hematite Golem | Steel Golem
    -No change

    Iridium Warden | Vanadium Warden
    -No change

    Plate Armor | Heavy Armor
    -Change text: Target creature gains +0/+3 (upped: +0/+6) and gain (Heavy).

    Pulverizer | Pulverizer
    -No change

    Shrieker | Elite Shrieker
    *Name change: Shrieker | Dust Dragon
    -Change cost: 6 :earth / 6 :earth
    -Change stats: (unupped) 6/3, (upped) 8/3
    -Text change: :earth Burrow
    Ignores opponent's shield while burrowed.

    Stone Dragon | Basalt Dragon
    -Change cost: 10 :earth / 11 :earth

    Stone Skin | Granite Skin
    -Change text: Add X HP to your maximum health. X is your :earth quanta. Max 75 HP.

    Titanium Shield | Diamond Shield
    -No change
    ENTROPY
    Abomination | Micro Abomination
    -No change

    Antimatter | Improved Antimatter
    *Name change: Antisubstance | Antimatter
    -Change cost: 8 :entropy / 7 :entropy

    Butterfly Effect | Butterfly Effect
    -Change cost: 4 :entropy / 4 :entropy
    -Change text: (upped) Target creature with less than 3 attack power gains
    :entropy :entropy : Destroy

    Chaos Seed | Chaos Power
    -No change

    Discord | Discord
    -Change cost: 4 :entropy / 4 :entropy

    Dissipation Shield | Dissipation Field
    -No change

    Fallen Elf | Fallen Druid
    -Change cost: 4 :entropy / 4 :entropy

    Lycanthrope | Werewolf
    -Change cost: 2 :entropy / 1 :entropy

    Maxwell's Demon | Maxwell's Demon
    -No change

    Mutation | Improved Mutation
    *Name change: Mutation | Super Mutation

    Nova | Supernova
    -Change cost: 1 :entropy / 3 :entropy

    Pandemonium | Pandemonium
    -Change cost: 4 :entropy / 5 :entropy

    Purple Dragon | Amethyst Dragon
    -No change

    Purple Nymph | Purple Nymph
    *Name change: Purple Nymph | Entropy Nymph

    Schrödinger's cat | Schrödinger's cat
    -Change stats: (unupped) 1/2
    FIRE
    Ash Eater | Brimstone Eater
    -Change stats: (upped) 3/1
    -Change text: (unupped) Each turn :fire is generated.

    Ash | Ash
    -Change cost: 8 :fire / 3 :fire

    Crimson Dragon | Ruby Dragon
    -No change

    Deflagration | Explosion
    -Change cost: 2 :fire / 1 :fire

    Fahrenheit | Fahrenheit
    -Change text: (Weapon) Deal 4 (upped: 6) damage. Deals more damage with more :fire quanta. [similar to Catapult]

    Fire Bolt | Fire Lance
    -Change text: Deals 3 damage to the target for each 10 :fire quanta in your possesion. Max 15 damage.

    Fire Shield | Fire Buckler
    -No change

    Fire Spirit | Fire Spectre
    -Change cost: 2 :fire / 2 :fire
    -Change stats: (unupped) 0/3

    Immolation | Cremation
    -Change text: Sacrifice a creature. Generate 6 (upped: 8 ) :fire quanta and 1 quanta of each element.

    Lava Golem | Lava Destroyer
    -Change text: :earth Growth
    Lava Golem (Lava Destroyer) gains +2/+1.

    Phoenix | Minor Phoenix
    -Change cost: 8 :fire / 3 :fire

    Rage Potion | Rage Elixir
    -Change text: Target creature gains +5/-2 (upped: +6/-3).

    Rain of Fire | Fire Storm
    *Name change: Rain of Fire | Firestorm

    Red Nymph | Fire Nymph
    -Change Text: :fire :fire :fire Rage
    Target creature gains +5/-2 (upped: +6/-3)
    GRAVITY
    Acceleration | Overdrive
    -Change cost: 2 :gravity / 3 :gravity

    Amber Nymph | Auburn Nymph
    -No change

    Armagio | Elite Armagio
    *Name change: Armagio | Guardian
    -Change stats: (unupped) 2/25

    Black Hole | Black Hole
    -No change

    Catapult | Trebuchet
    -No change

    Chimera | Chimera
    -Change cost: 6 :gravity / 5 :gravity
    -Passive ability: (Heavy)

    Colossal Dragon | Massive Dragon
    -Change stats: (unupped) 7/20
    -Passive ability: (Heavy)

    Graviton Fire Eater | Graviton Firemaster
    -Change cost: 1 :gravity / 1 :gravity

    Graviton Mercenary | Graviton Guard
    -Change cost: 3 :gravity / 2 :gravity

    Gravity Pull | Gravity Force
    -No change

    Gravity Shield | Gravity Shield
    -No change

    Momentum | Unstoppable
    -No change

    Otyugh | Otyugh
    *Name change: Otyugh | Gulguthra
    -Change stats: (unupped) 0/4
    -Change ability cost: :gravity :gravity

    Sapphire Charger | Elite Charger
    *Name change: Sapphire Charger | Diamond Charger

    Titan | Titan
    -No change
    LIFE
    Adrenaline | Epinephrine
    -No change

    Cockatrice | Elite Cockatrice
    *Name change: Cockatrice | Basilisk

    Druidic Staff | Jade Staff
    -No change

    Emerald Dragon | Jade Dragon
    -No change

    Emerald Shield | Jade Shield
    -Change cost: 3 :life / 5 :life

    Empathic Bond | Feral Bond
    -No change

    Forest Scorpion | Scorpion
    *Name change: Scorpion | Forest Scorpion

    Forest Spirit | Forest Spectre
    -Change cost: 2 :life / 2 :life

    Green Nymph | Life Nymph
    -No change

    Heal | Improved Heal
    *Name change: Mend | Heal
    -Change cost: 2 :life / 1 :life
    -Change text: Target player gains 20 HP.

    Horned Frog | Giant Frog
    -No change

    Mitosis | Mitosis
    -Change cost: 4 :life / 3 :life

    Rustler | Leaf Dragon
    -Change cost: 1 :life / 'free'
    -Change stats: (unupped) 1/3

    Thorn Carapace | Spine Carapace
    -Change cost: 6 :life / 6 :life
    LIGHT
    Blessing | Improved Blessing
    *Name change: Grace | Blessing
    -Change cost: 2 :light / 1 :light

    Crusader | Crusader
    -Change text: :light :light Endow
    Gain target weapon's ability and +X/+2. X is the weapon's attack.

    Golden Dragon | Light Dragon
    -Change cost: 11 :light / 12 :light

    Guardian Angel | Archangel
    -Change cost: 2 :light / 6 :light
    -Change stats: (unupped) 2/7

    Holy Light | Holy Flash
    -Change text: Heal target for up to 10 HP. If the target is :darkness or :death, damage it instead. Gain 3 :light quanta.

    Hope | Hope
    -Change cost: 7 :light / 7 :light

    Light Nymph | Light Nymph
    *Name change: White Nymph | Light Nymph
    -Change cost: 8 :light / 8 :light
    -Change stats: (unupped) 3/9; (upped) 3/9
    -Change text: :light :light :light (upped: :light :light) Luciferin
    Your creatures without a skill gain 'bioluminescence'. Heal yourself for 10 HP.

    Luciferin | Luciferase
    -No change

    Miracle | Improved Miracle
    *Name change: Benediction | Miracle

    Morning Star | Morning Glory
    -No change

    Pegasus | Elite Pegasus
    *Name change: Winged Horse | Pegasus
    -Change stats: (unupped) 3/3

    Photon | Ray of Light
    -Change text: (unupped) Gain :light when put in play.

    Reflective Shield
    -Change cost: 1 :light / 1 :light

    Sanctuary | Sanctuary
    -Change cost: 3 :light / 2 :light
    -Change text: Your quanta pool and your hand can not be altered by your opponent. Heal 3 HP per turn. (Now works with Dissipation Shield and Solar Shield)

    Solar Shield | Solar Buckler
    -Change cost: 2 :light / 1 :light
    TIME
    Anubis | Elite Anubis
    *Name change: Anubis | Inpu
    -Change cost: 7 :time / 6 :time
    -Change text: :aether Immortality
    Target creature gains Immaterial.

    Deja Vu | Elite Deja Vu
    *Name change: Deux | Deja Vu

    Devonian Dragon | Silurian Dragon
    -Change stats: (unupped) 11/4

    Dune Scorpion | Dune Scorpion
    *Name change: Sand Scorpion | Dune Scorpion

    Eternity | Eternity
    -No change

    Fate Egg | Fate Egg
    -Change cost: 2 :time / 2 :time
    -Change stats: 0/4

    Ghost of the Past | Ghost of the Past
    -Change cost: 6 :time / 6 :time
    -Change text: (upped) 10 damage when discarded

    Golden Hourglass | Electrum Hourglass
    -Change cost: 5: time / 4 :time
    -Change text: (unupped) :time Hasten
    Draw a card from your deck.

    Golden Nymph | Golden Nymph
    *Name change: Golden Nymph | Time Nymph

    Pharaoh | Pharaoh
    -Change cost: 8 :time / 8 :time

    Precognition | Precognition
    -No change

    Procrastination | Turtle Shield
    -Change cost: 5 :time / 3 :time

    Reverse Time | Rewind
    -Change cost: 3 :time / 2 :time

    Scarab | Elite Scarab
    *Name change: Scarab | Kheper

    Sundial | Sundial
    -No change
    « Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:50:43 pm by The_Mormegil »
    [18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
    Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

    Offline OldTrees

    • Legendary Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 10297
    • Reputation Power: 114
    • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
    • I was available for questions.
    • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
    Defenses against Permanents should not be limited to Permanent Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391228#msg391228
    « Reply #4 on: September 09, 2011, 02:54:04 pm »
    Defenses against Permanentsshould not be limited to Permanent Control

    I would like to note a possible modification to a solution already mentioned. That will also make it work independently. This is also a comment on the "PC" problem. I am going to wait until more detail is added about the problems before detailing a comprehensive solution of my own.

    INTRODUCE MORE DEFENSE AGAINST PERMANENTS: [7-9 cards maybe more.]
    There are many types of defense from permanents that extend beyond Hard Control (Deflagration) and even extend beyond Soft Control (Ice bolt freezing a weapon). Typically types of defenses would include: Removal (Destroy, Reverse Time), Disable (Freeze, Delay), Negation (using 2 Sanctuarys vs Discord) and Mitigation (using SoG vs Titan)
    If these were to be balanced against Deflagration then Disable, and Mitigation probably would be Reusable activated skills or defend against multiple permanents at once.
    "It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
    "Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
    Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

    silux

    • Guest
    Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391245#msg391245
    « Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 03:50:13 pm »
    Guardian angel is more appealing as 1/6instead of 3/3.
    • it can heal itself
    • it can survive almost any spell
    • it can be buffed with rage potion
    • it is awesome with butterfly effect
    However it is not used so much because most creatures are one-shotkilled by spells,so it is pointless to put in the deck a creature that will almost never use its ability.Decks which uses Arcangel 9/10times is because its stats, and the ability is considered as a cool bonus.
    Guardian angel can be balanced in the metagame  making its ability passive(everytime a creature is hit by an opponent spell or ability there is a slight chance that will be countered) or by making it cheaper(1 or 2light)

    Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

    • Legendary Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 2262
    • Country: it
    • Reputation Power: 32
    • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
    • Intelligence is overrated.
    • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
    Re: Defenses against Permanents should not be limited to Permanent Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391400#msg391400
    « Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 10:13:12 pm »
    Defenses against Permanentsshould not be limited to Permanent Control

    I would like to note a possible modification to a solution already mentioned. That will also make it work independently. This is also a comment on the "PC" problem. I am going to wait until more detail is added about the problems before detailing a comprehensive solution of my own.

    INTRODUCE MORE DEFENSE AGAINST PERMANENTS: [7-9 cards maybe more.]
    There are many types of defense from permanents that extend beyond Hard Control (Deflagration) and even extend beyond Soft Control (Ice bolt freezing a weapon). Typically types of defenses would include: Removal (Destroy, Reverse Time), Disable (Freeze, Delay), Negation (using 2 Sanctuarys vs Discord) and Mitigation (using SoG vs Titan)
    If these were to be balanced against Deflagration then Disable, and Mitigation probably would be Reusable activated skills or defend against multiple permanents at once.
    This is an intresting point, but I'm afraid we need more ideas before considering to add it to the OP. Have you got any Card Ideas in mind that would represent this solution? I seem to recall SnoWeb had some a while ago...

    Guardian angel is more appealing as 1/6instead of 3/3.
    • it can heal itself
    • it can survive almost any spell
    • it can be buffed with rage potion
    • it is awesome with butterfly effect
    However it is not used so much because most creatures are one-shotkilled by spells,so it is pointless to put in the deck a creature that will almost never use its ability.Decks which uses Arcangel 9/10times is because its stats, and the ability is considered as a cool bonus.
    Guardian angel can be balanced in the metagame  making its ability passive(everytime a creature is hit by an opponent spell or ability there is a slight chance that will be countered) or by making it cheaper(1 or 2light)
    As it is, the Heal mechanic is only useful as a deterrent (talking about PvP here, AI management is something else entirely). That is because an opponent won't wast a Lightning on a 6hp creature when you have an Angel on your side of the field: he will wait for another CC card and kill the target in one go. That means that the Heal skill is not, in fact, a useful skill. This is arguable, but I think the majority of people will agree with me on this point.
    This leads to having to evaluate Guardian Angel based on its stats alone. Would it really be better off as a 3/3? You forego, as you noted, possible synergies with Rage Potion and with Butterfly Effect. I wouldn't call these awesome synergies: Butterfly Effect negates the Angel's skill, reducing its resistance, and Raging Angels is too slow unupped (2 cards and a total of 7 quanta from two different elements to get a 6/6 creature? I'd rather play a toadfish...). What you gain is a Frog-like creature, with good synergy towards Adrenaline (which is about as good as the lost synergy with Rage Potion, so not too much). However, having a low cost creature that can deal good damage (3 damage is not something to sneeze off, it's a definite nuisance: look at how Damselflies impact upped Air rushes), paired with the slower but still good Crusader, with Morning Star and with Blessings, allow for a very good mix of mono-rushing without resorting to the duo Blessed Pegasus. The aim of that solution is to allow every element to be capable of creating a good duo, by having enough rush or stall power to make a good half of any deck: turning Guardian Angel into a 3/3 manages to do that with Light, rounding out any potential 50% Light deck you could want to make.

    That's the justification of my reasoning. However, if you believe a different change should be made, please define it further. The passive ability seems a nice idea: what exactly should be its wording in your opinion?
    [18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
    Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

    Offline ralouf

    • Legendary Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 3113
    • Reputation Power: 35
    • ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.ralouf is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
    • Elements lover
    • Awards: War #5 - Sportsmanship AwardWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeChampionship League 1/2012 WinnerWar #4 Winner - Team DeathWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
    Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391423#msg391423
    « Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 11:04:32 pm »
    Very usefull and nice thread ! gratz !

    For the CL you can add the bonewall/sundial/arsenic/poison deck (ask if you need the list)
    TEAM
    :deathbig
    War Se7en

    Offline OldTrees

    • Legendary Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 10297
    • Reputation Power: 114
    • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
    • I was available for questions.
    • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
    Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391426#msg391426
    « Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 11:14:07 pm »
    I have no specific examples of Permanent Negation or Mitigation to promote at this time because these are defenses against threats. Permanents are not a specific type of threat. (Morning Glory and Unstable Gas are drastically different types of offense and Owl's Eye is a defensive tool in addition to the plain Attack.) It is due to this variety of different offenses that arise through permanents that permanent control is not necessarily a problem provided defenses for the offensives the permanents embody are available. (Shield can be used to Mitigate Shortsword)
    Once enough problems are accurately identified I will make an attempt at a draft of a plan. (card creation would happen during/afterwards)
    "It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
    "Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
    Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

    Offline EvaRia

    • Legendary Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 3143
    • Country: ca
    • Reputation Power: 45
    • EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
    • I~am~Eva, ~Chillwind~ I~am~Ria, ~Searwind~
    • Awards: War #5 Winner - Team Aether
    Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391492#msg391492
    « Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 02:36:26 am »
    I have no time to do this myself, but here's how I think would be the best way to identify the major parts of the meta.

    Part 1: Major considerations

    Step 1:

    Identify central cards. These are any single cards where, when played, mean you WILL win unless your opponent brings a check.

    Quick examples are Dimensional Shield, Hope, Discord, Eternity, Purple Nymph, etc.


    Step 2:

    Identify "Checks" To these cards. These include any way to ignore the use of, remove, or render the card useless.
    For example, Deflagration does a decent job of checking Dimensional Shield.

    Step 3:

     Identify Alternatives that will likewise check those checks.

    One more tier of checks gives you a good idea of most of the idea of the shape of the metagame.

    An example of one of these cards is Bone Wall being a good check to Deflagration as an alternative to Dimensional Shield-- a strategy that Team Aether used often. Another good example is PA.

    You can continue this for as long as you want, but the first 3 tiers give you a good idea of the major considerations in the meta already.


    Part 2: The Win Condition

    Even once you check the "Win" cards, you will need to provide a win condition.

    Basically you need to identify the strongest win conditions, and provide the same chain of checks.

    Graboid is an example.

    Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

    • Legendary Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 2262
    • Country: it
    • Reputation Power: 32
    • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
    • Intelligence is overrated.
    • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
    Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391581#msg391581
    « Reply #10 on: September 10, 2011, 07:56:08 am »
    Very usefull and nice thread ! gratz !

    For the CL you can add the bonewall/sundial/arsenic/poison deck (ask if you need the list)
    If you have an example decklist, I'd be grateful. For now I'll update the OP with this (I built it based on what you said):
    Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
    Deck import code : [Select]
    710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 718 718 718 718 718 718 71a 71a 71a 71b 71b 71b 71b 71b 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pq

    I have no time to do this myself, but here's how I think would be the best way to identify the major parts of the meta.

    Part 1: Major considerations

    Step 1:

    Identify central cards. These are any single cards where, when played, mean you WILL win unless your opponent brings a check.

    Quick examples are Dimensional Shield, Hope, Discord, Eternity, Purple Nymph, etc.


    Step 2:

    Identify "Checks" To these cards. These include any way to ignore the use of, remove, or render the card useless.
    For example, Deflagration does a decent job of checking Dimensional Shield.

    Step 3:

     Identify Alternatives that will likewise check those checks.

    One more tier of checks gives you a good idea of most of the idea of the shape of the metagame.

    An example of one of these cards is Bone Wall being a good check to Deflagration as an alternative to Dimensional Shield-- a strategy that Team Aether used often. Another good example is PA.

    You can continue this for as long as you want, but the first 3 tiers give you a good idea of the major considerations in the meta already.


    Part 2: The Win Condition

    Even once you check the "Win" cards, you will need to provide a win condition.

    Basically you need to identify the strongest win conditions, and provide the same chain of checks.

    Graboid is an example.
    This is probably a good way to enhance the introduction part of each Metagame. I think we need to discuss this further before I can write it. I'll start making a couple lists below, feedback welcome!

    CENTRAL CARDS AND COUNTERS
    Cards that, if used at their full potential, can ensure a victory with a proper win condition.
    • Discord
      • Wings
      • Dimensional Shield
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Nova
      • Quantum Pillar
      • Immolation
    • Dissipation Shield
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Antimatter
      • Antimatter
      • Immolation
      • Growth / Ablaze
      • Quintessence
    • Bonewall
      • Adrenaline
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Fractal
    • Earthquake
      • Protect Artifact
      • Pillar / Pendulum / Mark Split
      • Immolation
      • Nova
    • Stoneskin
      • Growth / Ablaze
      • Parallel Universe
      • Fractal
      • Earthquake / Trident
      • Devourer
      • Discord
      • Chrysaora / Arsenic
      • Dune Scorpion
      • Silence
    • Pulverizer
      • Deflagration / Steal
      • Protect Artifact
    • Empathic Bond
      • Deflagration / Steal
      • Pulverizer
      • Rain of Fire / Fire Shield / Pandemonium
      • Maxwell's Demon / Otyugh / Owl's Eye
    • Trident
      • Protect Artifact
      • Deflagration / Steal
      • Immolation
      • Nova
    • Miracle
      • Growth / Ablaze
      • Parallel Universe
      • Fractal
      • Earthquake / Trident
      • Devourer
      • Discord
      • Chrysaora / Arsenic
      • Dune Scorpion
      • Silence
    • Hope
      • Rain of Fire / Fire Shield / Pandemonium
      • Otyugh / Owl's Eye
      • Poison
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Wings
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Fog Shield
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Eternity
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Quintessence
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Dusk Mantle
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Dimensional Shield
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Momentum / Elite Charger
      • Poison
      • Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt / Drain Life
    • Fractal
      • Earthquake / Trident
      • Devourer
      • Discord
      • Dune Scorpion
    • Mindgate
      • Deflagration
      • Steal
      • Pulverizer
    [18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
    Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

    silux

    • Guest
    Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg391891#msg391891
    « Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 11:01:52 pm »
    No wonder why Pulverizer, explosion and steal are so popular.They counter more then one win condition alone.This is needed to keep the game interesting,but limits player's options.
    I have't seen many high level decks without Pulvy, steal or explosion.There is also butterfly effect but is very hard to use it in a competitive environment.

    I believe that increasing the number of cards would be a blessing.
    To balance number of cards per element:
       Pillar
        Weak attacker
        Mid attacker
        Dragon
        Weapon
        Shield low cost
        Shield high cost
        CCreature spell
        PC spell
        Elemental spell
        Alchemy spell
        Creature with an activated ability
        Creature with an activated ability duo
        Nymph
        Special attacker
        Special attacker2
        Use all quanta spell
        Special permanent1
        Special permanent2
        Pendolum

     

    anything
    blarg: The Mormegil