*Author

Purity_Riot

  • Guest
VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101535#msg101535
« on: June 26, 2010, 03:56:32 pm »
The contestants are:


TIME LEFT TO VOTE:

Time's up!

Offline dracomageat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Country: gb
  • Reputation Power: 15
  • dracomageat is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.dracomageat is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.dracomageat is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Lord of Magnetism... ...Maybe.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeBrawl #2 Winner - Team FireSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101547#msg101547
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2010, 04:28:43 pm »
Most of these cards don't seem very good but I'm loving Zenith/Nadir.

Offline Bloodshadow

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101664#msg101664
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2010, 08:25:45 pm »
NOOOOOOO... Acceleration | Mind over Body is beating Zenith | Nadir!

Come on, guys! Vote for the unique mirror effects and mirror arts of Zenith | Nadir! :)
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

SunnyGreens

  • Guest
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101670#msg101670
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2010, 08:33:41 pm »
Umm...Purity? I modified my cards remember? So Kale Hates list needed to be updated too since I can only edit my own post. The one posted here is the old one.....

Edit: Thanks Purity!

Offline Terroking

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2166
  • Reputation Power: 29
  • Terroking is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Terroking is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Terroking is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Terroking is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Terroking is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • The best practice is experience.
  • Awards: Silver DonorSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake5th Trials - Master of Earth2nd Trials - Master of Earth1st Trials - Master of EarthWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2010 2nd Place9th Tournament 1st PlaceDesign A Quest 1st PlaceSS competition #1 2ndHalfblood Recruiter
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101674#msg101674
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 08:39:41 pm »
Alright, Terro voted for Ice Age/Burning Stallion, because they're mine and I wouldn't have put them up if I didn't think they were good, Proliferation/Zombie, because I'm fond of both idea, they synergize well, and work nicely together with their elements. My 3rd vote went5 to Zenith/Nadir, because I like how they work with each other and alone.
I ask nothing of humanity but fairness in all things, but I do not expect even that.

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101697#msg101697
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2010, 09:20:46 pm »
ReViews

Quote
1. Create a pair of cards that are both synergistic
2. and work well one their own.
3. The cards must be viable for in game play, i.e. not OP.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/synergism
1. the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effect that is greater than the sum of the individual elements, contributions, etc.



Zenith | Nadir
Holy broken earth these are OP. The Zanith card locks down the opponent and is immune to damage. The Nadir card can kill so quick and so cheap. Synergy is the least of these pair they are so uber on their own, why dilute your deck playing the other element? I think the attpet was to make them work on the same creature but gamewise that is futile, focusing on one of these cards on its own as creature control is better than the 2 individually.

Proliferation | Zombie
Proliferation is a Shield for those who didn't know. Zombie is useless in a life deck because you need to fuel its rentering play effect. I't'll just suck your quanta dry and not even give you any offensive potential. Unlike Bonewall, proliferation has no benefit when an opponent plays a creature as that creatures attack will remove the charge it just gave and following successive turns reduce the shield againm wheraas the bonewall gives you a postive for removing a creature that would be removing the shield. These pair are Underpowered and provide little in aid of each other, FFQ works better than Zombie with Proliferation and Boneshield works better with Zombie so never would these 2 logically be together in the same deck.

Ice Age | Burning Stallion
Ice age, seriously lame. Prevents you from killing your opponents creatures. Supposed to work with stallion. Waste of time. Guardian Angel does it cheaper and more effectively. The burning stallion is priced and powered right in that mid zone, not if I'd not rather be using phoenix or golems but the price and power point makes it a contender. Synergy with Icae age is laughable tho. You're at a detriment for playing Water in your deck to fuel it.

Ribdule | Radiated Goo
I like the idea of Radiated goo but probably would not use it because it could kill my eternity against AI and won't help me win in pvp. Ribdule isn't that exciting. Sort of has a Synergy. Would be so much better if the Goo reformed a permanent destroying the old one to make a new. The Ribdule might be effective and the Goo could control your best selection.

Acceleration | Psychometabolism
Psychometabolism works with fractal more than anything. Acceleration Is broken opening game and instant death in the late. Aether and Time are key elements agaisnt False gods, but what are you going to do with this in a deck that has the quanta to fuel them both? PVP wise, the hit is too dangerous. Taking 15 damage to get +2 cards that need to be able to offset that damage is going to be rare and in the endgame you won't be able to hit the pinch. Mind you in MtG they'd be broken, but that game has pinch keys and a reason to risk drawing on your life to critical as you can prevent the killing blow. That doesn't exist in elements so the play potential is debateable




Ruhk | Rook
These are my cards. I chose Earth and Air because the Crucible was lacking cards for that combination mores so than any other elemental pair. Ruhk was the first of the Pair, a giant birnd that could carry off elephants and boulders. Sometimes considered an aspect of the God being Garuda. I gave it considerable Titanic stats and gave it an offensive a ability based on earth, dropping giant boulders like stories said. Ruhk live in crested cliffs so that seemed like the obvious alternate to Ruhk. I took the advantage of the similarity of name to make a Rook, a flanking outcropping. Earth already has a very high offensive potential for somehting themed defensively so I focused its potential outside of the mon-element and on the situation that you need a solution while losing but should not be able to capitalise on that over a weaken foe. The elemental can use the outcrop to asail attacking creatures, and in return the Ruhk has a defensive location protecting it from creature effects, which are the biggest deterant to using larger creatures.

They are good on their own, better in combination and encourage a synergy between Air and Earth. I challenge anyone to question these or give reason why any of the other candiates deserve a vote over Ruhk | Rook.

Vote Ruhk | Rook!

PuppyChow

  • Guest
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101879#msg101879
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2010, 01:24:17 am »
Quote
Zenith | Nadir
Holy broken earth these are OP. The Zanith card locks down the opponent and is immune to damage. The Nadir card can kill so quick and so cheap. Synergy is the least of these pair they are so uber on their own, why dilute your deck playing the other element? I think the attpet was to make them work on the same creature but gamewise that is futile, focusing on one of these cards on its own as creature control is better than the 2 individually.
I don't see how those are OP.

Zenith: It can't lock down your opponent. It can subtract 3 health from it, but... that's about it. That's nowhere near locking down your opponent.

Nadir: It can't "kill so quick and so cheap". Let's compare it to eagle eye.

For 2  :air , Eagle Eye gives the target creature +0/-3. And deals 7 damage and has 7 health when animated.
For 2  :darkness , Nadir gives the target creature +3/-3. And deals only 5 damage and only has 2 health.

Both cost 5 of their respective elements to play. Which seems more powerful? The one that has more damage, more health (when animated), and doesn't give the opponent's creature +3 attack if it can't kill? Or the one that doesn't?

The purpose of them was to use it on each other. When you target Zenith with Nadir, it gives Zenith +3/+0 since Zenith's health can't be reduced. When you target Nadir with Zenith, it gives Nadir +0/+3 since Nadir's attack can't be reduced. Seems like a great synergy to me.


Quote
Ribdule | Radiated Goo
I like the idea of Radiated goo but probably would not use it because it could kill my eternity against AI and won't help me win in pvp. Ribdule isn't that exciting. Sort of has a Synergy. Would be so much better if the Goo reformed a permanent destroying the old one to make a new. The Ribdule might be effective and the Goo could control your best selection.
Do you ALWAYS use a deck with eternity against AI? >_<.


Quote
Ruhk | Rook
These are my cards. I chose Earth and Air because the Crucible was lacking cards for that combination mores so than any other elemental pair. Ruhk was the first of the Pair, a giant birnd that could carry off elephants and boulders. Sometimes considered an aspect of the God being Garuda. I gave it considerable Titanic stats and gave it an offensive a ability based on earth, dropping giant boulders like stories said. Ruhk live in crested cliffs so that seemed like the obvious alternate to Ruhk. I took the advantage of the similarity of name to make a Rook, a flanking outcropping. Earth already has a very high offensive potential for somehting themed defensively so I focused its potential outside of the mon-element and on the situation that you need a solution while losing but should not be able to capitalise on that over a weaken foe. The elemental can use the outcrop to asail attacking creatures, and in return the Ruhk has a defensive location protecting it from creature effects, which are the biggest deterant to using larger creatures.

They are good on their own, better in combination and encourage a synergy between Air and Earth. I challenge anyone to question these or give reason why any of the other candiates deserve a vote over Ruhk | Rook.

I don't like cards that mention the other card's name. AKA, the synergy is too obvious in my opinion.

It's like submitting a card that gives an automatic win, and a card that must be played before the automatic win card to be able to play the auto win card. Sure, they synergize, but it's so obvious it isn't fun, and they don't really synergize with other cards as well.

You could make Ruhk airbourne and make Rook protect all airborne cards from opposing non-spell effects. That's not as strong of a synergistic link, but then you could give Ruhk the ability to make target creature airborne for 2  :air or something (lifts it up with it's claws).

Also, Ruhk is OP when compared with other strong cards.

For 16 air, you get 16 attack, 8 health, and an ability that causes damage, and the possibility of being saved via a 3 cost permanent.

For 13 light, you get 12 attack and 12 health and nothing more (light dragon). The difference between 8 and 12 health is negligible; both are very hard to kill. And the light dragon has no possibility of protection or a semi-strong ability.

Make it cost 18 air, and you're getting there.

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101921#msg101921
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 03:19:04 am »
Quote
Zenith | Nadir
Holy broken earth these are OP. The Zanith card locks down the opponent and is immune to damage. The Nadir card can kill so quick and so cheap. Synergy is the least of these pair they are so uber on their own, why dilute your deck playing the other element? I think the attpet was to make them work on the same creature but gamewise that is futile, focusing on one of these cards on its own as creature control is better than the 2 individually.
I don't see how those are OP.

Zenith: It can't lock down your opponent. It can subtract 3 health from it, but... that's about it. That's nowhere near locking down your opponent.
Antimatter capability on a creature that is immune to damage. THe creature is quicker to deploy and a cheaper activation allows you to remove critical targets and continue to reduce below zero attack. Just keep using it on a creature thye can't clear themselves and you win, if they clear their own creature, your ahead.

Nadir: It can't "kill so quick and so cheap". Let's compare it to eagle eye.

For 2  :air , Eagle Eye gives the target creature +0/-3. And deals 7 damage and has 7 health when animated.
For 2  :darkness , Nadir gives the target creature +3/-3. And deals only 5 damage and only has 2 health.

Both cost 5 of their respective elements to play. Which seems more powerful? The one that has more damage, more health (when animated), and doesn't give the opponent's creature +3 attack if it can't kill? Or the one that doesn't?
Nadir does not require additional cards to get multiple copies and allows you 6 copies of the effect in 6 cards, the eagle requires 12 just to match the basic nadir. Also Nadir is a candidate for Fractal. Eagle is not.


The purpose of them was to use it on each other. When you target Zenith with Nadir, it gives Zenith +3/+0 since Zenith's health can't be reduced. When you target Nadir with Zenith, it gives Nadir +0/+3 since Nadir's attack can't be reduced. Seems like a great synergy to me.
The cards are more effective as opponent control than in any way with each other.


Quote
Ribdule | Radiated Goo
I like the idea of Radiated goo but probably would not use it because it could kill my eternity against AI and won't help me win in pvp. Ribdule isn't that exciting. Sort of has a Synergy. Would be so much better if the Goo reformed a permanent destroying the old one to make a new. The Ribdule might be effective and the Goo could control your best selection.
Do you ALWAYS use a deck with eternity against AI? >_<.
AI3 requires only offence. so needs no permanents.
AI5 and AI6 will run you dry regardless of deck type. So eternity is essential. Until another deckout counter comes along, you can't risk eternity.


Quote
Ruhk | Rook
These are my cards. I chose Earth and Air because the Crucible was lacking cards for that combination mores so than any other elemental pair. Ruhk was the first of the Pair, a giant birnd that could carry off elephants and boulders. Sometimes considered an aspect of the God being Garuda. I gave it considerable Titanic stats and gave it an offensive a ability based on earth, dropping giant boulders like stories said. Ruhk live in crested cliffs so that seemed like the obvious alternate to Ruhk. I took the advantage of the similarity of name to make a Rook, a flanking outcropping. Earth already has a very high offensive potential for somehting themed defensively so I focused its potential outside of the mon-element and on the situation that you need a solution while losing but should not be able to capitalise on that over a weaken foe. The elemental can use the outcrop to asail attacking creatures, and in return the Ruhk has a defensive location protecting it from creature effects, which are the biggest deterant to using larger creatures.

They are good on their own, better in combination and encourage a synergy between Air and Earth. I challenge anyone to question these or give reason why any of the other candiates deserve a vote over Ruhk | Rook.
I don't like cards that mention the other card's name. AKA, the synergy is too obvious in my opinion.
Well, there is more synergy than name, Both use inverted elements so the quanta structure favours using them together rather than apart. They have hi/low play ranges so that while you are while on the defensive with rook and using the earth quanta to deploy it will build to later pay for the Ruhks ability. Also in the inverse for ruhk, while it is attacking it is stockpiling your air quanta.


It's like submitting a card that gives an automatic win, and a card that must be played before the automatic win card to be able to play the auto win card. Sure, they synergize, but it's so obvious it isn't fun, and they don't really synergize with other cards as well.

You could make Ruhk airbourne and make Rook protect all airborne cards from opposing non-spell effects. That's not as strong of a synergistic link, but then you could give Ruhk the ability to make target creature airborne for 2  :air or something (lifts it up with it's claws).
The first I could accept airborne can hide in the cliffs. I would probably reduce it to effects from opponents creatures tho.
The Ruhk is an Offensive creature it wouldn't carry a creature in a friendly manner and without earth its loses its nature as the Bird of Stone.

Also, Ruhk is OP when compared with other strong cards.

For 16 air, you get 16 attack, 8 health, and an ability that causes damage, and the possibility of being saved via a 3 cost permanent.

For 13 light, you get 12 attack and 12 health and nothing more (light dragon). The difference between 8 and 12 health is negligible; both are very hard to kill. And the light dragon has no possibility of protection or a semi-strong ability.

Make it cost 18 air, and you're getting there.
No other card costs 16 and the smallest card mutation can kill it. Freeze/Shockwave and various others. Uber cards need to be playable in an environment where control is so simple. A cheaper creature generates attack for each turn it is in play so the earlier it is down the more damage it can do. 12 damage for 13 vas 16 damage for 16 is comparable because the dragon will hit play a turn or 2 before the ruhk. That 1 turn is 12 extra damage, the ruhk has to attack for another 3 turns to cath up that 12 damage before it is ahead and it cost you more to deploy.

PuppyChow

  • Guest
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101942#msg101942
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 04:04:23 am »
Quote
Antimatter capability on a creature that is immune to damage. THe creature is quicker to deploy and a cheaper activation allows you to remove critical targets and continue to reduce below zero attack. Just keep using it on a creature thye can't clear themselves and you win, if they clear their own creature, your ahead.

I assumed that it wouldn't go below 0.

The creature isn't quicker to deploy. Antimatter costs 6 entropy. This costs 5 light, and then you have to wait a turn to use the ability, and then you have to pay 2 more light to use the ability, bringing the cost higher for the first use.

Maybe the hp not being able to be reduced is a little bit OP, but to preserve the synergy you could make it so "any effect that will not kill Zenith will not deal any damage". That will open up more options for control.

Quote
Nadir does not require additional cards to get multiple copies and allows you 6 copies of the effect in 6 cards, the eagle requires 12 just to match the basic nadir. Also Nadir is a candidate for Fractal. Eagle is not.
A better question is: Why would you fractal it? I would like to see a good deck that fractals it to good use. I mean, that 2  :darkness every turn isn't a small amount with lots of them out, and even then they're easy to control with a measly 2 health.

The fact that you can have 6 copies for 6 cards and doesn't need additional cards for multiple copies is the reason why I think it is well balanced. It is no where near as good as creature control, damage, or health as eagle eye (perms are harder to deal with than 2 health creatures), but you can get them out a bit easier.

Quote
The cards are more effective as opponent control than in any way with each other.
No they aren't. Zenith maybe. But Nadir? You just buffed any creature with over three health. With a 3/7 creature, you would make it 6/4, then 9/1 before you killed it. It would take 6 turns normally to deal the damage you just let it do in 3 turns. Darkness has much better ways to control creatures rather than nadir.

Quote
AI5 and AI6 will run you dry regardless of deck type. So eternity is essential. Until another deckout counter comes along, you can't risk eternity.
AI5 can easily be won with normal pvp decks. That don't require any deck out counter at all. FGs, yes if you're running a rainbow.

But you're forgetting T50, where you don't need the eternity either.

And for pvp, you could make some pretty good decks with the radiated goo (it may need a small cost decrease though).

Quote
Well, there is more synergy than name, Both use inverted elements so the quanta structure favours using them together rather than apart. They have hi/low play ranges so that while you are while on the defensive with rook and using the earth quanta to deploy it will build to later pay for the Ruhks ability. Also in the inverse for ruhk, while it is attacking it is stockpiling your air quanta.
By the gist of that logic, any two cards that use the same two elements synergize. I know that's over-simplifying it, but that's the gist of what you're saying.

Anyway, this is how it would really work out:
-You would play Rook (lowest cost).
-You would start saving air quanta for Ruhk.
-Opponent would start playing creatures.
-You're forced to use sniper ability.
-You take too long to build up air quanta due to using sniper to play the Ruhk.
-Opponent keeps playing creatures (it's a common speedbow :P ).
-You lose.

Basically, the rook using air to fuel it's ability doesn't ADD to the synergy with Ruhk. It just makes it harder to play. The Ruhk's ability isn't so bad since both Rook and the ability are cheap.

Thinking about it, 16/8 for 16 air isn't bad. But 16/8 with an ability that does damage and could potentially be even harder to control is. Which is why I suggest making it cost 17 or 18 air.


Offline Bloodshadow

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg101966#msg101966
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 04:32:30 am »
Just to clarify, Zenith can not make the ATK of the target creature below zero. If the target creature's ATK is already below zero, then the "-3" will simply have no effect. My opinion is that Antimatter should hold monopoly over negative ATKs, since the only way to achieve a negative ATK is through Antimatter.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline tyranim

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2877
  • Reputation Power: 34
  • tyranim is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.tyranim is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.tyranim is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.tyranim is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.tyranim is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.tyranim is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • formerly unit
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg102020#msg102020
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 07:41:44 am »
im disappointed in the air cards. oh well, cant be helped
my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard and they're like "its better than yours" damn right, its better than yours! i can teach you but i'd have to charge!

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: VOTING for OPPOSITES ATTRACT card idea competition. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8735.msg102070#msg102070
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 10:16:37 am »
Just to clarify, Zenith can not make the ATK of the target creature below zero. If the target creature's ATK is already below zero, then the "-3" will simply have no effect. My opinion is that Antimatter should hold monopoly over negative ATKs, since the only way to achieve a negative ATK is through Antimatter.
Does Nadir not reduce a creatures Hp below 1 ?

 

blarg: