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LongDono

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247868#msg247868
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2011, 03:10:43 am »
We're 14 trillion in debt from both sides of the parties spending too much money.  So you believe giving them more money will fix their spending problem.  When there is a significant amount of evidence out there that proves raising taxes does NOT raise revenue. Due to the fact when taxes are raised people spend less cause they have less, this affects business and people alike.  This is what my link I posted was about, but you choose to keep your head in the sand and not read, good choice.  The dollar will crash its just a matter of when, unless you can get the government to cut back on how it spends plain and simple.  I think I should be the one banging my head on the wall here.
So you think giving them less money will solve the debt issue? That is just.... AHIEDFNFNOJFAKF! BOOM
Ok calm down..... calm down....
Ok I agree people spend less, but if the government is in debt then how will people spending money on goods and services that other american's give going to directly help the government?
We have had a major tax break for too many years now and look at what it has done! History.... No Recent history and our current situation discredits the whole "taxbreaks are best" idea.

gavsword

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247874#msg247874
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2011, 03:18:08 am »
War, unequal distribution of wealth, and trade imbalances are what have caused the debt. Unfortunately the spending argument is void when the tax cuts are for the upper one percent, who have controlled the majority of the economy for over 50 years. Modern history has shown trickle down is ineffective. We had the greatest economic growth when we had leaders who understood business and a good education system in place to put us on top. What the dems are attempting to do is spend money to try to find some sort of program that boosts domestic support to the point where the government and citizen are making money. They are trying to reform the biggest holes that are losing us the most money to try to reduce the deficit. Conservatives are currently trying to cut back more and more, and frankly we cannot afford taking more cuts in education, mental health programs, or any major domestic research practices. Cutting isn't working, spending isn't working. Our government isn't working. We need to change it, but when the private corporations who control the major parties also control the media, security, and control and dictate infrastructure and funding for that we are screwed.

redrox

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247885#msg247885
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2011, 03:33:56 am »
how will people spending money on goods and services that other american's give going to directly help the government?
We have had a major tax break for too many years now and look at what it has done! History.... No Recent history and our current situation discredits the whole "taxbreaks are best" idea.
It's more complicated then you say.  First people get taxed less, then they can spend more simple enough.  Second business earn more through peoples use of the business and spending from the peoples tax cuts.  Third Business gets tax cuts and through them earning more AND being taxed less now they can GROW.  This means they can hire more people and that means more people make money and that means more people spend money.  Also during all this spending that has been going on, very likely government will tax the transactions therefore earning more off the growth.  Also from the Growth in wealth in the people and business they will have more income to tax even if it is at a lower percentage the growth will outweigh the percentage loss.

And for the second comment I quoted in last 10 years we have been involved in a number of wars which cost this country waaay to much money.  A long with Fannie and Freddie all but imploding the housing bubble.  Then you have the government propping up wall street with tax payers money.  A number of examples of how the government again spent to much, both democrat and republicans, don't forget the last 4 years were democrat run.  The house was taken back by democrats in 2006, Democrats are just guilty as republicans for spending to much.

Offline Ajit

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247887#msg247887
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2011, 03:42:29 am »
Modern history has shown trickle down is ineffective. We had the greatest economic growth when we had leaders who understood business and a good education system in place to put us on top.
Lol would you rather live under the [sarcastic]prosperous[/sarcastic] years of Jimmy Carter?  Or does Ronald Reagan sound a bit better?  What modern history are you looking at?  There are contradictory occurrences in history everywhere.

With that being said, I personally believe that natural societal patterns are what realize cause our successes and failures economically.  I mean I refuse to think Herbert Hoover entered into the presidency, and in less than a year, single-handedly caused the Great Depression.  I believe congress and presidents and parties all can push something over the edge, but I wouldn't really say it is their fault.  At least not solely their fault. 

I mean do American's really spend money different regardless of whose in charge?  I bet you would buy the exact same things had McCain been elected.  This is a micro example of how we control our country, not they.  Americans spend money.  Not just the politicians, but the poor guy who is in debt but still wants a Droid X, a new car, and a new house, and I'm sure he'll get approved for the loans.  We spend 150% of what we earn (made up number, just for making a point).  The Chinese spend less than half of what they earn (real statistic).

LongDono

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247911#msg247911
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2011, 04:51:09 am »
how will people spending money on goods and services that other american's give going to directly help the government?
We have had a major tax break for too many years now and look at what it has done! History.... No Recent history and our current situation discredits the whole "taxbreaks are best" idea.
It's more complicated then you say.  First people get taxed less, then they can spend more simple enough.  Second business earn more through peoples use of the business and spending from the peoples tax cuts.  Third Business gets tax cuts and through them earning more AND being taxed less now they can GROW.  This means they can hire more people and that means more people make money and that means more people spend money.  Also during all this spending that has been going on, very likely government will tax the transactions therefore earning more off the growth.  Also from the Growth in wealth in the people and business they will have more income to tax even if it is at a lower percentage the growth will outweigh the percentage loss.

And for the second comment I quoted in last 10 years we have been involved in a number of wars which cost this country waaay to much money.  A long with Fannie and Freddie all but imploding the housing bubble.  Then you have the government propping up wall street with tax payers money.  A number of examples of how the government again spent to much, both democrat and republicans, don't forget the last 4 years were democrat run.  The house was taken back by democrats in 2006, Democrats are just guilty as republicans for spending to much.
And while you have those tax breaks and wait for thier effects to come full swing you give the government less money to spend with. remember the governments debt is the issue, and also I do agree with some of what you said but will the tax cuts be any better? I know numbers being exact are way too much to ask for on a subject like this, but will tax breaks really be enough?
Also I would like to agree I am not 100% against tax breaks/cuts so long as they are targeted and well thought out. For example though broad as it may be, You have $1,000,000,000,000 you are spend on tax breaks. You can either give 100,000,000 of our poorest an average of 1,000 tax breaks, or you can give the rich a tax break. If you choose the rich you will be handing it to less people and the rich don't stay rich by spending their money, they save it, thus the only way the rich should have a tax break is if they show they give back to this country and keep the money flowing. I am not a "spread the wealth" guy, I am a "keep the cash flowing" guy. That being said if you give that money to the poor instead it will almost ALL be pumped right back into this country with great speed.
So I am not against tax cuts, but I have to be proven that they wont be the same old same old BS.
Now if you raise taxes it should not be blind just like tax cuts. I should have made this clear. In fact you need some sort of tax cut to blance them. Those that spend money should not have to pay as high of taxes. I really should have gone into detail, my bad. All to often I get into a debate with someone that screams tax cuts and that they are best.
Sorry if I screwed something up in my post I think I need to get to bed.

Uppercut

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247926#msg247926
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2011, 05:28:23 am »
Both parties cause debt.  And yeah I know you said "conservatism", but let's get real; conservatism=republican and liberalism=democrat
Not even close. Republicans are far enough right that most successful countries don't have a mainstream party to compare them to and the democrats would be considered conservative. Somewhere in American history we've shifted so far right that center-right and centrism is general is considered left.

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg247986#msg247986
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2011, 07:11:15 am »
if the top 1% cover 50% of the taxes, dont you think they should have a say what happens... just sayin.
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gavsword

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg248122#msg248122
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2011, 01:13:09 pm »
Modern history has shown trickle down is ineffective. We had the greatest economic growth when we had leaders who understood business and a good education system in place to put us on top.
Lol would you rather live under the [sarcastic]prosperous[/sarcastic] years of Jimmy Carter?  Or does Ronald Reagan sound a bit better?  What modern history are you looking at?  There are contradictory occurrences in history everywhere.

With that being said, I personally believe that natural societal patterns are what realize cause our successes and failures economically.  I mean I refuse to think Herbert Hoover entered into the presidency, and in less than a year, single-handedly caused the Great Depression.  I believe congress and presidents and parties all can push something over the edge, but I wouldn't really say it is their fault.  At least not solely their fault. 

I mean do American's really spend money different regardless of whose in charge?  I bet you would buy the exact same things had McCain been elected.  This is a micro example of how we control our country, not they.  Americans spend money.  Not just the politicians, but the poor guy who is in debt but still wants a Droid X, a new car, and a new house, and I'm sure he'll get approved for the loans.  We spend 150% of what we earn (made up number, just for making a point).  The Chinese spend less than half of what they earn (real statistic).
Yes, I know the economy took a huge hit under Carter, he wasn't a very effective president at all. Reagan and Clinton understood the economy and used that knowledge to lead us into prosperity. Im not saying the dems or republicans are more effective at controlling the economy from one term to the other. What I'm saying is that I believe the dems current plan to be much more effective than what the republicans are trying to do.

The truth is, America has almost always been in debt. We've always had a minor deficit, but this one is much much larger than any other we have had in history. And it also has consequences. The world's reserves are in the dollar so when we have a struggling economy, it hurts the economy world wide. The dems are currently devaluing the dollar in an attempt to lower prices so people will buy more, this is pissing off a lot of international leaders, but hey it's their fault for only having reserves in one type of money, which is frankly stupid.

Both parties cause debt.  And yeah I know you said "conservatism", but let's get real; conservatism=republican and liberalism=democrat
Not even close. Republicans are far enough right that most successful countries don't have a mainstream party to compare them to and the democrats would be considered conservative. Somewhere in American history we've shifted so far right that center-right and centrism is general is considered left.
Not to mention that other "republican" parties internationally are doing things the american republicans are blocking like crazy. They are blocking energy reform, when other political groups around the world understand that a change is needed because climate change is real and is a fucking problem. It's becoming a common american practice to just sit and filibuster whatever law you disagree with. Even if you agree with it you might attempt to block it because your party is against it. The ability to filibuster or the requirements to block a law need to change, because I don't think the founding fathers had in mind an american where all you do is sit and bitch if you disagree with a law. They imagined getting things done, working together and not an america so divided that hate media out numbers legitimate news sources.

if the top 1% cover 50% of the taxes, dont you think they should have a say what happens... just sayin.
Except they don't cover 50% of the taxes or even close to that. And when you try to lower their tax rates more and more aren't you hurting "50%" of the income made from taxes.

This is also against what america was founded on. Equality. What you are suggesting is an oligarchy where the top 1% have more control over the lives of the other 99%. Thats not democracy, though you could argue what we currently have isn't democracy either.

LongDono

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg248158#msg248158
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2011, 02:33:24 pm »
if the top 1% cover 50% of the taxes, dont you think they should have a say what happens... just sayin.
They do have a say, more than a say really.
They have I believe it was atleast 70%+ of the wealth in just the top 2%? ( Please please correct me if I am wrong. )
When you have over 50% of the wealth you should be pating more overall but about = percentage.

redrox

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg248298#msg248298
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2011, 06:33:53 pm »
Not to mention that other "republican" parties internationally are doing things the american republicans are blocking like crazy. They are blocking energy reform, when other political groups around the world understand that a change is needed because climate change is real and is a ******* problem. It's becoming a common american practice to just sit and filibuster whatever law you disagree with. Even if you agree with it you might attempt to block it because your party is against it. The ability to filibuster or the requirements to block a law need to change, because I don't think the founding fathers had in mind an american where all you do is sit and bitch if you disagree with a law. They imagined getting things done, working together and not an america so divided that hate media out numbers legitimate news sources.
To my understanding this is an untrue statement.  They are blocking Cap and Trade but cap and trade is by no means energy reform.  It is a redistribution of wealth and will do absolutely nothing to stop climate change.  All it does do is tax people and business for carbon emissions.  Yes you exhale co2 guess what you this means the taxes can affect you also.  Now bring some real energy reform to the table and I'm sure they will talk.  Quite frankly I agree and a majority of america agree's with this blocking of cap and trade.  Polls show that.  As referenced below only 30% of americans support cap and trade.  http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/30/zogby-poll-only-30-of-americans-support-cap-and-trade/

Offline Kuu

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg248388#msg248388
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2011, 07:58:42 pm »

redrox

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Re: US Republican Party: Evil Incarnate. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7539.msg248404#msg248404
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2011, 08:24:21 pm »
Looking up a fancy term on wikipedia is not enough said.  How bout bringing forth a actual fact then there might be enough said.

 

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