Which elements are "Complete"?

[ZephyrPhantom]

I am assuming the Offensive Methods, Defensive Methods and Evasion/Counter Defense is not missing anything drastic for mono.

Slight problems/areas that can be improved
Offensive Methods:
  +1 Melee tool
  A third Offensive Method in mono (Alternatively tools that enhance the offensive part of Deckout)
  A Swarm method that does not rely on the Fractal/Mitosis tool
  Another poison tool
Defensive Methods:
  against Spell
  against Poison
[All] against Deckout (Should not necessarily give immunity to deckout. Forcing the opponent to draw would work as a defense.)
Evasion/Counter Defense:
Lots of improvement possible especially against CC and Denial.

Here are some ideas that could qualify for the above list:
From the Current Crucible Polls
 
Astral Spirit (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29060.0.html) could be a Swarm card that does not rely on Fractal or Mitosis (though it can be combined with them)
Spellstone (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29994.0.html) is a possible counterspell method seeing as you can duplicate spells and use them against your opponent (that being said, it does require QT's or Mindgate in play to be effective).
Mental Grafting (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,31029.0.html) enhances Offensive deckout by healing / damaging when cards are drawn.
Synchronization (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21023.0.html) Could counter creature-based poison by acting as a Pseudo-Lobo to an activated skill, permanent or creature.
 
Water Adept (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26923.0.html) - Could counter any ability (poison included) by replacing said ability with quantum generation.
Sea Crab (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9505.0.html) - Could be another Offensve/Melee Tool as attacks reduce Max HP.
Dehydration  (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25783.0.html) - While not true "Poison", it's effect is very similar to Poison on a creature, possibly better.
Clepsydra (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29497.0.html) - Counters deckout by forcing opponent to draw.
Frozen Hourglass (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29302.0.html) - Prevents you from drawing to counter deckout, but allows to still draw for .
Genbu (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29433.0.html) and Leviathan (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30029.0.html) both counter damage spells by reducing damage and buffing allies if killed respectively. (Both are also a subtle counter to damage shields).
 
Wasp Queen (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24541.0.html) - Currently the only card I can find that is geared towards offensive swarming without relying on Mitosis. Increases synergy.
Forester Blowgun (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26761.0.html) - New method of poisoning as well as enhancing other poisons.
Energy (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20675.0.html) - Possible counterdefense to targeting spells.
Tangle (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,31737.0.html) - Soft PC vs. denial/damage shields and can stop other denial permanents temporarily.
 
Lich (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27514.0.html) - Beatstick with a rather straightfoward but original effect.

OldTrees, could you provide an example of "Melee tools" and "Evasion of Defense"?

[Captain Scibra]

I seriously feel we are looking at this a little too in depth.  Why not just try to balance it with types of cards, doing it this way seems unproductive, and balancing types of cards seems like a much more efficient way of this.

[Pineapple]

I seriously feel we are looking at this a little too in depth.  Why not just try to balance it with types of cards, doing it this way seems unproductive, and balancing types of cards seems like a much more efficient way of this.

Because while Trebuchets and Deadly Poison are different types of cards, they're the same type of counter-defensive cards.

[OldTrees]

I seriously feel we are looking at this a little too in depth.  Why not just try to balance it with types of cards, doing it this way seems unproductive, and balancing types of cards seems like a much more efficient way of this.

Equalizing types of cards is unproductive because it does not correlate with balance. Imagine all elements had the same number of each type of card (ex: Artifacts). However only one element had the ability to defend against those cards (ex: PC). This would still be unbalanced no?

Equalizing of card types is easy. Balancing via equalizing of card types requires noticing the effects of the cards. Equalizing broad categories of effects (Offense, Defense, Evasion) is harder than equalizing card types but has the benefit of causing balance.

@ZBlader
Melee Tools: Standard beatstick cards that damage the opponent via attacking.
Evasion of defense: Any effect that allows your offense to evade/ignore the defense the opponent is using. (Momentum, Catapult, Quint[Freezing/Targeting])

I am using enhance [offense] to denote effects that speed up the offense. Antideckout would speed up deckout in ~50% of games (where you drew first). Milling/Forced Draw would speed up deckout.

[Pineapple]

Meh, I see that this thread hasn't been active (in the past 4 days) so I might as well ask in here:

Where can I find justification for incomplete elements = unbalanced metagame and complete elements = balanced metagame?

[OldTrees]

Meh, I see that this thread hasn't been active (in the past 4 days) so I might as well ask in here:

Where can I find justification for incomplete elements = unbalanced metagame and complete elements = balanced metagame?

Completion was never about balance. Some people dislike Fire having an unequal share of the meta. Unequal shares can exist even if all the decks in the metagame are balanced. Unequal shares can even happen when all cards in the game are balanced. Defensive Tools, Evasive/Counterdefensive Tools, and Alternate Offensive Tools all open new dimensions (literally) of deck possibilities. This increases the diversity of decks. If all elements have access to these types of tools then not only will the potential* diversity of decks increase but the share of the potential decks will be more equal.

In conclusion: Complete elements will have a large more diverse potential metagame while at the same time dealing with the overhyped aesthetic qualm of unequal elemental participation.

*Potential subject to interference if the cards added are UP/OP relative to the metagame.

[The_Mormegil]

In conclusion: Complete elements will have a large more diverse potential metagame while at the same time dealing with the overhyped aesthetic qualm of unequal elemental participation.

Emphasis mine. Basically, everything we are talking about when we discuss these things can be reduced to an aesthetic preference. However, I feel it is a significant one and that it is shared by the community (or most of it) and the developer (as he acted in this direction more than once, i.e. 1.29). A game where Fire is the dominant element and the others are mostly subpar, a game where Fire is used in competitive PvP more than any other element, even an unbalanced game IS possible. However, I personally don't like it, and would prefer if all elements had the chance of partecipating in an equal (but at the same time unique) way. This is the reason I believe that all elements should be "complete": not because I want every element to use every strategy, but because I want every element to be able to compete against every strategy. The most simple way to do this is by giving all elements Offensive, Defensive and Evasion tools that fit well with their theme and aren't just other cards copy-pasted.

[Dragoon]

Offensive Methods
All have ", Deckout (the free method)" implied but there is no deckout accelerating tools yet.

	Melee (2 variants Phase Dragon or Phase Recluse) Swarm (1.5 variants Fractal+Spark or Fractal+Phase Recluse)
	Melee (3 variants Wyrms, Dragons or Animated Owl's Eyes. Skyblitz Augments)
	Melee (2 variants Dragons or Gargoyles. Eclipses Augments) Spell (1 variant Drain Life)
	Melee (5 variants Dragons, Mummys, Vultures or Recluses) Poison (2 variants Poison or Arsenic)
	Melee (2 variants Shriekers or Dragons)
	Melee (2 variants Abominations or Dragons. Chaos Power Augments)
	Melee (4 variants Phoenixes, Dragons, Fire spirits or Farhenheit) Spell (1 variant Fire Lances)
	Melee (3 variants Chargers, Dragons or Acceleration)
	Melee (3 variants Frogs, Cockatrices or Dragons. Adrenaline Augments) Swarm (1 variant Mitosis. Adrenaline augments) Poison (1 variant Forest Scorpion. Adrenaline augments)
	Melee (3 variants Dragons, Archangels or Crusader. Blessing Augments)
	Melee (2 variants Dragons or Ghosts) Swarm (2 variants Pharaoh or Scarabs)
	Melee (3 variants Abyss Crawlers, Dragons or ToadFishes|Pufferfishes) Spell (1 variant Ice Bolt) Poison (1 variant Pufferfish)

I did not include any weapon without scaling damage or Animate Weapon in element. If you disagree then there would be +1 variant for melee.

Death also has a swarm ability through Boneyard and Aflatoxin. However, they are not as convenient to use as Mitosis or Fractal.

Also, how does Time have 2 swarming cards in Pharaoh and Scarab? Shouldn't it just be Pharaoh? Scarabs can't swarm without some other card like Pharaoh, Fractal, or Mitosis. If it had a second swarming card, it might be Deja Vu (though I wouldn't count it as one).

Quintessence (Negates targeting defense)
Lightning (Negates creature-type defenses)
Lobotomize (Negates creature-based defenses)
 
Unstable Gas (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
OE (Negates creature-based defense)
Shockwave (Removes creature-based defense)
 
Steal (Steals Permanent defenses and uses them against the original owner)
Drain Life (Bypass non-reflective Shields)
Parasite (Removes Creature based defense)
 
Poison  (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
Plague/Virus (Removes Creature based defense)
  
Warden (Negates creature-based defense)
Basilisk Blood (Negates creature-based defenses, Negates targeting damage defense)
 
Butterfly Effect (Destroys Permanent type-defense)
Chaos Seed/Pandemonium (Removes Creature based defense)
 
Explosion (Destroys Permanent-type defense)
RoF (Removes Creature based defense)
Fire Bolt (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
Rage Potion (Increased attack to bypass DR shields, Removes Creature based defense)
Fire Shield (Removes some Creature based defense)
 
Momentum (Bypasses Defensive shields)
Gravity Pull (Removes Creature based defense)
 
Jade Shield (Counters Bolt-type cards)
Thorn Carapace (Removes some Creature based defense)
 
Holy Light (Removes a few creatures defense sources....)
Reflective Shield (Counters Bolt-type cards)
Blessing (Increased attack to bypass DR shields)
Guardian Angel (Negates targeting damage defense)
 
Reverse Time (negates Creature removal status effects)
 
Ice Bolt (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
Purify (Counters Poison (Bypass))
Working on this.

I think that all Poison damage (Arsenic, Poison, Scorpions, Pufferfish, Chrysaora) straddles the Offensive and Evasive characteristics. It's one of the draws of this kind of damage. Although poison damage is less than direct creature damage, it is cumulative (at least creature-based ones) like growth and evasive in that once applied, it cannot be blocked by any shield (or sundial). Also, Dune Scorpion is a Counter-defensive card in that it mitigates the opponent player from playing his cards freely (a kind of soft hand-control).

Edit: I suppose Chrysaora, Deathstalker, and Dune Scorpion may not be counted under the current restrictions since they require a second element to use them.


I know you all have been only looking at Mono quanta usage to balance the completeness of an element, but I think that Duos should also should be considered some. I guess it's dependent on what you think the baseline is for playing and balancing the game. But there are a lot of cards that Zanz has put in the various elements that help multiply their strategic arsenal when combined with a second element (Air gains swarming, Earth gains PC, Water gains a growing/evasive card plus various kinds of CC, etc.). They probably should not be held up to the same level as in-elemental-quanta cards, but I'm not so sure about discounting them completely.

[OldTrees]

Boneyard and Alfatoxin were excluded because they are not nearly as efficient as Spawning.

The Scarab swarm is the smallest swarm (3-4 creatures) that I would count as a swarm. Melee cards can solo efficiently.

Poison is indeed an Evasive modification to an Offensive method. Similar to how Momentum modifies Charger's offense.

I am ignoring duo element methods because even if all duo combinations were complete that would not ensure each mono was complete. This is the same reasoning why you would consider duo rather than rainbow. I am not discounting those duo methods though. They provide stability to the metagame during which completion can occur. First Rainbow was complete, then Trios and some Duos, now as more cards are added we can complete the Monos.

Sidenote: I heard the Fire shard would force the opponent to draw. This will be a great step by giving all elements an opportunity to defend against deckout.

[The_Mormegil]

Can you update the OP with all the pretty tables for easier reference when thinking of card concepts?

[OldTrees]

Can you update the OP with all the pretty tables for easier reference when thinking of card concepts?

Sure. The Evasion table was never finished.