Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath

[Legit]

I find it interesting that the people who actually play PvP (Xeno, Root) support this card and the people that don’t play PvP oppose it. I’m not going to make assumptions but maybe many of you do not understand the magnitude of the imbalance in this game. Some elements and combos are overpowered and I’m tired of weaker elements being underused and underrepresented. An in ideal situation each element would have strengths and weaknesses and thematic cards, but they would all possess EQUAL strength. Any element or element combination should have a chance to beat any other element/element combination. I want the game to move in this direction.

Yes, this card is just slapping deflagration onto needy elements. There’s no denying that, I’ve already admitted it. However, my problem with creating new, unique, thematic abilities for PC for life/air/water, is that that they will never be as effective as existing cards. How will these (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33930.0.html) cards (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18812.0.html) help a mono Life deck destroy that Discord? Or how will they help an army of Giant Frogs get past that Dimensional Shield? Answer: THEY WON’T. New PC cards for these elements cannot compete with PC cards such as Deflag or Steal because Deflag and Steal have already “taken” the strongest and most effective ability: The simple and powerful ability to DESTROY ANY PERMANENT. New ideas will never have this versatility and ability. Even if Air/Life/Water get some form of PC they will still be outclassed by other elements.

I have some new ideas for some cards so I will post these later and hopefully they will be perfect and fit into your narrow, demanding views.

[Xenocidius]

This is exactly what the game needs in my opinion. Unfortunately, the narrow-minded voters who don't understand what is actually good for the game probably won't vote for it. I expect to see this archived. Such a pity too.

[Scaredgirl]

I will not vote for this idea but it does not make me narrow-minded. I don't vote for this idea because, like mentioned before, this is just "Explosion when you have X Mark.". I find that mechanic to be pretty boring because there are a million different and totally unique ways to handle permanent destruction. Using something we already have, would be silly. I like new cards that are new, not new cards that are alternative versions of cards we already have.

This is not the only way to do permanent destruction and to balance PvP. The fact that Deflag destroys one permanent, does not mean it is the ultimate PC and no other card can ever achieve the same. For example the quick idea I posted in this same topic would be better than Deflag in certain situations. And there are dozens of other similar ideas posted on the forums.

If other elements want PC, they need something different. Giving Deflag to all elements would be nothing more than bad game design.

[ZephyrPhantom]

I will not vote for this idea but it does not make me narrow-minded. I don't vote for this idea because, like mentioned before, this is just "Explosion when you have X Mark."

Agreed. I dislike the idea's method of introducing PC, but just because I don't like something doesn't mean I'm narrow-minded.

However...

Giving Deflag to all elements would be nothing more than bad game design.

Not necessarily - the same effect can work in a different element if done right (Steal vs. Deflag are basically the same effect with an extra benefit tacked onto Steal).

Balance-wise/Meta-wise, the card is good and does what it's supposed to do well.
On the flipside, it lacks the "theme"-ness I feel that makes me feel that it's a card of it's own. (See Windswept (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19070.0.html) for a similar idea of "Explosion in another Element". Pierce (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20348.0.html) remixes the concept 1 step further but makes it feel different from already existing Explosion and Steal by doing damage instead and limiting to shields.  Collaspe (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30993) is an example of a "copy" in a different element. All three are basically "Explosion with something special tacked on", but have their own merit - Windswept suggests an interesting combo and justification by the author, Pierce is a damage-dealer that reminds one of Spell OTKs, and Collaspe is just plain straightfoward and can deal with certain cards better than a normal EQ or Deflag.)

When I see this card, I think two things - "PC for a weak element that really needs it" and "It's cool, but it doesn't really feel right."  It might just be that the description is kind of long for such a simple effect or that the theme is iffy (Probably the former), but I think the card still has room to expand.

Zanzarino is a smart guy, rest assured he does not want one element to be stronger than any other. He would like people to find how to use each element in skilled ways to overcome the opponent, and at this point in time, we're not quite there.

Know that with each card introduced, Zanzarino will attempt to balance elements, bring forth themes, and make this game a whole lot better.

I know where your heart lies Legit, I'm sure all of ours lie there too.

Overall, I agree with Hyroen. We've come a long way, but the game is far from balanced and some Elements aren't even complete (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30640.0.html). While we can design lots of cards, it ultimately comes down to how much Zanz takes notice.

Just my 2 as always.

[OldTrees]

I find it interesting that the people who actually play PvP (Xeno, Root) support this card and the people that don’t play PvP oppose it. I’m not going to make assumptions but maybe many of you do not understand the magnitude of the imbalance in this game. Some elements and combos are overpowered and I’m tired of weaker elements being underused and underrepresented. An in ideal situation each element would have strengths and weaknesses and thematic cards, but they would all possess EQUAL strength. Any element or element combination should have a chance to beat any other element/element combination. I want the game to move in this direction.

Yes, this card is just slapping deflagration onto needy elements. There’s no denying that, I’ve already admitted it. However, my problem with creating new, unique, thematic abilities for PC for life/air/water, is that that they will never be as effective as existing cards. How will these (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33930.0.html) cards (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18812.0.html) help a mono Life deck destroy that Discord? Or how will they help an army of Giant Frogs get past that Dimensional Shield? Answer: THEY WON’T. New PC cards for these elements cannot compete with PC cards such as Deflag or Steal because Deflag and Steal have already “taken” the strongest and most effective ability: The simple and powerful ability to DESTROY ANY PERMANENT. New ideas will never have this versatility and ability. Even if Air/Life/Water get some form of PC they will still be outclassed by other elements.

I have some new ideas for some cards so I will post these later and hopefully they will be perfect and fit into your narrow, demanding views.

Summary of situation:
Those that focus on playing want a fix now.
Those that focus on designing feel a better fix can be designed.
I loved your first card (antiCC if IIRC). I know you have the ability to design something that not only fixes current problems but also expands the game at the same time.

You are having trouble imagining a new, unique, thematic PC ability that is not overshadowed by Destroy. You conclude that it is therefore impossible. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Deflagration costs 3 |2 + 1 card to Destroy 1 permanent. That sentence has 3 main variables to modifty to create other forms of PC that are balanced with Deflagration.
A -> BxC
you can
1) lower B and increase C
2) lower C and increase B
3) lower A and lower B
4) lower A and lower C
5) increase A and increase B
6) increase A and increase C

Methods 1 and 3 are possible* and would be balanced against Deflagration. You probably want to use method 6 as well to make it more useful in non rainbow decks.

*I am willing to describe obvious examples but I think you already know some.

[Naesala]

Several (if not all) Card games I have ever played reuse card ideas with just different conditions, stats, or elements. Yu-Gi_oh, MtG, Pokemon, as well as several online card games. original cards are fun and great, but that doesn't mean we should say no to an idea just because it's recycled. They do not have to have something different. If they did, then why have pegasus and wyrm? why have the 12 dragons or vanilla creatures? flesh spider and phase spider? oty and scarab? sure, scarab also has swarm where as oty starts with slightly higher HP, but devour and the idea of devour is recycled. Abilities should be allowed to be recycled, especially for a cause like balance. Heck, Pulvy and Deflag do the same thing, just using differant quanta.

[RootRanger]

This is not the only way to do permanent destruction and to balance PvP. The fact that Deflag destroys one permanent, does not mean it is the ultimate PC and no other card can ever achieve the same. For example the quick idea I posted in this same topic would be better than Deflag in certain situations. And there are dozens of other similar ideas posted on the forums.

If other elements want PC, they need something different. Giving Deflag to all elements would be nothing more than bad game design.

The point is to give PC to Elements that need PC as well as giving a Discord counter to Elements that need a Discord counter.

Your idea only fixes the first problem. It won't be very helpful against Discord when Discord denies even playing creatures.

If you can first find a card idea thread that gives weak Elements PC and a hard counter to Discord, then uniqueness will start to matter.

[OldTrees]

Several (if not all) Card games I have ever played reuse card ideas with just different conditions, stats, or elements. Yu-Gi_oh, MtG, Pokemon, as well as several online card games. original cards are fun and great, but that doesn't mean we should say no to an idea just because it's recycled. They do not have to have something different. If they did, then why have pegasus and wyrm? why have the 12 dragons or vanilla creatures? flesh spider and phase spider? oty and scarab? sure, scarab also has swarm where as oty starts with slightly higher HP, but devour and the idea of devour is recycled. Abilities should be allowed to be recycled, especially for a cause like balance. Heck, Pulvy and Deflag do the same thing, just using differant quanta.

This is a good point however recycling and adding new mechanics both have a time and place. Your reused Devouer example is a great case where an old mechanic was reused so a new mechanic could be introduced. The same is true for Pulvy and BE reusing Destroy but in a significantly different way. Reuse without significant positive difference is a mistake. Reuse with significant negative difference is right out.

Usually*: Old < Old + New < New
*Sometimes that last sign is reversed.

As a sidenote: It is often better to fix a problem is 3 ways so gameplay does not require usage of the first option.
Discord is weak to: Other Cost, PC, Instant Quanta, ...

[moomoose]

"I find it interesting that the people who actually play PvP (Xeno, Root) support this card and the people that don’t play PvP oppose it."

its not like anyone is saying those elements dont need pc, just saying this card is a rather lame attempt at doing so.  this topic is more suited for a "buff this element" subforum or the "which elements are incomplete?" topic than the cia forum, because this card idea is severely lacking, relative to the card ideas which have made it to levels 2+.  other card ideas have been made for these respective elements with PC potential, its not like it is a 'this card for pc or no card for pc' situation.

just from memory and/or quick search of level 3
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34345.0.html / duo PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26661.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21004.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7206.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17926.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20348.0.html pc

[RootRanger]

just from memory and/or quick search of level 3
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34345.0.html / duo PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26661.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21004.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7206.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17926.0.html PC
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20348.0.html pc

I went to all of those ideas. Not one of them countered Discord

The point of Natural Disaster isn't only to give PC to weaker Elements; it's to provide a counter to Discord for weaker Elements.

I don't know how many times this will have to be repeated in this thread. I believe this is the 5th post that has mentioned it and you still ignore it.

[moomoose]

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17926.0.html can freeze the weapon, = potential counter
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34345.0.html makes it not function for 2 turns (and can be reapplied)= counter
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26661.0.html chance to destroy it = potential counter
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21004.0.html destroy target permanent = really a counter, really.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7206.0.html disable target (can be reapplied) = counter

did you even look at them? really?

and if you want another counter for discord for these elements, something better can be thought up for that, too (but as it stands, this card is generalized as to destroy anything, discord or otherwise).  it doesnt even have to be pc, there can be things along the lines of sanctuary.  hell if you want to make a "deep sea" card which prevents alteration of quanta during the opponent's turn, that'd be fine.  or an card called "high skies" that does something similar for air.  toss in something else thematic in with those cards if you want to really extend the interest level and usefulness.  the point is- bad PC cards for the sake of having a PC card is lame, and if are really just after a counter for discord, be it with PC or quanta manipulation protection, put some more creative thought into it instead of the PC soup card here.

[RootRanger]

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17926.0.html can freeze the weapon, = potential counter
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34345.0.html makes it not function for 2 turns (and can be reapplied)= counter
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26661.0.html chance to destroy it = potential counter
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21004.0.html destroy target permanent = really a counter, really.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7206.0.html disable target (can be reapplied) = counter

did you even look at them? really?

I expect the average player to be familiar with Discord's mechanics especially after more than a thousand posts. I guess these high expectations are my fault. Sorry.

I'll give you a little bit of help. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2028.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2028.0.html)

Discord converts quanta into other Elements, which means it takes a while to pay for the cards you linked. Basically, they won't work. And yes, I know this because I actually have experience playing against and using Discord.

and if you want another counter for discord for these elements, something better can be thought up for that, too.  it doesnt even have to be pc

One of the points of this card is to provide PC to Elements that need it.

This is going to be difficult for some people, but try considering a card that can do two things at once: providing PC to weak Elements and countering Discord.