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tdog0001

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg318069#msg318069
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2011, 04:41:33 am »
So, since the theory's base is that 1 pillar produces 5 quanta per game on average, the ratio would be 1:5, and then we compare the base ratio to our current total quanta consumption via a proportion, right? So it'd 1:5 to X:*insert quanta consumption here*. (This part is verification for me, doesn't have anything to do with the next thing)

So the main problem it doesn't take into account that stalls take longer to gain the quanta needed in the deck. But, to counteract this, pillars produce even more quanta on average in a stall. So why not boost the pillar:quanta production ratio from 1:5, to say, 8-9(Number is up for debate). This makes it so the lower amount of pillars is reimbursed with longer quanta generation, because it's silly to assume that the pillars are gonna stop producing quanta in 5 turns. Depending on how long your stall is, the longer those pillars are going to produce. For example, Aether is notorious for having a high QI due to their imbalance in the beginning of a game. But since it's a stall, it will, hopefully, have Dimensional Shields to start stalling with. It only needs 6 quanta to start, and usually those Aether pillars produce enough quanta to finish with Dragons/TUs/etc. mid to late game. It's because those pillars produce more than 5 quanta in a game on average! As I said, a good baseline for stalls is really depending on how the stall works. For example, if it is pretty fast for a stall, the QI base should be barely increased, while a stall that drags out (I'm looking at you, Phase Shield/Lance FG deck) would have a much higher base.

As for auxiliary quanta production cards, here's my opinion on each:

Immolation/Cremation: Since they're mainly used in rushes, I'll assume that the QI base is 5. Since they produce 7/9 respectively, they should equivocate to 1.4/1.8 for fire, meaning that's how many pillars they are equal too. So a deck with six of them would be the equivalent to 8.4/10.8 pillars, which makes sense, since 8.4/10.8 * 6 equals 42/64.8 fire quanta, which is enough for a rush. And to the nova side effect, 0.2 to each separate QI. So let's say we have 6 Immos and 4 novas, we'd have an equivalent of 2 pillars (10 nova-like cards *0.2), which sounds right considering Immo rushes aren't heavy in the other quanta pools. So an important lesson here is 1 quanta is equivalent to a fifth of a pillar. I came with this equation simply by reducing the above ratio 5:1 to 1:0.2 .

Nova: read above midway for detailed explanation. 0.2 to each Quanta pool's QI base, basicly.

Super Nova: read above, except double the amount to give to each pool(0.4 for the lazy people).

Creature Generators: As 10 men said, treat them like pillars, and subtract their costs from their total quanta production (For example, Brimstone Eater would be a 4 since 5(The current QI base, can be changed) - 1(cost) = 4) and then find the correct ratio for the new found total quanta production (In Brimstone's case, he would be the equivalent of 0.8 pillars (5:1 to 4:0.8) In the case of devourer, if you plan to use his Burrow ability, subtract his primary darkness cost from his total production (In this case, 3 is the result), then treat the one time earth cost as a 1 cost card when configuring your Earth QI.

For recurring costs like upkeeps or growth: Treat the cost as -(x/y) where X is the recurring cost and Y is the QI base you have (In most cases, 5). So for example, Lava Destroyer's recurring cost is 1 earth quanta. So you divide 1 by 5 and arrive at 0.2 and then make it negative. So after you count up your Earth Pool Pillar amount, you subtract 0.2 from it.

I guess that's it... correct/ask for clarification/comment/whatever on this if you have any trouble grasping this, as my method of explaining things is usually underpar.

If you didn't understand terms I used in the explanations, here they are:

QI base: The baseline amount of turns your pillars are going to produce quanta. It's what you multiply your number of pillars by and divide by your total amount of quanta consumption (In most cases, 5). I refer to it as a variable because of the first point I try to get through, was that it can change depending on your deck type. Should've used a more clear term than that, lol.

Total Quanta Production: QI Base * Pillar amount. How much total your pillars will produce on average in a game.

Total Quanta Consumption: Total of all your card costs in your deck. This is used to be divided by the Total Quanta Production to see how close the total is to 1.

So yeah, I figure there's a few flaws in this, so please, go ahead and point them out.

man that was long

Five In One

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg318516#msg318516
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2011, 09:49:01 pm »
I wonder...

Where do towers fit into the equation? They still give quantums, but you also gain one when you play them.

tdog0001

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg318521#msg318521
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2011, 09:53:56 pm »
Someone earlier explained it but it's simply the estimated number of turns the tower can produce, plus 1.

So if you have ten towers, for example, it's simply:

10 * 5(base) + 10 (Number of towers); in which case is 60.

It's interesting to note that 10 Towers is the same as 12 pillars, or 5:6.

Five In One

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg318526#msg318526
« Reply #135 on: April 23, 2011, 09:59:52 pm »
So they would count for about 1.2? Makes sense.

Then there's upgraded pendulums...

tdog0001

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg318533#msg318533
« Reply #136 on: April 23, 2011, 10:21:21 pm »
Pendulums are pretty easy. They basically, you take the base and divide it by two, and the element of the pendulum's QI is rounded up in case it comes out uneven.

And for upgraded, just add 0.5 to the pendulum's original element.

Example: We have an upped/unupped Earth pendulum, an air mark, and a base of 5.

We divide 5/2 and get 2.5, round it up to 3 for earth, and down to 2 for air. Then, for upped, we add 1 to earth making it 4. So an upped pendulum produces the same off element amount, while it produces one more for upped on element. Sounds, right, right?

here's an example that uses upped pendulums and towers. We have 10 Darkness Towers and 5 Light Pendulums (all upped) with a Darkness mark. So let's calculate the towers. We do the following:

(number of towers) * (base) + (number of towers) In this case:
10 * 5 + 10 = 60

So our total Quanta Production is 60 from towers.

Now the light pendulums:

(Base) \ 2
5 \ 2 = 2.5 ; Then we round up to three for light, and down 2 two for darkness. Then we add 1 to light for the upgraded bonus, making 4. Since we have 5 pendulums, we multiply both Light and darkness' production from the pendulum by 5, thus making 20 for light and 10 for darkness.

Add the darkness part to the towers Quanta Production and we get 70. So our final results are:

70  :darkness and 20  :light

Ready to be divided into the total quanta consumption.

silux

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg321157#msg321157
« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2011, 02:27:00 pm »

Offline UTAlan

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg348635#msg348635
« Reply #138 on: June 09, 2011, 07:44:54 pm »
I simplified my QI Tool (http://www.elements.alanbeam.net/), cleaning up the code a bit and giving it a cleaner UI. Hopefully this is closer to what would go in the Elements Resources page when the time comes for that. Also added a deck image option.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg348651#msg348651
« Reply #139 on: June 09, 2011, 08:23:45 pm »
I simplified my QI Tool (http://www.quantum-index.com/), cleaning up the code a bit and giving it a cleaner UI. Hopefully this is closer to what would go in the Elements Resources page when the time comes for that. Also added a deck image option.
+bookmark. I've been hoping something like would be made for a long time. Props to you.

How does it factor in things like producing creatures, pests, immolation, nova/supernova, soul catchers, luciferin, pendulums, and upgrades? (Sorry if this is a lot of questions - I'm just really curious :) )
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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg348654#msg348654
« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2011, 08:37:54 pm »
How does it factor in things like producing creatures, pests, immolation, nova/supernova, soul catchers, luciferin, pendulums, and upgrades?
QI is COST / # PILLARS, with the assumption that a pillar generates 5 quanta (on average) per game. I modified the formula a bit to account for these other cards, doing COST / GENERATION, which is broken down by element. For example:

* Aether Pillar: 0 cost/5 :aether generation
* Aether Tower: 0 cost/6 :aether generation
* Aether Pendulum (nonupped): 0 cost/2.5 :aether generation/2.5 Mark generation
* Aether Pendulum (upped): 0 cost/3.5 :aether generation/2.5 Mark generation
* Devourer: 2 :darkness cost/1 :earth cost/5 :darkness generation
* Cremation: 0 cost/9 :fire generation/1 generation for all other elements
* Nova: 0 cost/1 generation for all elements
* Supernova: 2 :entropy cost/2 generation for all elements

(In the end, I actually do COST / (GENERATION / 5) to keep the formula consistent with the generally accepted QI values, but the result is the same.)

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg348660#msg348660
« Reply #141 on: June 09, 2011, 08:47:48 pm »
Awesome. I love that it can handle immo/nova bows as well.

Do you have any formulas for Soul Catcher/Luciferin? Those should like they would be the most difficult.
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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg348666#msg348666
« Reply #142 on: June 09, 2011, 09:09:44 pm »
Right now? I'm not handling them well. Soul Catcher has 2 :death/3 :death generation (depending on upgrade), while Luciferin has 0. :/

Ideally, I'd pick an average value of expected quanta generated per game for each of these cards. While it wouldn't be perfect, neither is pillar generation. I'm open to suggestions for average generated quanta per game for these cards.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg348674#msg348674
« Reply #143 on: June 09, 2011, 09:23:41 pm »
Right now? I'm not handling them well. Soul Catcher has 2 :death/3 :death generation (depending on upgrade), while Luciferin has 0. :/

Ideally, I'd pick an average value of expected quanta generated per game for each of these cards. While it wouldn't be perfect, neither is pillar generation. I'm open to suggestions for average generated quanta per game for these cards.
Is it feasible for the quanta generation of one card to be calculated based on other cards in the deck? For example, you might base the light quanta generation of luciferin off of the number of ability-less creatures in the deck.

 

anything
blarg: