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Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297222#msg297222
« on: March 24, 2011, 01:15:28 pm »
NAME:
Sand Ant
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
:time
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
1|1
TEXT:
Brain damage: inflicts 1 neuro-
toxin when discarded.
:time : Insinuate - Goes to the
top of the opponent's deck.
NAME:
Desert Ant
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
:time
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
1|2
TEXT:
Brain damage: inflicts 1 neuro-
toxin when discarded.
:time : Insinuate - Goes to the
top of the opponent's deck.
ART:
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/397232
IDEA:
SnoWeb
NOTES:
This ant has the ability to infiltrate into its target head (through the ear or the nostrils) and to slowly kill it with its neurotoxic bite.
"Brain Damage" is a passive ability and cannot be lobotomised whereas "Creeper" is active (and actively triggered) and can.
SERIES:
Invasive creature series (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23363.0.html)

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297227#msg297227
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 01:24:49 pm »
Wonderful idea! I like it, and it reinforces the darkness/time affinity (nightmare/GotP). Three thumbs up lol.

Offline EmeraldTiger

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297234#msg297234
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 01:31:11 pm »
looks good, maybe we could revive the Ant series.
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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297729#msg297729
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 01:41:03 am »
Awesome idea :D

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297742#msg297742
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 01:54:03 am »
It has problems (as I said in the series thread) but if modified it would be a good card.

Clog Hand Problem 1: A permanent Insinuation Mitosis draw lockdown is too cheap and easy.
Vanilla Problem 2: If the effect is not used it is competing with Deja Vu and strictly inferior.
Clog Field Problem 3: Neurotoxin discourages the opponent from playing the Sand Ant if they ever discarded one. Also Neurotoxin is a special poison. Perhaps it would work better with regular poison so it is not competing with Dune Scorpion.

+1 karma to whoever suggests a modification/solution that fixes 2+ of these in one post.
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Offline Camoninja

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297749#msg297749
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 02:17:39 am »
It has problems (as I said in the series thread) but if modified it would be a good card.

Problem 1: A permanent Insinuation Mitosis draw lockdown is too cheap and easy.
Problem 2: If the effect is not used it is competing with Deja Vu and strictly inferior.
Problem 3: Neurotoxin discourages the opponent from playing the Sand Ant if they ever discarded one. Also Neurotoxin is a special poison. Perhaps it would work better with regular poison so it is not competing with Dune Scorpion.
How about sacrificing (maybe for 1 :darkness quantum) this card to nightmare it nightmare one of each for the entire flock in opponent's hand, and if played it heals 5 HP, and if discarded, deals 1 neurotoxin?

I would say enters burrowed but then it would probably be too powerful. I like this idea more than most other ideas (but I am biased toward neurotoxin) and I can't think of any other improvements at the moment.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297751#msg297751
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 02:25:24 am »
How about making the creature have 0 HP in that case and give regular poison?

For Oldtrees' problems -
1) It now requires a buff from another element, so Mitosis lockdown would require at least a trio.
2) A 0 HP creature would probably have a different use in decks than what Deja Vu could do. While it isn't necessary, I think costing Other quanta would help alleviate this problem.
3) Regular poison as you suggested is probably the best route.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297756#msg297756
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 02:36:06 am »
How about making the creature have 0 HP in that case and give regular poison?

For Oldtrees' problems -
1) It now requires a buff from another element, so Mitosis lockdown would require at least a trio.
2) A 0 HP creature would probably have a different use in decks than what Deja Vu could do. While it isn't necessary, I think costing Other quanta would help alleviate this problem.
3) Regular poison as you suggested is probably the best route.
1) Making the primary strategy a trio is typically a step back when considering design. But 0hp has thematic issues.
2) The point of problem 2 was so it could compete before it was sacrificed. Making it cheaper would work.
3) Poison would work.
+1karma but your solutions for 1&2 seem to indicate there should be better solutions. Especially because your 0hp, other cost ideas work against each other.

It has problems (as I said in the series thread) but if modified it would be a good card.

Problem 1: A permanent Insinuation Mitosis draw lockdown is too cheap and easy.
Problem 2: If the effect is not used it is competing with Deja Vu and strictly inferior.
Problem 3: Neurotoxin discourages the opponent from playing the Sand Ant if they ever discarded one. Also Neurotoxin is a special poison. Perhaps it would work better with regular poison so it is not competing with Dune Scorpion.
How about sacrificing (maybe for 1 :darkness quantum) this card to nightmare it in opponent's hand, and if played it heals 5 HP, and if discarded, deals 1 neurotoxin?
It currently is sacrificed to create a copy on top of the opponent's deck.
1) Your idea prevents drawing just as much as the current version and actually prevents multiple hourglass drawing in addition. The strategy needed a nerf not a buff
2) It would need renaming to deal with the 5hp gained when played. But that could work. Starting burrowed would require a cost increase but is a good idea.
3) Healing 5hp does not overcome the neurotoxin's prohibition from playing the Sand ant.
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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297818#msg297818
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 06:47:02 am »
Reverse Time on itself Replaces your top card when discarded and Toxin when played? I don't think we need to cut out Nightmare use from this card XP

Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg297841#msg297841
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 08:29:40 am »
Comments from the series thread:
    Ant - I feel lockdown here with mitosis.
    Standalone useage: On par but close to Deja Vu.
    Clog Hand use: Mitosis + Insinuate makes this a reliable strategy. If you can deny the opponent Time quanta (perhaps too easy) then it makes a perfect lockdown with a built in win condition. That is a powerful enough synergy to warrant a more expensive cost to enforce.
    Clog Field use: Playing one is superior to discarding one. Hence a field lockdown can be created if the opponent has  :time.
    Overall Mechanically:
    Not as good as Flame. Might be worthwhile if improved.
    Possible improvements might include:
    Different discard effect [poison instead of neurotoxin?]
    Different entry point [would adding to the hand be more or less balanced/balanceable?]
    More expensive [with better stats]
    Different theme to match changes.
    Other critiques:
    Very difficult to balance.
    It is a suggestion with 2 effects. In this case they are more like two half effects so it is justified IMO.
    [/list]I totally overlooked the mitosis lock. It appears that it has the same kind of issue with fractal. It is indeed a problem.

    Neurotoxin discourages the opponent from playing the Sand Ant if they ever discarded one. Also Neurotoxin is a special poison. Perhaps it would work better with regular poison so it is not competing with Dune Scorpion.
    It is not competing with dune scorpion because the inoculation pathway is completely different. It enhance different duos. Dune scorpion goes with Entropy (Chaos Power), Light (Blessing) and Gravity (Unstoppable) whereas Sand ant pares with Darkness (nightmare), Aether (Mindgate, Fractal) and Life (Mitosis). None of the two can be used in mono (and both are strictly less good than déjà-vu if you disregard the special abilities ...).
    Neurotoxin allows a weak creature which cannot swarm to still give a killing blow. What is the point of going through the trouble of filling your opponent's hand with ants for a single classical poison? Moreover, the neurotoxin is time special poison. Time does not have poisoning ability outside it. The draw/play control is the theme link. IMO, if we remove that we loose flavour.

    Different entry point [would adding to the hand be more or less balanced/balanceable?]
    I think our solution might well be here. The ant could enter in position 1 (or last) of the hand. The question is what happens if the hand is full (already eight cards in - e.g. after a nightmare)? Does the ant go in the hand and pushes the 8th card on the topdeck or does the ant directly go on the topdeck instead?  The question is not superfluous if you use nightmare on a different creature (e.g. GotP, devourer or even black grasshopper (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23365.0.html)). Should it do something else in this special case - like destroy the ant?
    I eventually thought of sending the ant in the second-topdeck position. This however does not solve the lock-down issue. It makes it rather more tricky to handle and slows it down by one turn but it is still possible. Sadly we cannot test the card before we send it to crucible. I'd like to have your opinins befaore I try to reword the whole thing.
    Thanks.


    Offline SnoWebTopic starter

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    Re: Sand Ant | Desert Ant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23362.msg299938#msg299938
    « Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 08:28:38 am »
    As said and explain above, this card might be broken because of the possible combination with Fractal/mind-gate/mitosis which can create an unstoppable lock.
    However, none of the above proposed solution are satisfactory:
      0 HP: not like a antnormal poison: not like a time card, does not solve anythingsending the ant in the hand instead in topdeck position: way less interrestingother: meh
    I therefore decided to send the card as it is to the crucible. The idea is there. It will have anyway to go through Zanz brain before it goes to the game so ...

    On another side, I made the spell version of the ant ability : Time Paradox (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23541.0.html).
    This solve the Fractal/mind-gate/mitosis abuse but does not fit my invasive creatures series (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23363.0.html) any more and is a totally different card.

     

    blarg: