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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387266#msg387266
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 05:17:39 pm »
Agreed. As stated, no fire card is actually overpowered. The element itself may be overpowered, however, the cards are fine. So the question becomes should the balance be focused on individual cards alone, or cards and the element as a whole. I believe the answer should be both (once the element has reached the "complete" status). Fire, is the only element I feel is actually complete. So is it, as an element, unbalanced? The answer to that is no. Fire is the only element to have "graduated" for lack of a better word. The other elements havent, so as a whole, they can't be compared.

Note:Being complete does no mean that no cards should be added. It just means that the cards it has fills a large variety of roles so it can handle multiple situations.
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387271#msg387271
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 05:26:15 pm »
So I wrote a lot and then realized it was pretty TLDR status.  Short version:

PC spells are slightly op.  Deflag is cheaper and has no potential downside (you don't want to steal a worse shield/weapon or eclipse if they are death/dark rushing)

This combined with other solid but balanced aspects of fire makes fire the most powerful element.

This could be alleviated slightly by changing PC to only affect certain permanents.  Like EQ only hits towers, making other PC unable to hit towers makes them dead cards in a lot more matchups and thus less desirable to put in any deck that could run them.

Long version here:
I think the real issue with fire revolves are PC.  There are only 3 true PC cards (deflag, steal, pulvy).  Pulvy is sufficiently slow and costed such that it really has a niche where it feels balanced and reasonable.  Steal's potential up side is also a slight cost... Sometimes you don't want the thing... And steal costs more, although it still costs less than a lot of permanents you might use it to take.  Deflag is (and especially explosion) is pretty much cheaper than anything it destroys and it has no downsides. 

Other Psuedo PCs (EQ, trident) are also more balanced in that they can only target 1 type of permanent.  Taking from that concept I think deflag would be more balanced if the types of permanents it works on was more limited.  Right now even if I run no 'real' permanents, my towers get deflagged.  Then not running 'permanents' counters deflag the way not running creatures counter CC or not running pillars counters EQ.  A card with such a specific purpose PC should not have such a wide range of application.  I know there are towerless permanentless decks, but those decks have to go to great lengths to unbalance themselves (thus setting up to be countered easier) to dodge just.a couple cards.   Or people have to run enough EAs to protect all their permanents or at least one will get destroyed. 

In league play or other settings, deck variety is big enough that it may not be a problem, but as we are seeing in arena, PC heavy decks have long been an issue now culminating in fire decks being a heavy majority at the top of the leaderboards.  And in other settings fire has definitely outshined the other elements, especially because it has 1 card (deflag) that negates cards that are unique to how the other elements play and what their capabilities are.  Zanz has been very careful not to have a one size fits all creature removal, but the 1 size fits all permanent removal is already here.
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Offline Rastafla

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387294#msg387294
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2011, 06:17:44 pm »
You define something as overpowered if it beats most other things and fire does, fire still kicks everyone's ass more often than not. That each individual fire card except Deflag and Cremation (imho) is balanced doesn't matter.

Fire is OP by being the best that doesnt suffer any major or medium drawbacks from going mono and none by going duo.

Deflags needs to become 3/2 cost at the very least, preferably 4/3 just as steal.
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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387296#msg387296
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 06:24:43 pm »
Does Fire Lance not fit into the unbalanced category as well?
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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387585#msg387585
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 06:42:13 am »
The issue with fire is really an arena one.  Fire's cards are amongst the simplest, and as such, it is probably the easiest mono deck to play, other than life.  The AI is stupid, and so it needs an easy to play, simple deck. 

When card interactions get complicated, the AI fails.  For instance, it will always do certain things in a certain order; it will always play cards before activating cards on the table, so it will do things like play Soul Catcher before Immolation, or Fractal before using any excess aether quanta on other spells/effects.  It will make other mistakes like playing a more expensive weapon/shield overtop an old one, and without even activating the original weapon, or play animate weapon before using that weapon.  Fire doesn't have decisions to make like 'should I cast that spell, or activate my hourglass/mindgate/pulverizer/whatever instead'.  The only real decision a fire deck has to make is what to cast explosion on, and unless the game takes more than a few turns, the choice is usually just between one or two cards, so it's usually a null choice anyway, especially if it just plays another couple explosions after.

If the AI were somehow made just as smart as a player, Fire would not be dominating arena decks like it is.

Offline teffy

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg388698#msg388698
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2011, 11:22:28 pm »
I think, that Fire is too powerful, especially in Arena. Although Fire combinations are quite popular in PvP, too. One reason could be, that Fire is somehow "complete " as mentioned before. Another point is, that quantum generation is more powerful in Arena than elsewhere (except FGs), and Arena decks are able to spam spells. Because fire has cheap spells with a wide range ... we have a good fire element is arena.The growing potential with several earth marks and the general strength to rush is also a point.

How things could become better:

- The big unknown variable "shard".
- -2 atk for Golems
- +1 cost for Explosion, upped fire lance.
- new cards which counter mass control
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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg388726#msg388726
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2011, 01:33:28 am »
Fire is by far the best Element, in PvP as well as Arena. Whether or not you think that mean it's overpowered, Elements will be a lot more fun and diverse if a few of the key fire cards receive nerfs.

And here are the cards and strategies that make Fire clearly the best Element.

Immolation: This is a key part of the fastest unupgraded decks and can make a very fast upgraded deck. No other card can generate as much quanta of one Element nearly as quickly as Immolation. When combined with Phoenix or Lava Golem, it can build one of the fastest decks in the game, both unupgraded and upgraded.

Firestall: Fire doesn't just have the best rush; it has the best stall due to three key cards: Fire Bolt, Rage Potion, and Fahrenheit. Since stalls cause games to last long, a stall deck will have a huge surplus of quanta late in the match. No other Element can match the damage per turn of a Fahrenheit without using something vulnerable to CC. Fire also has the best bolt. Since bolts are usually used for CC, damage is a top priority. Fire bolt does 50% more damage than the other two bolts, which is definitely more valuable than the secondary effects of Ice Bolt and Drain Life. Fire also has Rage Potion. The only damage based CC cards that can beat the speed of Rage Potion are Lightning and Shockwave, but Aether and Air don't have a Bolt or weapon that can become extremely powerful with a lot of quanta. In BL, I've seen Firestall more than any other stall, which is because the other stalls can't match Firestall.

Deflagration: Deflag is the second best, if not the best, PC card. Only Steal can come close to it's speed. Is it fair that there is such a powerful PC card in such a strong Element? Definitely not.

Phoenix: This was the last straw, and the card that really made Fire far too powerful. Only two other cards can deal as much damage for a price equal or lower (Graboid and GotP). But Phoenix has an amazing ability, giving it a pseudo-immunity to damage-based CC. When combined with PC, it's one of the strongest answers to Firestall, and one of the few cards to consistently beat it. It seems ridiculous to add one of the few ways of consistently handling a highly powerful Element to that same Element.

In conclusion, Fire has the best stall, a very strong rush, and great support cards. The other Elements need to be stronger, but adding two or three cards to each Element would take months, perhaps more than a year. The only good option is to give small nerfs to Fire's key cards: Immolation, Fire Bolt, Deflagration, and Phoenix. This is by far the quickest way to balance Elements and make it more fun to play.
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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg388866#msg388866
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2011, 12:00:52 pm »
In conclusion, Fire has the best stall, a very strong rush, and great support cards. The other Elements need to be stronger, but adding two or three cards to each Element would take months, perhaps more than a year. The only good option is to give small nerfs to Fire's key cards: Immolation, Fire Bolt, Deflagration, and Phoenix. This is by far the quickest way to balance Elements and make it more fun to play.
I agree with most of the above, even though I believed something different before... but not with the conclusion.

The most common reaction to fire in this thread is "it's too complete", "it can rush with immolation and stall with bolts and Rage Potion", "all that AND Phoenix is CC resistant" or similar comments. Basically, what is "wrong" with Fire is that it has one of the best rushes AND one of the best stalls AND can use pretty much any strategy effectively when you run it in a duo AND it has no clear disadvantage.

I will not discuss the possible solution for the Arena problem, as it doesn't really matter - the only thing I'm really worried about is the PvP metagame, where Fire is dominant for the reasons listed above. Now, is nerfing those cards a true solution? I don't think so.

You could nerf phoenix by giving it less attack. You could nerf Fahrenheit by giving it less damage per quanta. You could nerf Fire Bolt by reducing its damage. You could nerf Deflagration by increasing its cost (and that one, I would agree with). You could nerf Immolation by reducing the quanta produced. It could work. But that wouldn't really be the Fire I'd expect.

I mean, I love the flavor cards like Immolation, Phoenix and Fire Bolt give to the element. I like how they actually work in creating an element capable of great rushes and great destructive control. Is it a bad thing? Not if the rest of the elements are balanced around similarly strong concepts, around a similar power level. You say Fire is "complete": create areas of the game where Fire does not excel (some are already there: quanta control, for instance). You say Fire is capable of using any strategy in a duo: make the other elements capable of the same - with some obvious limitations and differences to preserve variety (a good start is giving every element a good mid-range attacker and some good cheap cards). You say Fire can both rush and stall: make it so that every element can do the same (it's pretty easy if you factor in duos). What I say is: don't nerf Fire in a manner that takes away from the flavor of the Element. Buff the other elements in a way that enhances THEIR flavor, so that they are on par with Fire.

It could take years, you say? I disagree. I'm open to suggestions on how to improve the project below, but here is what I think the next patches should look like. A single patch with about 4-8 new cards (less than we expect for the Shards patch) and 6-7 card changes would change the metagame drastically, and I think for the best, while not touching much of Fire's characteristics.

NERF DEFLAGRATION: (1 card change)
I agree on the Deflagration nerf. Cost 3|2 or 4|3 (same as Steal, but Fire has enough support cards as is).

INTRODUCE MORE PERMANENT CONTROL: (about 2-3 cards and a card change)
Not necessarily heavy PC - like Explosion and Steal. They might as well stay in their elements with the above nerf and be good like that. But I think some more PC options should be opened up. Good examples of this are Touch of Midas (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21604.0.html) and Windswept (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19070), which should undergo a cost increase on par with Explosion because they are currently balanced towards it. Another good idea is Faun (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27401.0.html), versatile answer to both PC and opponent permanents. I think that about half of the elements should have an answer to opponent's permanents: as it is, Fire is splashed for Deflagration a whole lot too often: let other elements have similar resources and a part of the problem is solved. Speaking of which, a little buff to Butterfly Effect might be good: even just a cost reduction or having Destroy cost :entropy :entropy when upped.

RESTORE THE USEFULNESS OF MIRROR SHIELD: (2 card changes)
Make it so that if both you and your opponent have a mirror shield, bolts and spells are nullified. That way Mirror and Jade are both very good answers to Firestall, as the only problem left is Fahrenheit. If you do this, you will see rainbows including Mirror Shield to gain the time to crush their opponent. Graboid Rush with a couple Mirrors and a couple Silences will be a good answer. It leaves Fahrenheit? Yes, but you definitely CAN outrush Fahrenheit, as well as destroy it (see above for more PC options) block it (Ice Lance and Voodoo anyone?) or even outheal it (light stall with Sanctuaries and Miracles, Life deck with Jade and Heals, both coupled with decent offense).

ROUND OUT THE ELEMENTS WITH MID-RANGE ATTACKERS: (3-4 card changes plus maybe 1 card)
If anyone was wondering about why mid-range attackers are important, the answer is really simple. First, it works great in combination with Dragons and a weapon to increase a mono's power to rush (take a look at mono-death: it uses Mummy and Bone Dragon, Arsenic and Poison. If you take away the poison and put in Flesh Spiders the rush is less reliable and slightly less fast, but still strong). Second, and more important, if you have a good midrange attacker, a nice shield and a weapon, maybe even a cheap card to splash, you can work with ANY element in a duo. You don't believe me? Take a look at this deck (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24223.msg331136#msg331136). Why does it work? Why can't Air use the same deck with its own element cards? Because Death has a good midrange attacker (Mummy) and a splashable card (Poison) which both work well in about every deck and can kill an opponent even alone. If you take a few pillars and pendulums, Mummies, Poison, Arsenic, maybe even a Skull Shield up to fifteen cards, you can use the rest of the cards in combination with the Mark to run ANY 15-cards-or-less combos from ANY single element. Try it with Air: you can pack defense and CC, sure, but if the 15 cards from the off-element do not have enough "punch" (for instance, if you try to create the above trio, or if you try to splash for some defensive cards), you'll find out the deck fails. If you use Wyrms, the effect is unreliable at best. You need to use Dragons, and that means you need far more quanta in order to do that, which in turn means a slower, less reliable deck.
Most elements can create good 15-cards templates to splash other elements into. The best ones have also got some very good support cards (Lightning, Dimensional Shield, Rage Potion...) to pair with some offense, but we'll talk about that in a minute. Here is a list of elements (arguably) lacking a (good) midrange attacker: unupped Aether, unupped Air, Entropy, unupped Gravity, Life, unupped Light. Darkness has Gargoyles and in upped play Vampires and Eclipse; Earth has Graboid, Elite Antlion, Steel Golem; Fire has Phoenixes, Immolation and tons of support; Time has Ghost of the Past and good support; Water has Toadfish and Abyss Crawler.
Aether has got Phase Recluse for upped play (even if it's very fragile), but even in unupped play it doesn't really need a mid-range attacker. It might have one in Psion (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28117.0.html), but with all the awesome support card it has (Dimensional Shield and Lightning) and with Parallel Universe providing good offense with a minimal creature investment (even 2-3 off-element dragons mean you can reliably copy them after stalling a bit with DimShield and Lightnings), it doesn't really need it.
Entropy is arguably the only element who really doesn't need a good mid-range attacker. There's Abomination, true, but it's not really a competitive card. Anyway, the combination of Nova, Discord, Antimatter, Discord, Pandemonium and Discord would probably make a good mid-range attacker outright broken (imagine a Mono-Entropy with in-element Elite Chargers...). Entropy is fine the way it is, from this perspective.
Life hasn't got a true mid-range attacker, but in upped play this issue is non-existant thanks to the awesomeness of Frogs, while in unupped play you can still count in a strong offensive set with Frog + Adrenaline. Creature spam is the backbone of Life as an element, and its weaknesses are definitely not on the creature side.
That leaves Air, Gravity and Light. Air is the most problematic, as in upped play its Wyrms are very powerful, especially coupled with the awesomeness of Damselflies; but in unupped play Wyrms are next to unusable and Dragonfly just doesn't cut it. The best solution would probably be a slight buff to Wyrm (+1 attack is considered by many people a sufficient and understandable buff). Gravity has the most awesome of upped mid-range attackers in Elite Charger, but unupped Chargers are not very strong. Again, a +1 attack buff might be understandable, but it may even be too strong: the true solution would be a revamp of Graviton Mercenary in a mid-range attacker key. The upped Graviton Guard pairs well with Adrenaline and is certainly useable (although not great), but the unupped one is definitely one of the most underpowered card in all Elements. A revamp of Graviton Mercenary as a strong 5 cost 6/6 (which would also pair well with Rage Potion and increase Gravity's synergy with Fire) would make it a very usable card. Slightly more strong than Abomination (which is usually considered underpowered anyway), probably on-par with Mummy considering all the offensive support the Death element has as opposed to the oh so vulnerable Gravity, and a good answer to RT (the bane of all good Gravity decks).
Light is in a similar situation with the awesome Archangel having a lackluster unupgraded version. Sure, Light has Pegasus - which has an awesome in-element synergy with Blessing - but it does require Air quanta, and the purpose of this measures is to cover the base for duos. Light also has Crusader, which has amazing versatility and can achieve very good attack, but it is costy and rather slow. Light finally has Blessing, which is like a 3-cost 3-attack creature, with the added benefit of Pegasus synergy and added stability (especially on Archangels with Heal). All in all, Light has many cards that can cover for this spot, but lacks a truly powerful unupped mid-range attacker. Just one more little push on the right direction, though, and Light will probably be ok with what it has... so what about just giving Guardian Angel a buff to 3 attack? It will need reduced health, but a 3/3 creature with Heal (universally acknowledge as a Bad SkillTM) seems reasonable. Synergy with Adrenaline, synergy with Blessing (high health creature with Heal turns a useless ability in a painful nuisance). Light will still probably need some other adjustment, all considered, but with Crusader, Blessing and a revamped Guardian Angel it will not need any new card to cover its offensive base.

ROUND OUT THE ELEMENTS WITH SPLASHABLE CARDS: (2-4 cards)
Some of the best cards in all Elements are the cheap, splashable ones that can be included in any deck running off of Mark. Lightning, Shockwave and Fog Shield, Arsenic+Poison, Basilisk Blood and Earthquake, Discord and Pandemonium, Rage Potion and Deflagration (sadly), Reverse Time. They are awesome cards that really shine as they are useful in about any deck, but they shine especially well when they are used in their own element. The possibility to run the very powerful Immorush or Novagrabby templates benefits from good splashable cards. Powerful splashable cards also help the above duo decks, as they round out the quanta production with useful, fast and cheap resources. Finally, most of them spread the usage of the element even in decks based on other elements, making their own element much more respected (think of how Pandebonium strengthens the perception of Entropy's power, even though it uses only one Entropy card...).
Every Element should have some good splashable cards. Most of them do already, but some might really benefit from a bit of additional love in this regard: mostly Gravity, Darkness and Water, maybe even Life.
Gravity has two good cheap cards: Momentum and Gravity Pull. There are two problems with these cards: the first is that they completely lack synergy between themselves, as Momentum negates the CC value of Gravity Pull (and the defensive value is situational at best - except with Voodoo but that's another story). This means you probably won't splash your deck for both of these cards, rather choosing one strategy over the other, while good splashes like Air's Shockwave + Fog Shield combo or Death's Arsenic + Poison are really synergic. The second, more problematic fact is that both of them are not really all that useful to start with. Momentum is a strong answer to shields, but Deflagration or other PC cards are as cheap as it is, more efficient, work for all your creatures and can be used against no-shield opponents, making them clearly superior. That is not to say Momentum should receive a buff, as it is pretty strong when used right, but rather than Deflagration should receive a nerf (see above). As for Gravity Pull, it's underwhelming since its own element, Gravity, lacks the proper attackers to use it. With the buff to Graviton Mercenary I support above (Graviton Mercenary being a 5 cost 6/6, Graviton Guard being a 2 cost 3/6 upped) this is easily solved, as a couple Gravitons will take down any creature save the toughest. That would turn a relatively useless card into a very good combo card valuable as CC or doubling up as defense when used on Gravity's really healthy creatures. If both of those were to be introduced, Momentum would see more play chances in some off-element decks while Gravity Pull and Gravity Mercenary would become the backbone of some good Gravity decks.
Darkness has some arguably good splashable cards in Devourer, Steal, Vampire Stiletto. The problem is that Steal costs a bit too much to run it only from mark, Stiletto is useful but really can't make a deck alone - as opposed to Arsenic - and Devourer is good only in quanta denial decks or decks who benefit from more Darkness quanta... which aren't really reasons to splash them. This, coupled with the fact that Parasite is a little underpowered and requires Death quanta, Drain Life is a terrible CC card that requires a lot of darkness quanta to work properly, Dusk Shield is (rightfully) costy and Fog surclasses it in splash potential and finally Voodoo is a (perhaps THE) combo card, make Darkness one of the less splashed of all elements. Sure, some elements make good darkness duos, but they aren't exactly splashing Darkness. With Darkness, though, we run into a different problem: the element in itself is very complete. It has good attackers, CC, PC, good shields, good weapon, quanta denial, alternative quanta producer, quirky cards, combo decks, even permanent and creature protection and buffs and mono-poison with Parasite Doll and a lobotomizing effect and... well... everything. It has a card for any basic Elements the Game mechanic, even the most obscure ones. So, what can you add to Darkness to make it splashable? Shame (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19255.0.html). Not a very powerful card, but it has lots of potential uses, is a powerful rush stopper and combined with vampire dagger and dusk mantle allows for a powerful defensive set in any deck. It's a simple card that could benefit any element and turn around a damage race completely. It also doesn't break Darkness by giving it too much power, as the most abusable combo is of course to run mono-darkness with Vampires Eclipse Dusk Steal and Shame, but that is an upped deck, doesn't work as well unupped as it is too slow to avoid being stalled, has still got problems with Immorushes and decks with lots of creatures + some PC, is vulnerable to repeated CC and can be killed by alternate damage stalls, thus turning it into a powerful rush stopper, but (probably) nothing more.
Water has Freeze, which is an awesome CC card that stops a creature for three turns less than a Basilisk Blood. Also, all its other cards require a lot more quanta, even the "cheap" Ice Lance. Water has the additional problem to have a duo weapon, which means it will not be used to splash that either, and a very high cost shield. Water also has Mind Flayers and Chrysaoras, but they both require off-element quanta to work well. To turn Water into a splashable element I personally like Dessiccation (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30479.0.html): it not only provides a good mass-CC card that pairs exceptionally well with the single-CC of Freeze (and Squid), but provides a very good quanta producer that can be used from the Mark and allows for even more splashing options, including running some higher-cost Water cards only from Mark and maybe a few pendulums. Who wouldn't love to run Nymph's Tears from Mark?
Finally, Life has the exceptional Adrenaline option, which can be considered a good splashable card in and of itself, since its rather low cost requires little investment into Life quanta, and it also has the arguably good Heal. It also has Forest Scorpion to provide some poison damage into poisonless elements, but that is surclassed by Death's Poison + Arsenic option. It should finally be noted that splashing upped Frogs off of Mark can provide quite a punch into an otherwise mono deck, but that option is outranked by other possibilities most of the times. Life also suffers from a cronic lack of control cards, making it very prone to abuses from other elements (DimShield, Owl's Eyes, Elite Otyugh...). To get both problems in one pack, we have some very nice options into Lignification (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20590.0.html) (good thematic CC card with a lot of possible applications) and Vines (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18812.0.html) (which further expands on the above theme of more PC cards, while also providing an intresting take on Life's possible applications). Both these cards can be splashed, enhance Life's options and provide a good example of "soft" control cards, something an element like Life definitely needs.

Enhance each Element's strengths: (5+ cards)
This is the most controversial step, as well as the one which should require the most time. It should be noted that, up until now, this plan requires only card changes and about 4-8 cards (4 should suffice for a quick fix). That's less cards than we are expecting with the upcoming Shards patch (9 new cards!). This step, on the other hand, can be done in a longer amount of time. But it should be done nonetheless.
If you take a look at Time (one of the less-considered PvP elements) you see that it has quite a few powerful cards, some splashable cards, a good midrange attacker, good duo capability... in theory it should be a very good element. Why is it lacking this title among most players? It is because Time doesn't play enough on its strengths. If you take a look at the "best" elements, you will see that they aren't just "good" at what they do: they're awesome at it. Fire's rush capacity is beyond that of any other element. Its CC cards, when combined, are more than just very good. Aether cannot just stall, it can completely wreck its opponent if it hasn't got a good answer to DimShield. Entropy's quanta denial is the most powerful of disruptive strategies. So, what separates the other elements from these is that every one of them plays on its strengths, and can cover up their weaknesses going duo. And the most important fact is that they do so while remaining inside their own theme: Fire should rush, Aether should stall, Entropy should disrupt.
To bring the less powerful elements on par with these, we need to introduce some key cards - not necessarily too powerful, but really key cards - to enhance each element's strengths. These could be complementary cards that cover obvious weaknesses and flaws in an element, or even brand new strategic cards that introduce new decktypes into an element, but in both cases they should take an element's strengths - its theme, its quirks, its potential - and increase them by a step.
If the above changes are done, the metagame should adjust proportionally and the "top" elements should each receive a relative buff. I'm confident that Aether, Air, Darkness, Death, Earth, Entropy and Fire will be at about the same power level if all of the above is implemented. That leaves quite a few elements (Gravity, Life, Light, Time and Water) with some needs.
Gravity is really prone to Reverse Time. The proposed Graviton Mercenary buff alleviates this somewhat, but Gravity has another problem: it cannot rush effectively. Each rush option Gravity has is countered hard by a single card (Reverse Time). And that's fine, in and of itself, because there are a lot of answers to Reverse Time that Gravity could use - any alternate damage source, immortality, the buffed Mercenaries, off-element offensive creatures - but Gravity cannot truly stall either. Not as a mono. Not trying to splash another element. Again, the proposed Graviton Mercenary buff helps because of the connected Gravity Pull buff, but it's not enough: what Gravity really lacks is a way to stall as effectively as Aether. Even less effectively, but still. Armagio doesn't cut it, and Gravity Shield is too situational. Gravity needs a reliable stall option. One card that could (maybe) solve the problem is Repulsor (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27845.0.html) (credits go to 10 men, it's his idea). That, or a similar good shield, might turn Gravity around.
Life is, as noted above, completely devoid of any control option. The above suggestions of Lignification (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20590.0.html) and Vines (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18812.0.html) are maybe the best options, while a more intresting approach might be Warthog (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26661.0.html). Implementation of these cards could allow Life to rush with Adrenaline and creature spamming while not being too prone against shields, strong permanents or opposing creatures.
Light, much in the same way, has got good healing, good rush capability, good stall capability and nice synergies with other elements. What it still lacks is some control cards: Blind (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28693.0.html) and Refract (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12741.0.html) are intresting options in that direction, while I believe Vow of Purity (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26641.0.html) would be a nice weapon in Light's arsenal when it comes to quanta denial.
Time has got strong card advantage options, but lacks a reliable healing card: it is not strange that Time-based decks are common in FG farming, where Shard of Gratitude is available, but not in PvP, where it is commonly banned or restricted. A nice addition to Time would be Flowing Time (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18896.0.html) (and again, credits go to 10 men for the idea): a limited form of healing based on card drawing turns each Hourglass, Sundial and Precognition into healing engines, increases the effectiveness of Procrastination and multiplies Time's stall potential.
Water, finally, has many good options but no definite strength. It has lots of off-element costs and abilities and it pairs well with almost every element, but has little to bring to the table on its own, except a very good shield and a weaker bolt spell. While it has a good growth creature, it requires Fire to use it. It has a powerful mid-range attacker, but can't rush as effectively as many other elements unupped. It has good stall potential with squids and permafrost shield and ice lances, but is prone to CC and its very high cost cards can be rushed. All in all, Water is very balanced, but has no definite strength in neither rush nor stall decks. There are stronger stalls. There are stronger rushes. So, what I truly believe Water needs, is a card that renders it unique and expands on its "synergy" theme with other elements: a quanta producer that truly enables trios. My take on that is Gift of Thetis (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27336.0.html), but it might be a bit too powerful. I do believe that a quantum producer that allows for viable trios would make Water truly unique and intresting, as well as potentially balanced.

CARD CHANGES:
1) Deflagration cost increased to 2/3 or better yet 3/4.
2) Mirror Shield and Jade Shield changed so that if you have two in play bolts to a player are completely nullified rather than reflected only once.
3) Graviton Mercenary | Graviton Guard changed to: 5 :gravity | 2 :gravity for 6/6 and 3/6 respectively.
4) Wyrm buff: +1 attack.
5) Guardian Angel stats changed to 3/3.
6) Butterfly Effect slightly buffed (upped Destroy cost of :entropy :entropy and/or -1 cost, maybe)

NEW CARDS:
1) Touch of Midas (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21604.0.html), Windswept (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19070) and/or other PC options for other elements, with an appropriate cost (see the above Deflagration nerf).
2) Lignification (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20590.0.html) and/or Vines (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18812.0.html), or other forms of Life control cards.
3) Repulsor (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27845.0.html), or another card to increase Gravity's stall capacity.
4) Shame (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19255.0.html), Dessiccation (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30479.0.html) or other low-cost cards for Darkness and Water, to be splashed into decks from other elements.
5) Blind (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28693.0.html), Refract (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12741.0.html) and/or Vow of Purity (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26641.0.html), or other cards that expand Light's portfolio to include control or quanta denial, or simply some other card to expand Light's choices.
6) Flowing Time (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18896.0.html), or a similar healing card for Time to complement its stall capacity.
7) Gift of Thetis (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27336.0.html) or a similar special quanta producer for Water that enables the Water element to reliably run trio decks.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline dracomageat

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg388968#msg388968
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2011, 05:40:06 pm »
Note:Being complete does no mean that no cards should be added. It just means that the cards it has fills a large variety of roles so it can handle multiple situations.
No but it does mean that fire has no more need for utility cards. Any further cards added to it should be simple, elegant and fun, rather than be answers to anything already in the game.

As such I do not see the "nobody would play this over existing cards" comment on my fire creations as a problem. So long as the cards are balanced and fun, there is no need for them to serve a purpose in fire anymore.

Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg389072#msg389072
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2011, 09:01:41 pm »
Not quoting the post The Morm, but I read all of it (except the TL;DR spoiler - Ironically I took one look at the bullet points and the first sentence and gave up), and clicked on most of the links - which was a good move because usually I think that most card ideas are pretty bad.

The only bit which I'm not so sure about is the splashable cards one, I'm not a huge fan of these cards, and deck archetypes (mono X deck with 6 reverse times is just as lame) - but the rest I think would be a very good way to work on this. More variety is always more fun, Warthog and Gift of Thesis being great exapmles, I think they are/would be great little additions.


Its a shame you spoiler'd it because now people might miss it, the centrepoint of this topic (atm)
Good post.

Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg389075#msg389075
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2011, 09:07:24 pm »
Not quoting the post The Morm, but I read all of it (except the TL;DR spoiler - Ironically I took one look at the bullet points and the first sentence and gave up), and clicked on most of the links - which was a good move because usually I think that most card ideas are pretty bad.

The only bit which I'm not so sure about is the splashable cards one, I'm not a huge fan of these cards, and deck archetypes (mono X deck with 6 reverse times is just as lame) - but the rest I think would be a very good way to work on this. More variety is always more fun, Warthog and Gift of Thesis being great exapmles, I think they are/would be great little additions.


Its a shame you spoiler'd it because now people might miss it, the centrepoint of this topic (atm)
Good post.
Thank you. I spoiler'd it because I hate wall of text when I skim a topic. I feel that if you can't be bothered opening a spoiler, you'd probably skip the whole post.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg391186#msg391186
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2011, 11:58:43 am »
I'm quoting RootRanger, Napalm and EvaRia's posts here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.msg418179#msg418179). If you'd rather not be quoted, just PM me. :)
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

 

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