Does God Exist?

[Demagog]

On another note, I don't fully understand the rational behind not believing. Let's say you choose to believe and live a good Christian (or X religion) life. It turns out there is no God. Oh well, at least you had a positive impact on the world. If it turns out there IS a God, you get to have a big party.

If you choose not to believe (let's say you still live a moral life), and it turns out there is no God, congradulations! You were right! But it doesn't matter since you'll never know you were right since your "self" is gone as soon as your brain stops working! And if it turns out there IS a God, and you didn't believe, you get to go to a bad place. Sucks for you.

In short:
Believing: Worst case: Nothing, and you never know you were wrong. Best case: You get to have a big party in Heaven (or w/e your religion says).
Not Believing: Worst case: You go to Hell (or the bad place for your religion...) and have no fun at all. Best case: Nothing, and you never know you were right.

I hope you don't mind my popping in here, but if you're genuinely interested in one person's "rational" behind not believing, here's mine:

I was raised in an extremely strict religious family.  I spent the majority of my life praising God, and going to church.  I missed my entire childhood because of it.  I didn't go to school dances, I couldn't play sports, I wasn't allowed to date until my mid-20's, I couldn't have friends outside of the religion.  Now that I've escaped that environment, do you really expect me to have a desire to return to organized religion?  Yes, I understand that most religions are much less time-consuming and strict.  But that does not change the fact that I want to live my life to the most, now.  I've already missed so much, and I'm not going to let life slip away again. 

Living the real "christian life" does not just imply being kind to everyone and donating to charity.  It also implies spending precious time going to church and studying the bible, as well as giving up some things in your life (for me, one of those things would be homosexuality, a core part of who I am, as I am bisexual).  By assuming that you have an infinite amount of time, I strongly believe that you will never appreciate life like I do.  I know this because I have never appreciated life more than I do now, now that I know that time is short and life is precious.  We are not as special as we think we are.    What makes us so great, that we deserve an infinity of time in heaven?  We are heavily flawed biological machines, lucky to live 70 years.  To me, that's not something to be depressed over, it's something to feel humbled and honored by: something to celebrate.

I'm grateful to have this tiny snippet in time, and I'm not going to waste it on delusions that maybe I'll have more time than I actually do.

As a side note, the mere fact that I can be sent to "hell" for not believing in a deity who demands unquestioning faith in his impossible-to-prove existence turns me away from Christianity.  In my humble opinion, that is not a God of love, that is a God of insecurity and power-hunger.

I'm not going to debate whether God exists or not.  Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.  I believe there is no God, and I have enough proof of my own to let me sleep well at night.  I appreciate the benefits of religion, and I'm glad it gives people hope and purpose.  I think this thread is unnecessary, because -- as was pointed out, earlier -- there will probably never be an answer.  It would be nice if people would simply realize this, and stop being insecure about their own beliefs.

On the off chance you've never known this, you don't have to be a "hardcore" Christian to be a good one. I haven't gone to church in years, and I probably have gone to church less than fifteen times in my life. I don't think my religious beliefs have restricted me in any way. Religion is what you make of it, not what others tell you to make of it. I just figured if you hadn't realized that yet, you might reevaluate your reasoning because your reasoning seems to be based off of not having realized that. Although your second to last paragraph is also part of you reasoning, but God's reasoning is probably something we could never understand, so there's really no argument for this as the only conclusions a person can come to are opinions.

While your life philosophy is good, believing God doesn't exist is not required to have that philosophy.

[Kurohami]

I think in pepokish's reply, he is not talking about believing in god restricted him, he is talking about religion restricted him. Most of the times, one can choose how much they will dedicate into their beliefs, but sometimes not. In pepokish's case, his family is very religious, and that will restrict him from enjoying many aspect of his life. In China, most people believed Buddhism at least to some extend, but that can range from meditating every once in a while to visiting the monasteries everyday and still higher to becoming a monk or nun. Would you say meditating every once in a while restrict your life? No. Would you say visiting the monasteries everyday restrict your life? Somewhat. Do you say becoming a monk or a nun restrict your life? Definitely, a monk or a nun has to follow many strict codes, they are not allowed to drink, to consume meat, to marry or even have any romantic contact with a member of opposite sex.

[Demagog]

I think in pepokish's reply, he is not talking about believing in god restricted him, he is talking about religion restricted him. Most of the times, one can choose how much they will dedicate into their beliefs, but sometimes not. In pepokish's case, his family is very religious, and that will restrict him from enjoying many aspect of his life. In China, most people believed Buddhism at least to some extend, but that can range from meditating every once in a while to visiting the monasteries everyday and still higher to becoming a monk or nun. Would you say meditating every once in a while restrict your life? No. Would you say visiting the monasteries everyday restrict your life? Somewhat. Do you say becoming a monk or a nun restrict your life? Definitely, a monk or a nun has to follow many strict codes, they are not allowed to drink, to consume meat, to marry or even have any romantic contact with a member of opposite sex.

Yes, that's what I was talking about, he said his religion restricted him. If you go back and read my post, I never said believing in God restricted him.

None of your examples show people restricting their lives. A person is free to live in any way they choose, and since each of your examples is a choice, those people want to live that life. If your life is restricted, it means something is keeping you from living the way you want to live, not something is keeping you from living the way someone else wants you to live.

[Kurohami]

"God doesn't exist is not required to have that philosophy."
That's where I'm coming from.
And my examples are not always a choice. Many people became a monk or a nun to seek protection from their foes, since the monasteries would protect those who have faith in the Buddha. Some monks were orphans adopted by the monasteries. They don't really have choice because they have no means of survival outside the monasteries.

[Demagog]

I was talking about his philosophy on life, not restrictions. The two are somewhat related in his case, but not entirely.

And your whole monk argument is really based on what perspective you take.

You were born into a certain life, and you wouldn't go live the life of a monk because you believe that wouldn't make you happy (for many different reasons). Another person may have been "born" into "monkhood," and they wouldn't leave for the life you have because they believe that wouldn't make them happy. I am sure there have been people in the latter situation who have chosen to leave the monastery to lead a "normal" life and ended up being perfectly happy though. It all depends on what you believe will make you happy.

[Kurohami]

Okay, that's very enlightening.

[PuppyChow]

I was raised in an extremely strict religious family.  I spent the majority of my life praising God, and going to church.  I missed my entire childhood because of it.  I didn't go to school dances, I couldn't play sports, I wasn't allowed to date until my mid-20's, I couldn't have friends outside of the religion.  Now that I've escaped that environment, do you really expect me to have a desire to return to organized religion?  Yes, I understand that most religions are much less time-consuming and strict.  But that does not change the fact that I want to live my life to the most, now.  I've already missed so much, and I'm not going to let life slip away again.

As you've mentioned, most religions aren't that strict. I wake up 15 minutes earlier than usual to read the Bible. I lose nothing from my social life due to that. I go to Church every Sunday. For an hour. And I also do some mission work, but a few friends I have do it with me so that's actually fun. I'm a 3 sport athlete (high school), and I have no clue what religion would keep you from playing sports.

Living the real "christian life" does not just imply being kind to everyone and donating to charity.  It also implies spending precious time going to church and studying the bible, as well as giving up some things in your life (for me, one of those things would be homosexuality, a core part of who I am, as I am bisexual).

God loves you no matter who you are, bisexual, homosexual, or heterosexual. Being any of those does not restrict you from heaven (according to my religion, anyway). And as said before, waking up 15 minutes earlier won't kill somebody, nor will going to church for an hour a week. And if you say doing mission work is "wasting precious time," you have no idea how wrong you are. Knowing you are doing something to help people in need is one of the best feelings possible.

By assuming that you have an infinite amount of time, I strongly believe that you will never appreciate life like I do.  I know this because I have never appreciated life more than I do now, now that I know that time is short and life is precious. We are not as special as we think we are.    What makes us so great, that we deserve an infinity of time in heaven?  We are heavily flawed biological machines, lucky to live 70 years.  To me, that's not something to be depressed over, it's something to feel humbled and honored by: something to celebrate. I'm grateful to have this tiny snippet in time, and I'm not going to waste it on delusions that maybe I'll have more time than I actually do.

I agree that time is short and life is precious on Earth. I also think that when I DO die, I get to go to a better place. That gives me something to look forward to, but it doesn't make me view life as something bad. Celebrating life IS the essence of religion.

As a side note, the mere fact that I can be sent to "hell" for not believing in a deity who demands unquestioning faith in his impossible-to-prove existence turns me away from Christianity.  In my humble opinion, that is not a God of love, that is a God of insecurity and power-hunger.

God is loving, gracious, and merciful, yes. But he is also holy, JUST, and hateful of sinners. Humankind is sinful. That's a fact; nobody except for Jesus is, was, or will be without sin. Except Jesus died for us on the cross FOR these sins, allowing us into heaven. If you believe Jesus did so, you're saved and will enter heaven. If you don't, then your sins are not forgiven, and you go to hell. So yes, you go to hell for not believing, but there's a reason for that: your sins weren't forgiven.

But that's only Christianity, so I can't speak for other religions .


I hope that clears up some misconceptions you seem to have about Christianity, or most forms of Christianity at least.

[xdude]

Just popping in and saying that most "Christians" only believe in God so they don't go to hell. No love, just fear. That's not saying that any of you guys is like that.

[Zigabogado]

Just popping in and saying that most "Christians" only believe in God so they don't go to hell. No love, just fear. That's not saying that any of you guys is like that.

What? Are you retarded, or am I missing out on a secret "We don't love god" organization.  Christians, don't be religious  just so they don't go to hell. It's their believes, and moral fiber. One would not simply join a religion, only to feel that they would not go to hell. They 'Believe' in god because it gives them faith, not immunity....

Learn your stuff, bud.

[vrt]

As you've mentioned, most religions aren't that strict.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/precepts.html

Here you go. This is the core of your every belief. I suggest you follow it, then.



Afraid we won't be seeing you around much anymore.

[PuppyChow]

As you've mentioned, most religions aren't that strict.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/precepts.html

Here you go. This is the core of your every belief. I suggest you follow it, then.



Afraid we won't be seeing you around much anymore.

Funny thing about those: Many are from the old testament, and those laws were for before Jesus came. When he came to Earth, his teachings became the new way.

And the verses AFTER the old testament must be taken into context.

Let's say a piano teacher is teaching a (girl) student to play a hard piano piece. The student cries out "Oh my god, this thing is so hard!"

And I quote her:

Oh my god, this thing is so hard!

Now, if you didn't know the background, what would you think that's implying? That's what quoting many verses of the Bible are like: without analyzing the word choice, allowing for translation problems, understanding the setting, understanding the time period, and such, you can come out with an entirely different meaning than intended. Granted, some verses can stand alone, but many DO require more knowledge to get the full meaning out of.

[vrt]

As you've mentioned, most religions aren't that strict.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/precepts.html

Here you go. This is the core of your every belief. I suggest you follow it, then.



Afraid we won't be seeing you around much anymore.

Funny thing about those: Many are from the old testament, and those laws were for before Jesus came. When he came to Earth, his teachings became the new way.

And the verses AFTER the old testament must be taken into context.

Let's say a piano teacher is teaching a (girl) student to play a hard piano piece. The student cries out "Oh my god, this thing is so hard!"

And I quote her:

Oh my god, this thing is so hard!

Now, if you didn't know the background, what would you think that's implying? That's what quoting many verses of the Bible are like: without analyzing the word choice, allowing for translation problems, understanding the setting, understanding the time period, and such, you can come out with an entirely different meaning than intended. Granted, some verses can stand alone, but many DO require more knowledge to get the full meaning out of.

Nothing ever 'overwrote' the acts a woman has to go through when on her period. And that's not a single example, there's plenty.

As far as Jesus' teachings being 'current'.. Let's quote him: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."