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Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297243#msg297243
« on: March 24, 2011, 01:45:56 pm »
Invasive Creatures Series:
They are everywhere and you cannot get rid of them. So small but so numerous, you crush 3 and 9 appear from nowhere. They swarm and insinuate. Here is your nightmare: the invasive creatures. Made with love by SnoWeb
All the following creatures have some commune characteristics:
- they are small: they will all have strictly less than 4 HP and atk.
- they are cheap: they will all cost less than 3 quanta.
- they clog your hand: in general they synergise with nightmare quite well.
- they clog your field: some of them even have a infest-like (same as malignant cell) mechanic.
- they fit the theme of their element.

:fire Fire: Flame | Flame
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23276.0.html)

:life Life: Ivy | Ivy
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23314.0.html)

:water Water: Caulerpa taxifolia | Caulerpa taxifolia
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23319.msg317131.html)

:time Time: Sand Ant | Desert Ant
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23362.0.html)

:entropy Shatterpillar | Rorschach Fly
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23364.0.html)

:darkness Darkness: Black Grasshopper | Dark Grasshopper
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23365.0.html)

:gravity Gravity: Red Locust | Giant Locust
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23367.0.html)

:death Death: Maggot | Maggot
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23385.0.html)

:aether Aether: Shy Spirit | Mist Spirit
(http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23948.0.html)

Suggestions and comments are welcome.

Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297280#msg297280
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 03:53:42 pm »
Already in game:


If you like this series you might also like:

Kael Hate

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297303#msg297303
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 04:35:49 pm »
Quick review

Flame - Nice, probably very agressive at that cost because of the environment. Easily Mainstream.
Ivy - Great in theme and effect. Easily Mainstream.
Caulerpa taxifolia - What a name. Specialised.
Ant - I feel lockdown here with mitosis.
Shatterpillar | Rorschach Fly - Don't like em. Can't see a positive use and even for nighmare bit meh.
Grasshopper - Nice. Balanced cost effect and makes nightmare mono playable.
Red Locust - Why not when it devours it createes another locust rather than the normal devour +1/+1?

Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297321#msg297321
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 05:08:22 pm »
Red Locust - Why not when it devours it createes another locust rather than the normal devour +1/+1?
Good Idea - I changed it.

Shatterpillar | Rorschach Fly - Don't like em. Can't see a positive use and even for nighmare bit meh.
and with nightmare and devourer?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297381#msg297381
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 07:16:15 pm »
PS: Infest is the Keyword for creating another ___ at the end of the turn.

:fire Fire: Flame | Flame (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23276.0.html)
Standalone useage: Powerful cheap swarm card. Possibly above par but can be easily adjusted back to par.
Clog Hand use: It deals 1 damage per Flame per turn until discarded or played (see Clog Field)
Clog Field use: If you can trick your opponent to play 1 of these Flames then it will spread to the entire field. This requires Nightmare to be used and the opponent to have access to :fire. It is not as good as a field clog as alfatoxin but it does cost a lot less.

Overall Mechanically:
While not perfect, this is close enough. The mechanics flow together in harmony and has 3 main strategies that all would work in the current metagame.
Other critiques:
It is a suggestion with 2 effects. Typically this is unwise however in this case the combination is a better card than either 1 effect cards.

:life Life: Ivy | Ivy (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23314.0.html)
Standalone useage: Appears to be slightly underpar but can be adjusted back to par.
Clog Hand use: Wild Weed would force the opponent to discard their least valuable card or play earlier cards. This is not as great a mechanic as Burn but also is a good and thematic nightmare strategy.
Clog Field use: Like Flame this is a nightmare malignant cell. However the underpar Standalone use makes it so it is unlikely to be played. Hands with lots of valuable cards might play Ivy for you to take advantage of but it is not as reliable.

Overall Mechanically:
Not as good as Flame but still possibly a worthwhile addition to the game.
Other critiques:
It is a suggestion with 2 effects. Typically this is unwise however in this case the combination is a better card than either 1 effect cards.

:water Water: Caulerpa taxifolia | Caulerpa taxifolia (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23319.msg317131.html)
Standalone useage: Appears to be slightly underpar but can be adjusted back to par.
Clog Hand use: Usurps the method Ghost of the Past used. That is not a good idea.
Clog Field use: I do not imagine a nightmare'd Caulerpa taxifolia would be played with high enough frequency to be a viable strategy

Overall Mechanically:
Not as good as Flame. Probably not worth considering for the game.
Other critiques:
It is a suggestion with 2 effects. In this case I think that it does not justify this.

:time Time: Sand Ant | Desert Ant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23362.0.html)
Standalone useage: On par but close to Deja Vu.
Clog Hand use: Mitosis + Insinuate makes this a reliable strategy. If you can deny the opponent Time quanta (perhaps too easy) then it makes a perfect lockdown with a built in win condition. That is a powerful enough synergy to warrant a more expensive cost to enforce.
Clog Field use: Playing one is superior to discarding one. Hence a field lockdown can be created if the opponent has  :time.

Overall Mechanically:
Not as good as Flame. Might be worthwhile if improved.
Possible improvements might include:
Different discard effect [poison instead of neurotoxin?]
Different entry point [would adding to the hand be more or less balanced/balanceable?]
More expensive [with better stats]
Different theme to match changes.
Other critiques:
Very difficult to balance.
It is a suggestion with 2 effects. In this case they are more like two half effects so it is justified IMO.

:entropy Shatterpillar | Rorschach Fly (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23364.0.html)
Standalone useage: none|competes with micro abomination
Clog Hand use: The discard effect is negligible when the opponent is forced to discard without adding silence to the equation.
Clog Field use: Will not be played|Powerful, hard to block, creature that does not Infest.

Overall Mechanically:
Please forget this card.
Other critiques:
The name does not seem to fit thematically well.
A series is more credible if it does not try to force the idea into every element.

:darkness Darkness: Black Grasshopper | Dark Grasshopper (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23365.0.html)
Standalone useage: Significantly underpar.
Clog Hand use: Never discarded.
Clog Field use: Will not clog the field

Overall Mechanically:
Please forget this card.
Other critiques:
The name/element do not seem to fit the mechanic thematically.
A series is more credible if it does not try to force the idea into every element.

:gravity Gravity: Red Locust | Giant Locust (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23367.0.html)
Standalone useage: Competes too closely with Otyugh and appears to be UP in comparision
Clog Hand use: Neat discard effect. Needs a better name. While neat the discard effect does not seem to be worthwhile to add to the game when designed as a nightmare synergy.
Clog Field use: Will not clog the field

Overall Mechanically:
Please forget this card but remember the mechanics.
Other critiques:
This would be better as 2 cards one with each effect. However neither effect is best suited to this series.
Needs better effect names.
Swarm is already used,
Sw(H)arm is like Obsession? It can not be lobotomised because it is in the hand?
Ingest and Infest does not seem to fit Locust although it would fit Ghouls.

Summary:
Flame is great
Ivy is good
The Ant would be good if reworked some
Red Locust's two mechanics should be repurposed in other card ideas but not this series.
Please do not try to create a card for each element
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297830#msg297830
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 07:29:43 am »
@OldTrees: Thanks for taking the time to make such a extensive analysis. Some general points first:
  • What does "underpar" mean?
  • Infest is indeed the right word but I found that spread and creeper were thematically better. These cards won't go into the game in such form anyway. It is just made to give inspiration to Zanz, right. I thought that my words were prettier.
  • Typically this is unwise to have 2 effects in one card. However, in the case of a these cards. They are not as powerful attacker as Ghost of the past. They therefore need to have a second effect to make them interesting by themselves. That's why most of these Idea have two.
  • Clog the field: The second effect for a big part of these creatures is to clog/fill the field. However, they don't clog/fill the field of your opponent but yours. It exploits here a difficulty of malignant cell/aflatoxin: the use on self. Sure it exist a lot of counters to these small creatures but here the number makes their strength. The ability of clogging your opponent's field is a just a side effect of the combination with nightmare. These creature cannot do it by themselves.
@OldTrees and Kael concerning the cards themselves:
  • Flame and Ivy: These two cards reach their goal thanks to you guys. I glad you like them. They are already submitted to the crucible. Now we just need to vote for them.
  • Caulerpa, Shatterpillar and Rorschach: Not interresting enough as you guys pointed out. I'll drop them.
  • Ant, Grasshopper and Locust: too many points to discuss it here I brought the discution back to their specific thread.
Links:

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297838#msg297838
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 08:15:06 am »
Par is the perfect balance point. Balanced is within rounding enforced by integer casting costs of the par value. Underpar means less powerful than balanced. This varies from being only perceptible through theory, to protestations of underpowered, to 0 or negative benefit. Abovepar goes the other way of course.

Having 2 effects in one card is a concern and often unwise. However with this type of card are more likely than normal for 2 effects to be wise.

You called Clog the field what I called Standalone usage. I still critiqued the 3rd possible strategy.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297858#msg297858
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 09:47:29 am »
Par is the perfect balance point. Balanced is within rounding enforced by integer casting costs of the par value. Underpar means less powerful than balanced. This varies from being only perceptible through theory, to protestations of underpowered, to 0 or negative benefit. Abovepar goes the other way of course.
As all these creatures are relying a lot on synergies with other cards, I preferred to make them a bit underpar. As I cannot foresee all the possible interactions, I avoid this way to generate a game breaking combo. For now, Sand ant might be one of these dangerous cards. I'll work on it do fix this latter today.

A series is more credible if it does not try to force the idea into every element.
[...]
Please do not try to create a card for each element.
The problem is that I only realise if an idea is good or not after I discussed it with some people. Here for example I realised that Caulerpa and Shatterpillar were not very promising whereas you realised that grasshopper was.
I am sorry if it's to much but during the night I had another idea: :death Death: Maggot | Maggot (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23385.0.html).

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297870#msg297870
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 10:30:45 am »
Par is the perfect balance point. Balanced is within rounding enforced by integer casting costs of the par value. Underpar means less powerful than balanced. This varies from being only perceptible through theory, to protestations of underpowered, to 0 or negative benefit. Abovepar goes the other way of course.
As all these creatures are relying a lot on synergies with other cards, I preferred to make them a bit underpar. As I cannot foresee all the possible interactions, I avoid this way to generate a game breaking combo. For now, Sand ant might be one of these dangerous cards. I'll work on it do fix this latter today.

A series is more credible if it does not try to force the idea into every element.
[...]
Please do not try to create a card for each element.
The problem is that I only realise if an idea is good or not after I discussed it with some people. Here for example I realised that Caulerpa and Shatterpillar were not very promising whereas you realised that grasshopper was.
I am sorry if it's to much but during the night I had another idea: :death Death: Maggot | Maggot (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23385.0.html).
It is a good idea to keep them barely underpar. (just be careful how much)

You manged the series well. You attempted but did not force each element.

+1 karma for this series.
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tttt

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297890#msg297890
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 11:27:10 am »
Almost all cards have a discard-triggered ability. Unless you have a clogged hand or the opponent uses nightmare, it's not very often you can discard unless you sacrifice deck efficiency. Some abilities are rather blurry and overall I don't like the idea of cards that are especially designed to be discarded.

Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg297914#msg297914
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2011, 01:13:36 pm »
Almost all cards have a discard-triggered ability. Unless you have a clogged hand or the opponent uses nightmare, it's not very often you can discard unless you sacrifice deck efficiency.
The cards are not design to be discarded by the player (all the effects are negative ones) but by its opponent. The whole purpose of this series is to make creatures which can be use with nightmare but which strength is not just high attack (like Ghost of the past) but something more insidious (a swarm, a denial, a CC or even a card control ability). This is sort of a brain storming to generate 1/2 viable ideas that could lead to nightmare-friendly creatures totally different from Ghost of the past.

Flame | Flame (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23276.0.html), Ivy | Ivy (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23314.0.html) and Caulerpa taxifolia | Caulerpa taxifolia (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23319.msg317131.html) use an infest-like ability to create strength from the number.
Black Grasshopper | Dark Grasshopper (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23365.0.html), :gravity Gravity: Red Locust | Giant Locust (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23367.0.html) and :death Death: Maggot | Maggot (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23385.0.html) explore different proliferative solutions. Sand Ant | Desert Ant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23362.0.html) and Shatterpillar | Rorschach Fly (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23364.0.html) are attempts to make control/denial cards out of this mechanic. All have different discard-triggered effect in order too let them fit to their theme and/or to create/enhance new synergies.

Some abilities are rather blurry and overall I don't like the idea of cards that are especially designed to be discarded.
This is interesting. Can you tell me which one. I'll try to reword them or to add explanations in the notes. Overall 4t, if you don't like the nightmare mechanic, this is not a series for you.

Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Re: Invasive Creatures Series https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23363.msg306519#msg306519
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2011, 06:48:10 am »
New card in the series (sorry OldTrees): :aether Aether: Shy Spirit | Mist Spirit (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23948.0.html)

 

blarg: