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Jumbalumba

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg26208#msg26208
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2010, 12:05:36 am »
Statistics should average out in the long run anyway, i.e., it'll be that all gods are played equally if it is entirely random. There is no practical point in assuming all gods are played the same amount. Statistics from a small sample size are flawed anyway.

They may be a point to having both % wins though to really see the divergence.

PuppyChow

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg26211#msg26211
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2010, 12:10:59 am »
If you look at my FG topic and compare those with what Elements Statistics says, for 1.17 it rose 6% after averaging %s instead, for 1.18 -7%, for 1.19 -4%.

Though over time they should average out, I'm thinking we'll never have enough time for each version to get that much of a sample size.

And since we're mainly working with smaller sample sizes (72 games at most for 1.17, 27 for 1.18, and in the 50s now I think for 1.19), this is a more reliable way.

FrozenFlame

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg26566#msg26566
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2010, 02:59:27 pm »
Hey:)

I'm sorry for the delay, i reckon i didn't see the posts earlier.

I understand what you mean PuppyChow. If one has way too many fights against one specific FG compared to all the others (say up to 10 fights against each FG but 30 fights against one very easy, or one very hard), then the total win rate will be influenced alot by this unequilibrium between battles.

But, for a fact, if one tends to go against more of a specific group of FGs and less against another (or if FGs have different chance of being fought against between each others), its certain that for that player, it matters more to beat the FGs he uses to face most of the time.
Although with same deck you and i can face different (common) FGs (For instance i myself go alot against miracle sometimes. And seism. But i almost never see Ferox. I even thought it was taken off FGs list for some time).

Averaging the single win rates is also not a bad way but it's not perfect also.

Hum. I'm thinking about it and indeed i don't know which way would be the better. Averaging the win rates can also be bad if we do indeed face some FGs more often than others.

For cases like this one (http://elementsstatistics.comxa.com/getstatistics.php?dv=107358030), we have the following average of win ratios:
(100+100+0+100+0+80+80+100+33+57+86+22+33+56+60)/15  = 907/15 = 60.47% win rate (sorted by total of games played). According to the actual system: 55%.

Now, say you'll face Paradox (no, it didn't exist in 1.17 but the case would be similar if you had never faced Obliterator: You faced him only once. That was close to happening).
So, according to the current system:
if you win: (21+27+1)/88 ~ 55.68%
if you lose: (21+27)/88 ~54.55%


According to the win-rate-avg:
if you win:
100+(100+100+0+100+0+80+80+100+33+57+86+22+33+56+60)/16 = 1007/16 ~ 62.94%
if you lose:
0+(100+100+0+100+0+80+80+100+33+57+86+22+33+56+60)/16 = 907/16 ~ 56.69%

With 88 games played, the result of this battle may vary the total win rate from 54.55% to 55.68% (current system), or from 56.69% to 62.94% (win-rate average). Should one single game out of 88 be responsible for such a big difference (out of 88 games) ~ 6 to 7% with the win-rate average system? I'm not sure.
Of course, this is normal to happen (mathematically) if we calculate this way since we have a totally new entry in the formula.

This is quite interesting though, is there a better way to calculate the total win rate ? Hum. Either way i would like to read more opinions regarding this.

Silkenfist

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg26568#msg26568
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2010, 03:11:28 pm »
Actually, you just delivered the best argument why the win rates should be averaged. After all, we aren't really interested in the previous performance of the decks but the performance we can expect from the decks when we use them in the future. And in your example, the matchup against Paradox would weigh in less than the matchup against  Morte although in future matches the chances to play against them are equal.

Make the matchup against each Element count exactly the same - or weigh them according to their presence on the wheel. Everything else might have greater statistical purity but doesn't help at all when evaluating the potential of a deck.

PuppyChow

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg26649#msg26649
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2010, 09:45:04 pm »
Your example was just a case where you only played a single game against an easy god. While it may be true that it alters it more than normal, if it were an easy god, your percent win against it may very well be close to 100%. So the percent if you won (likely) would actually be closer to your real percent.

Let's take your example if you win:
100+(100+100+0+100+0+80+80+100+33+57+86+22+33+56+60)/16 = 1007/16 ~ 62.94%

Now let's say that you play 7 more games against paradox all in a row. You win 6/7 of them, bringing your percent to 87.5.

87.5+(100+100+0+100+0+80+80+100+33+57+86+22+33+56+60)/16 = 994.5/16 ~ 62.2%

So you see, if you include paradox and win with 1 game, your percent win is actually VERY close to what it would be if you had played 8 games, since paradox is a very easy god and your percent would be close to 100 anyway.

The problem arises when you're 0% against a very easy god or 100% a very hard god, but then it's just like with other samples: the more trials you have, the more exact it is. That would just be a case of you needing more trials :).

Oh, and what Silken said.

FrozenFlame

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg26715#msg26715
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2010, 02:15:53 am »
Umm Yea.
That will be changed soon then, it will be announced at login's sidebar and about, where the updates are listed. :)

FrozenFlame

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg27197#msg27197
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2010, 03:14:38 am »
-Modified how overall win rate is calculated.
It is now the average of the partial win rates (win rate against each FG). For the overall calculation, the partial win rates are not rounded up, only final result is. Partial win rates of 0% due to having no battles ocurred are ignored for overall calculation, but a partial win rate of 0% with battles (which means, player never won a game against that FG) will be taken into account for the overall win rate.

If this was unclear, for a practical example, suppose there are only 4 FGs.
FG1 - win rate: 60%
FG2 - win rate: 0% (at least 1 battle played)
FG3 - win rate: 0% (0 battles played)
FG4 - win rate: 30%
---
overall win rate = (60+0+30)/3 = 30%. [ the 0 comes from FG2 ].
Holding same stats, if you face FG3 as next FG and you lose, partial win rate is 0% (you lost), and
overall win rate = (60+0+0+30)/4 = 22.5% ~ 23% rounded.

FrozenFlame

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg28163#msg28163
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2010, 05:43:59 pm »
Added FG "Octane" to the database.
Also, we're planning to enhance the website visually at any time, working on it :)

918273645

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Can't register in Elements Satistics! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg35963#msg35963
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2010, 04:05:58 am »
Please help me! When I put in the info and hit enter, it just says "Going back to home:)." It doesn't say I made any errors, but I can't log in!

FrozenFlame

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg36559#msg36559
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2010, 12:23:32 pm »
hum.. When does that happen, when trying to login?
Have you logged in before?
Also, have you got your cookies enabled? (I guess so, just making sure about this one)
I am going to take a look tonight, please give details if you can :)


918273645

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Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg36979#msg36979
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2010, 03:04:22 am »
hum.. When does that happen, when trying to login?
Have you logged in before?
Also, have you got your cookies enabled? (I guess so, just making sure about this one)
I am going to take a look tonight, please give details if you can :)
This happens when trying to register. Never logged is before. Yes, I do. I am running Windows 7, and IE.

FrozenFlame

  • Guest
Re: Elements Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2237.msg37456#msg37456
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2010, 02:13:44 am »
Are you trying to register with the same nick than here on these forums (918273645)? If so, it seems the username is taken.. although it should say that the username is taken, rather than "going back to home"; in this case.
I am having no much time to check this issue at the moment, so if it persists, please pm me the username you want to register as, i'll make it happen if username is not taken :)


 

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