Ask the Idea Guru

[OldTrees]

Elephant | Bull Elephant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36771.0.html) balance check. please

Does it take any damage if it would kill its target?
If no then it would be compared to a 4hp Otyugh|5hp Otyugh.
The combat is worth less and more than a 4hp|5hp devour 6|7
The stats are worth 3|4+2=5|6
Total = 11|11 (13-2 from upgrade)

If yes then it would be compared to a 3|1 with 2 3|4 damage CC bolts.
A 3|1[4|1] is worth 3|4.
2 3|4 damage CC bolts are worth less than 3.6|4.8 (6/10 x 4 +2card).
So it would be worth less than 6.6|7.3 (8.8-1.5).
(Casting , Activation) costs of (4|5, 1|1) would be better.

It's been a long time, eh?

Could you join Chain of Atlas (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,35839.0.html), Bonefish (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36760.0.html) and Storm Wand (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36761.0.html) threads and discuss about balance and usefulness of these cards?

Chains of Atlas reply
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35839.msg493291#msg493291
Bonefish reply
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36760.msg493297#msg493297
Storm Wand reply
It is almost identical to Owl's Eye. If Storm Wand were balanced then either Storm Wand or Owl's Eye would be strictly superior to the other. This is a major problem.

[Rutarete]

Just considering attack and Hp, how much looseness can you allow before drawing the line that signifies the end of a niche?

[OldTrees]

Just considering attack and Hp, how much looseness can you allow before drawing the line that signifies the end of a niche?

There are 4 stages
Need: The element needs something in this slot.
Value: The element would value something in this slot
Neutral: The element doesn't care. What else does it bring to the element?
Harmful: The element would be harmed by the addition. What else does it bring that justifies this imposition on existing cards?

These stages do not have constant ranges and are influenced by existing cards however I will give a rough estimate.
Need: Nothing within +4/-4 attack
Value: Nothing within +2/-2 attack
Neutral: Nothing with identical attack and within hp range
Harmful: Same attack and hp range

So on one hand if there is a gap of 5 attack (ex. no creatures with 3,4,5,6 or 7 attack in the element) then there is a niche seeking a creature (with 5 attack).
On the other hand if a card has an ability that would be valuable to the game it may be able to justify having the exact same stats as an existing creature.

[Drake_XIV]

I'm not sure if you've noticed the change in ability considering the last post on it, but can I get a balance check on:
  Levii | Levii (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36738.0.html)

Also, is this card intruding on Wyrm's attack niche?  Or does the difference in abilities make that void?
  Altiuiri | Altiuiri (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36789.0.html)

[OldTrees]

I'm not sure if you've noticed the change in ability considering the last post on it, but can I get a balance check on:
  Levii | Levii (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36738.0.html)

Also, is this card intruding on Wyrm's attack niche?  Or does the difference in abilities make that void?
  Altiuiri | Altiuiri (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36789.0.html)

I had not noticed the change in Levii.
Levii is similar to a Shrieker (8|3 / 10|4  :Burrow for 8 + 1card) except it is cheaper (the higher activation cost is equivalent to +1 cost) and floods nearby squares. It is probably too cheap.

Wyrm is 6|3 and 10|3 stats with an upkeep cost. However that ability of Altiuiri probably would require a higher cost (and less efficient stats) to pay for the Mass Reverse Time.

[Drake_XIV]

Regarding Altiuiri | Altiuiri (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36789.0.html), would a +1 to ability cost be enough to balance it, or should the cost to play also be raised by +1?

[OldTrees]

Regarding Altiuiri | Altiuiri (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36789.0.html), would a +1 to ability cost be enough to balance it, or should the cost to play also be raised by +1?

I am not sure but I think both of those are underestimates. Compare it to other mass CC.

[Drake_XIV]

Hm, but in that case, isn't it UP with any raised cost, better as it is?  And, as you've suggested, I've looked at other mass CC.

Rain of Fire costs 7 / 5 , but deals a set amount of damage only to the opponent's side.
Unupgraded Pandemonium costs 3 and has a random chance to inflict a negative effect on both sides of the field while upgraded costs 5   and only targets the opponent's side.
Thunderstorm costs 2 , but only deals one damage and only targets the opponent's side.

The closest that comes is unupgraded Pandemonium as Tempest targets both sides of the fields and their is a random aspect in the chance to reverse.  Besides affecting your own side, it does not guarantee affecting any creatures besides Spark and Ball Lightning, setting the minimal chance at 50% for 1 hp creatures.

Would you say there is any flaw with my comparisons?

[OldTrees]

Hm, but in that case, isn't it UP with any raised cost, better as it is?  And, as you've suggested, I've looked at other mass CC.

Rain of Fire costs 7 / 5 , but deals a set amount of damage only to the opponent's side.
Unupgraded Pandemonium costs 3 and has a random chance to inflict a negative effect on both sides of the field while upgraded costs 5   and only targets the opponent's side.
Thunderstorm costs 2 , but only deals one damage and only targets the opponent's side.

The closest that comes is unupgraded Pandemonium as Tempest targets both sides of the fields and their is a random aspect in the chance to reverse.  Besides affecting your own side, it does not guarantee affecting any creatures besides Spark and Ball Lightning, setting the minimal chance at 50% for 1 hp creatures.

Would you say there is any flaw with my comparisons?

I would include details like Tempest being repeatable and currently only being priced at 1 + 3 per activation.
Likewise I would include that 2X Tempests would be equivalent to 2 sided mass Reverse Time for creatures of Xhp or less with mixed results for creatures with more hp.
Also comparing to single use repeated cards like Owl's Eye and Eternity would be wise. (mind the detail that Weapons expend the weapon slot ~3 quanta in value)

Owl's Eye's Snipe costs roughly 3 + 1 card + 2 per target.
Fire Storm costs 7 + 1 card
Fire Storm = Snipe at 2 targets.
Eternity's Rewind costs roughly 5 + 1card + 3 per target.
Mass Rewind = Eternity's Rewind at 2 targets
Mass Rewind costs 11 + 1 card
For 10 + 1 card, Tempest achieves 3 activations.

My gut reaction to Tempest seems to be wrong.

[Drake_XIV]

Just a few fallacies with your comparison.

I would include details like Tempest being repeatable and currently only being priced at 4 + 3 per activation.
Altiuiri costs 4  to play Tempest costs 3 to use.

[...]

Eternity's Rewind costs roughly 6 + 1 card + 3 per target.
Eternity costs 6 both unupgraded and upgraded.  If it's upgraded, then it's 2
Mass Rewind = Eternity's Rewind at 2 targets
Mass Rewind costs 12 (unupgraded) + 1 card
If using Upgraded Eternity, then the cost is 10
For 10 + 1 card, Tempest achieves 2 activations.

And seeing that one Tempest is only 50% max to return, Mass Rewind = 2 Tempest.  Unless I'm wrong, is it not balanced as is?

I apologize for making this complicated.  I just want to flush out any possible problems.

[OldTrees]

Just a few fallacies with your comparison.

I would include details like Tempest being repeatable and currently only being priced at 4 + 3 per activation.
Altiuiri costs 4  to play Tempest costs 3 to use.

[...]

Eternity's Rewind costs roughly 6 + 1 card + 3 per target.
Eternity costs 6 both unupgraded and upgraded.  If it's upgraded, then it's 2
Mass Rewind = Eternity's Rewind at 2 targets
Mass Rewind costs 12 (unupgraded) + 1 card
If using Upgraded Eternity, then the cost is 10
For 10 + 1 card, Tempest achieves 2 activations.

And seeing that one Tempest is only 50% max to return, Mass Rewind = 2 Tempest.  Unless I'm wrong, is it not balanced as is?

I apologize for making this complicated.  I just want to flush out any possible problems.

You missed the step where I separated the skill from the body. The 4|4 body is worth 3 + 1 card hence the ability costs 1 + 3  per use. I had double checked the numbers.

You also missed my conclusion: "My gut reaction to Tempest seems to be wrong."

[EmeraldTiger]

Do you agree this should become a card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36805.0.html