853
Trio & Quartet / Re: Smokey Bear - "Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires" - Pillarless AI3 EM Farmer
« on: March 26, 2011, 08:14:36 am »
Updated the OP with 1.27 stats for 200 games.
Guest Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by a guest. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
854
Duo-Decks / Re: Aerial Smooshing - AI3 EM deck
« on: March 26, 2011, 08:11:53 am »
Updated the OP with 1.27 stats.
855
Tournament Archive / Re: Eastern Tournament - 26 March 2011 - Fate - Unupgraded
« on: March 26, 2011, 07:21:43 am »
kirchj33 - 2
Mark_Tran - 0
Mark_Tran - 0
856
General Discussion / Re: BH/Discord Decks for AI3 EM's - Stats & Discussion
« on: March 23, 2011, 11:48:56 pm »So I was trying this deck out, and as I do a lot of FG farming, accidentally challenged a False God...Haha that's awesome. Looks like you used the TADAbow. I'd imagine quanta control would be a difficult way to tackle a False God with double draws, but +karma for posting
Anyway, gave Hecate a thrashing, she only played what you see. Pretty sweet deck
It's nice, but after some time it gets annoying, even with Precogs the deck will get fail draws frequently.Looks like it lacks the healing power for REALLY efficient score gain, but I'm sure when you reach a billiondy score you've gotta change things up. I hear you on the steals though. When playing Mono Darkness (particularly Bootza's) I noticed that each AI3 deck has almost exactly 2 gamebreakers, in which 2 steals is the perfect complement. Unfortunately, I've found that when testing any AI3 score grinder besides mono darkness, it only decreases score gain in the long run, even if it saves you from pulling your hair out at times. However, steals seem like a great idea for making any T50 grinding modifications.
But I definitely recommend taking a Steal in your SNBows, that card is sweet.
857
General Discussion / Deck Strategy - Final Healing - Complete with in-depth links and analysis
« on: March 23, 2011, 11:35:45 pm »
For those of you that don't already know... I have a mild obsession with EM's so I wanted to motivate a little bit of discussion with the purpose of evolving decks for efficiency.
It can be well documented and researched that score gain all comes from maximizing the speed of a deck while combining this with an ability to score EMs.
A good place to start for this information would be here:
AI3
TTW Study 3.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21865.0.html) (when it is more complete)
TTW Study 2.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17903.0.html)
AI3 EM True Efficiency Study 2.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21923.msg306645#msg306645)
FG
FGei (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html)
In order to document possibilities for building an efficient EM deck, I would like to compile a list of the mechanics used for scoring those EMs.
AI3
Concepts which work:
Healing-
Healing can really be comprised of three mechanics to gain EM's:
Straight Heals-
This strategy consists of beating your opponent senseless in the best way possible, and then throwing all of your heals just before winning.
This can be done in a mono life fashion (ex.: USEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10563.0.html), Pepoker (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,15361.0.html))
Or... using some off-life element combination of damage dealers and then referring to heals after (ex.: MGAL (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12849.0.html), Angry Santa (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12659.0.html), Aerial Smooshing (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21643.msg295915#msg295915), Smokey Bear (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21375.msg291949#msg291949), to name a few...)
Supported Heals-
This mixes in a bit of other life gain cards along with final healing to gain EMs.
Some of the stronger decks (ex.: SCEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18665.0.html), GAEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21620.0.html), Healbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11831.0.html))
Shutdown + Heals-
The idea is to prevent AI3 damage from coming in and then topping off life with final heals.
Strongest current example: TADAbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22518.msg316586#msg316586), some other examples included in the thread: BH/Discord Decks (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23293.0.html)
Some other ways of achieving this goal with lesser results would be to mix in earthquakes or CC.
Miracle + Final Heal-
The problem here is that two cards need to be played in combination, thus decreasing the consistency of scoring EMs. Additionally, enough quanta must be drawn in order to play miracle, which goes against the rush concept and decreases efficiency
Example: Holy Angels (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18368.0.html)
To say this works is a bit of a stretch.
Life Siphon-
This concept actually has the potential to be a stronger final heal than Healing, but it works best with Pests, which decrease the speed of the deck, thus decreasing the efficiency.
Many mono darkness decks integrate this concept, and usually work in conjunction with Vampires/Vampiric Daggers.
For a good example, take a look at Bootza's Mono Darkness: Upgraded AI3 EM Grinder (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20936.msg287999#msg287999) or Essence's Totally Upgraded AI3 Mastery Despoiler (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11412.0.html)
I should mention that mono-darkness has many healing cards in general, so several strong decks exist that integrate these cards:
Example: Torb's Daywalker (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17641.0.html)
Concepts that currently don't work
SOG/Sanctuary/Purify-
The concept is anti-rush, and will most likely need to be supplemented by final healing to provide EMs.
SOD/Stone Skin/Granite Skin-
All this is doing is increasing your total HP, and although you may finish with 100+ HP, unless you are topped off, you cannot actually achieve EM.
Shields + Final Heals-
A bit too much of a stall mechanic to have AI3 efficiency. Has some potential in Wings or Dim Shield if supplemented by final heals, but yet to be integrated with any mainstream success.
AI3 Conclusion
Healing seems to be the king of the jungle in AI3, and until another card is released, or the mechanics are changed/current cards are buffed this should remain unchanged. The key to pushing deck evolution is to integrate it in ways that have not yet been used.
T50 Concepts
Most of the mechanics at play with AI3 should work with T50, but farming for score tends to be slightly less efficient.
AI5/FG Concepts
These are a bit more of a grey area, and farming FGs/AI5 for score is currently viewed as more of a bonus as opposed to a means to an end. The primary goal of farming FGs seems to be for gaining electrum or gaining electrum supplemented by some score gain.
Stalling + Damage Calculation-
This mechanic hinges upon trying to win the battle first, followed by an attempt to try and calculate damage so that SOG/Sanctuary healing kicks in before your weapon fires the killshot.
Examples: (CCYB (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9545.0.html), Eternal Chaos (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20173.0.html))
RoL + Hope-
The "Hope" here is that you will face an opponent with enough lack of PC/CC that you can block all damage by the end of the match so that you are topped off upon winning to register an EM.
Examples: (Perpetual Light (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14312.0.html), Control (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5026.0.html))
AI5/FG Conclusion
Again, EMs seem to be an afterthought vs. these decks, but they are nice to have nonetheless.
If anyone would like to add mechanics or decks which may be useful to the community I will add them. The idea is that this compilation can be a useful learning tool and help to push the efforts of our games towards more EMs!
It can be well documented and researched that score gain all comes from maximizing the speed of a deck while combining this with an ability to score EMs.
A good place to start for this information would be here:
AI3
TTW Study 3.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21865.0.html) (when it is more complete)
TTW Study 2.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17903.0.html)
AI3 EM True Efficiency Study 2.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21923.msg306645#msg306645)
FG
FGei (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html)
In order to document possibilities for building an efficient EM deck, I would like to compile a list of the mechanics used for scoring those EMs.
AI3
Concepts which work:
Healing-
Healing can really be comprised of three mechanics to gain EM's:
Straight Heals-
This strategy consists of beating your opponent senseless in the best way possible, and then throwing all of your heals just before winning.
This can be done in a mono life fashion (ex.: USEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10563.0.html), Pepoker (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,15361.0.html))
Or... using some off-life element combination of damage dealers and then referring to heals after (ex.: MGAL (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12849.0.html), Angry Santa (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12659.0.html), Aerial Smooshing (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21643.msg295915#msg295915), Smokey Bear (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21375.msg291949#msg291949), to name a few...)
Supported Heals-
This mixes in a bit of other life gain cards along with final healing to gain EMs.
Some of the stronger decks (ex.: SCEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18665.0.html), GAEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21620.0.html), Healbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11831.0.html))
Shutdown + Heals-
The idea is to prevent AI3 damage from coming in and then topping off life with final heals.
Strongest current example: TADAbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22518.msg316586#msg316586), some other examples included in the thread: BH/Discord Decks (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23293.0.html)
Some other ways of achieving this goal with lesser results would be to mix in earthquakes or CC.
Miracle + Final Heal-
The problem here is that two cards need to be played in combination, thus decreasing the consistency of scoring EMs. Additionally, enough quanta must be drawn in order to play miracle, which goes against the rush concept and decreases efficiency
Example: Holy Angels (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18368.0.html)
To say this works is a bit of a stretch.
Life Siphon-
This concept actually has the potential to be a stronger final heal than Healing, but it works best with Pests, which decrease the speed of the deck, thus decreasing the efficiency.
Many mono darkness decks integrate this concept, and usually work in conjunction with Vampires/Vampiric Daggers.
For a good example, take a look at Bootza's Mono Darkness: Upgraded AI3 EM Grinder (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20936.msg287999#msg287999) or Essence's Totally Upgraded AI3 Mastery Despoiler (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11412.0.html)
I should mention that mono-darkness has many healing cards in general, so several strong decks exist that integrate these cards:
Example: Torb's Daywalker (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17641.0.html)
Concepts that currently don't work
SOG/Sanctuary/Purify-
The concept is anti-rush, and will most likely need to be supplemented by final healing to provide EMs.
SOD/Stone Skin/Granite Skin-
All this is doing is increasing your total HP, and although you may finish with 100+ HP, unless you are topped off, you cannot actually achieve EM.
Shields + Final Heals-
A bit too much of a stall mechanic to have AI3 efficiency. Has some potential in Wings or Dim Shield if supplemented by final heals, but yet to be integrated with any mainstream success.
AI3 Conclusion
Healing seems to be the king of the jungle in AI3, and until another card is released, or the mechanics are changed/current cards are buffed this should remain unchanged. The key to pushing deck evolution is to integrate it in ways that have not yet been used.
T50 Concepts
Most of the mechanics at play with AI3 should work with T50, but farming for score tends to be slightly less efficient.
AI5/FG Concepts
These are a bit more of a grey area, and farming FGs/AI5 for score is currently viewed as more of a bonus as opposed to a means to an end. The primary goal of farming FGs seems to be for gaining electrum or gaining electrum supplemented by some score gain.
Stalling + Damage Calculation-
This mechanic hinges upon trying to win the battle first, followed by an attempt to try and calculate damage so that SOG/Sanctuary healing kicks in before your weapon fires the killshot.
Examples: (CCYB (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9545.0.html), Eternal Chaos (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20173.0.html))
RoL + Hope-
The "Hope" here is that you will face an opponent with enough lack of PC/CC that you can block all damage by the end of the match so that you are topped off upon winning to register an EM.
Examples: (Perpetual Light (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14312.0.html), Control (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5026.0.html))
AI5/FG Conclusion
Again, EMs seem to be an afterthought vs. these decks, but they are nice to have nonetheless.
If anyone would like to add mechanics or decks which may be useful to the community I will add them. The idea is that this compilation can be a useful learning tool and help to push the efforts of our games towards more EMs!
858
Rainbow Decks / Re: Crafty Name to Come Deck
« on: March 23, 2011, 08:17:26 am »
Perfectly answered Pika. I tested a version with -2 Abominations +1 Werewolf +1 Dragon but it was not as strong through 75 games. Additionally, werewolves have the disadvantage of not being able to launch in the odd game where you don't draw a SN early.
I've found from all this testing, that AW only has power in a PSN-type deck with 3 discords. Once the rainbow quanta has come out, you are better off being able to play another creature. So you really want to be able to play your AW early if you have it. For example, if you look at the deck structure of TADAbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22518.msg316586#msg316586) vs. TADA blue (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22147.msg302391#msg302391) you can see how AW fits in with one and not the other. I don't know that I can completely explain why, other than a guess and I tested each situation extensively to see which way was more efficient.
This is a tough decision, but I think it is more advantageous to be able to play alone without SN support for as long as possible with the AW. Not sure if I explained that clearly, but I think you can understand where I am going.Since you're not using any Darkness, won't Werewolfs be better than Abominations? And also, how does this help to get a more stable start? o.O(Side note: it may be a better idea to use an unupped Flying Weapon just so that it uses only yourquanta and doesn't interfere with your other, more important, quanta pools)
I've found from all this testing, that AW only has power in a PSN-type deck with 3 discords. Once the rainbow quanta has come out, you are better off being able to play another creature. So you really want to be able to play your AW early if you have it. For example, if you look at the deck structure of TADAbow (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22518.msg316586#msg316586) vs. TADA blue (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22147.msg302391#msg302391) you can see how AW fits in with one and not the other. I don't know that I can completely explain why, other than a guess and I tested each situation extensively to see which way was more efficient.
859
Rainbow Decks / Disc' EM (DEM) - AI3 Elemental Mastery Deck
« on: March 23, 2011, 02:25:37 am »
A BH/Discord deck for those who prefer a more stable start. I really hate using the unupped abominations, but they are the best entropy has to offer vs. AI3.
Abominations - Add Stability, slow to come out for the amount of damage they offer (high quanta/damage)
Werewolves - Help increase speed, decrease winning %
Dragons - Can get in the way sometimes as there are games you won't even put them out, overall helps prevent games from extending too long and getting stalled.
This deck is REALLY solid, and I feel it would be far superior to any other AI3 farmer if entropy was able to offer any legitimate rush-type characters. That being said, this deck is right up there in terms of efficiency, with USEM and the TADAbow. It at least offers farmers another solid alternative to their favorite deck.
Stat Time!:
If you wanna see how this compares to others I've tested, go --->here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23293.msg316945.html#new)
Thanks to Gumbeh for helping to improve this deck!
Abominations - Add Stability, slow to come out for the amount of damage they offer (high quanta/damage)
Werewolves - Help increase speed, decrease winning %
Dragons - Can get in the way sometimes as there are games you won't even put them out, overall helps prevent games from extending too long and getting stalled.
This deck is REALLY solid, and I feel it would be far superior to any other AI3 farmer if entropy was able to offer any legitimate rush-type characters. That being said, this deck is right up there in terms of efficiency, with USEM and the TADAbow. It at least offers farmers another solid alternative to their favorite deck.
Stat Time!:
| Games | TSE (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21923.msg300098#msg300098) | Avg. TTW | Avg. Sec./Game | Wins | Losses | EMs | Win % | EM % |
| 200 | 1386.09 | 7.62245 | 68.93 | 196 | 4 | 151 | 98 | 75.5 |
Thanks to Gumbeh for helping to improve this deck!
860
General Discussion / Re: BH/Discord Decks for AI3 EM's - Stats & Discussion
« on: March 23, 2011, 12:27:41 am »I was only gone for ONE DAYThe way I understood it when zanz came into chat is that the higher one's score, the closer they will become to emulating a false god with their T500 deck, i.e. on a scale of 1-60 as you move towards 60, you will gain more benefits such as double draw, double/triple mark, more hp, etc.
and look at the big news I missed...
editing my original post
Takes too much mind power to play. I think USEM is better for grinding because it can be consistent, and you don't need to pay attention to what you are doing.The time difference between TADAbow and USEM, for example, is balanced out by the EM rate difference. The whole point of the posted stats is that these decks actually CAN give similar results to USEM in terms of score gain when grinding for hours if you put in the time to learn how to operate them. At this point for me, they are almost as brainless as USEM. However, as stated above, they may not be for everyone. Just wanted people to know there are other options out there.
It really shows in the time difference. Especially when some people are farming for hours a day. 10 seconds a game can make a lot of difference.
Thank you to everyone for the kind compliments.
861
Deck Help / Re: My Tournament Decks
« on: March 22, 2011, 09:15:33 pm »
Very useful information here. Great tool for deckbuilding. With your record of success it is a helpful learning tool to be able to correlate tournament results with the decks that produced them.
862
General Discussion / Re: BH/Discord Decks for AI3 EM's - Stats & Discussion
« on: March 22, 2011, 07:23:49 pm »I just tried O'EM'G, -3 steel golems, +3 grabby and went 5-0, all EMs. I might also consider -1 LS, -1 Peggy, +1 Archangel, +1 Elite Wyrm. Dunno. Maybe the extra cost is too much risk.I tested this variant, as I believe Willin3 did as well. It can be a monster and really tear through things, but overall lacks the stability to be a reliable farming deck. The reasons are twofold:
1. Grabbies require time to launch, thus the presence of a SN. There are games which this will simply not happen. Steel Golems + Discord alone are enough to push you to a win if no SN comes.
2. 6 hp seems to be the threshold in AI3 that you want to aim for with your main damage dealer. CC will quickly wipe out your early creatures with 4 or less hp.
Now that I am a couple thousand more games experienced with BH/Discord, efficiency with such a deck may be more of an issue of intelligently launching your grabbies after a BH or Discord to avoid CC. This variant may be worth a second look with an extensive study, but I would tend to think it has some limitations.
Edit:
I feel, after much testing, that a PSNbow will never quite reach the levels of USEM because of its mechanic. TADA Blue is as close as it gets, although O'EM'G certainly has room for a little improvement. For some other great non-BH/Discord PSN's I would recommend the well known SCEM (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18665.0.html) and GAEMs (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21620.0.html). Both are included in the Efficiency Study (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21620.0.html).
863
General Discussion / Re: BH/Discord Decks for AI3 EM's - Stats & Discussion
« on: March 22, 2011, 07:00:48 pm »Very nice work here.Ty sir. Same to you.
I appreciate all your help, thoughts, and insight you have given along the way.
864
General Discussion / Re: AI3 EM True Efficiency Study ver. 2.0 (1.27)
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:00:42 pm »
200 games posted for all decks included. I will start from zero with USEMosis as I did not find results competitive with those posted by Willng3 through 100 games. I will post 200 games of USEMosis within the next couple of days and update.