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Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389404#msg389404
« on: September 05, 2011, 06:21:13 pm »
Fire in and of itself is not too powerful. Each individual card is balanced. The thing that makes it seem too powerful is that it is, as Eva put it, "Complete." The element itself lacks nothing. With the addition of healing to other elements, Fire can stall using Fahrenheit and Fire Bolt with the sole intent of winning by damage, not by deck out. With cheap Immolation Fuel from other elements, Fire can rush better than most any other rush. With Deflagration, Fire's main worry is PA and Bonewall. With Phoenix, Fire can rely on creature damage that otherwise would be easily removed.

Because of it's wide card base, it can compete on all fronts. Something no other element can do quite as well. Death comes pretty close, but it just isn't quite there. If other elements were "Complete," Fire would no longer seem to be too powerful.

Which elements are "Complete"?
What are the "incomplete" ones missing?
What areas do the "Complete" elements have a low number of options?

In my opinion, an element does not have to have every aspect of the game to be 'complete'. Rather, an element should be able to fill a wide spectrum of decks in a mono or functional mono.

By my reasoning, there are four basic deck classifications:

* Rush: Focuses on gaining massive damage with minimal or no control.

* Charge: Focuses on gaining control and then quickly increasing damage.

* Domination: Focuses on gaining control and then slowly increasing damage.

* Stall: Focuses on gaining massive control with minimal or no damage.

These of course all have their own sub-classifications, the most prominent being a form of domination that denies the opponent of resources.
First Stage of Completeness: Solid Offense
Which Elements have Solid mono offensive methods? (Fire has: Immolation jumpstarting Phoenixes/Crimson Dragons, Fire Spirit damage ramp, Fahenheit and Fire Bolt)
Which Elements have a low number of Solid mono offensive methods?
Which Elements lack any Solid offensive methods? (I hope the answer is none. Please provide reasoning if you suspect an Element to be deficient)

Second Stage of Completeness: Solid Defense
Is there anything that the Element cannot directly defend against? Can it indirectly defend against that or is it defenseless against it in mono?
For things it can defend against, is it low on defensive measures against that threat? (Low is relative.)

Third Stage of Completeness: Counter Defense or Evasion (might be controversial)
Is there any defense that completely negates all/most of the Element's Offensive methods?
Does the element have a means of defending its offense (either partially or completely) from that defense, bypass the defense or remove the defense?

Offensive Methods
All have ", Deckout (the free method)" implied but there is no deckout accelerating tools yet.
:aetherMelee (2 variants Phase Dragon or Phase Recluse)
Swarm (1.5 variants Fractal+Spark or Fractal+Phase Recluse)
:airMelee (3 variants Wyrms, Dragons or Animated Owl's Eyes. Skyblitz Augments)
:darknessMelee (2 variants Dragons or Gargoyles. Eclipses Augments)
Spell (1 variant Drain Life)
:deathMelee (5 variants Dragons, Mummys, Vultures or Recluses)
Poison (2 variants Poison or Arsenic)
:earthMelee (2 variants Shriekers or Dragons)
:entropyMelee (2 variants Abominations or Dragons. Chaos Power Augments)
:fireMelee (4 variants Phoenixes, Dragons, Fire spirits or Farhenheit)
Spell (1 variant Fire Lances)
:gravityMelee (3 variants Chargers, Dragons or Acceleration)
:lifeMelee (3 variants Frogs, Cockatrices or Dragons. Adrenaline Augments)
Swarm (1 variant Mitosis. Adrenaline augments)
Poison (1 variant Forest Scorpion. Adrenaline augments)
:lightMelee (3 variants Dragons, Archangels or Crusader. Blessing Augments)
:timeMelee (2 variants Dragons or Ghosts)
Swarm (2 variants Pharaoh or Scarabs)
:waterMelee (3 variants Abyss Crawlers, Dragons or ToadFishes|Pufferfishes)
Spell (1 variant Ice Bolt)
Poison (1 variant Pufferfish)
I did not include any weapon without scaling damage or Animate Weapon in element. If you disagree then there would be +1 variant for melee.
Defensive Tools
 :aether :air :darkness :death :earth :entropy
 :aether
Lightining (Remove up to 30 creature hp [Targets])
Lobotomy (Remove creature skills [Targets])
Dimensional Shield (Negates creature attack for 3 turns [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Spell, Poison or Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :air
Fog Shield (Mitigate creature attack [Does not Target])
Wings (Negates walking creature attack [Does not Target])
Shockwave (Remove up to 24 creature hp mono [Targets])
Snipe (Remove 3 creature hp [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Spell, Poison or Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :darkness
Dusk Mantle | Improved Dusk (Mitigate creature attack [Does not Target])
Drain Life | Syphon Life (Remove variable creature hp [Targets])
Liquid Shadow | Liquid Shadow (Remove creature skills, remove creature hp over time [Targets])
Steal (Remove permanent [Targets])
Devourer (Remove quanta hence Disabling cards in hand [Does not Target])
Various forms of healing (Mitigate/Negate damage [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Method.

 :death
Virus (Creature Removal by infection [Targets])
Skull Shield (Creature Negation|Mitigation [Does not Target])
Plague (Mass Creature Removal by infection [Targets])
Bone Wall (Creature Attack Negation [Does not Target])
Alfatoxin (Creature Removal by 2xInfection and Creature Card Disable by clogging field [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Spell, Poison or Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :earth
Titaninum Shield (Creature Attack Mitigation [Does not Target])
Earthquake (Disable Cards by lack of resources [Targets])
Stone Skin (Damage Mitigation [Does not Target])
Basilisk Blood (Disable Creature for 6 turns [Targets])
Warden (Disable Creature [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :entropy
Maxwelll (Atk heavy Creature removal [Targets])
Antimatter (Creature attack negation, heal Target Attack, attack effects neglected [Targets])
Chaos Seed (Cast variable negative effect spell [Targets]
Pandemonium (Cast variable negative effect spell, mass [Targets]
Dissipation (Creature attack negation, sacrifice quanta [Does not Target])
Mutation (Creature mitigation, alters creature make-up [Targets])
Discord (Disable Cards, alters 10 quanta element [Attack])
Butterfly Effect (Remove creature skills limited, remove permanent [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.


 :fire :gravity :life :light :time :water
 
 :fire
Rage Potion (remove up to 30|36 creature hp [Targets])
Fire Bolt (remove variable creature hp [Targets])
Rain of Fire (Mass creature removal by 3 damage [Targets])
Fire Shield (Creature negation [Does not Target])
Deflagration (Remove Permanent [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :gravity
Gravity Shield | Gravity Shield (Situational creature attack negation [Does not Target])
Gravity Pull (remove up to 6 creatures, requires creature damage present, creature attack mitigation [Targets])
Armagio (Creature attack mitigation[Does not Target])
Otyugh (Remove creature with less hp [Targets])
Black Hole (remove 3 of each quanta hence Disabling cards in hand [Does not Target])
Acceleration (Remove creature skill, remove creature HP over time [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :life
Carapace (Creature negation by infection [Does not Target])
Mitosis (Remove creature skill [Targets])
Emerald Shield | Jade Shield (Creature attack mitigation, spell damage negation by reflection [Does not Target])
Various forms of healing [Does not Target]
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :light
Reflective Shield (Upgraded creature damage mitigation, spell damage negation by reflection [Does not Target])
Holy Light (Remove up to 60 Darkness/Death creature hp, creature attack mitigation [Targets])
Luciferin (creature attack mitigation, augments Hope [Does not Target])
Hope (Variable creature attack mitigation [Does not Target])
Miracle (Variable damage mitigation[Does not Target])
Sanctuary (Damage mitigation [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

:time
Reverse Time (Creature mitigation by reset to hand, prevents deckout [Targets])
Procrastination (Creature attack mitigation [Does not Target])
Sundial (Creature attack negation [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Spell or Poison Offensive Methods.

:water
Purify (Creature attack mitigation, poison attack negation [Does not Target])
Flooding (Creature negation [Does not Target])
Ice Shield (creature attack mitigation/Disable creature [Does not Target])
Freeze (Disable Creature [Targets])
Ice bolt (Remove variable creature hp, disable creature [Targets])
No Defense Methods against Spell or Deckout Offensive Methods.

Most elements are lacking significantly in Evasion/Counterdefense
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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389406#msg389406
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 06:26:00 pm »
 :entropy, :death and :fire is by far the most complete.
 :water, :life, :time and :air is pretty incomplete in mono enviroment. Though :life can rush way better than the other 'incomplete'.
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Offline Nepycros

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389408#msg389408
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 06:27:10 pm »
Darkness is relatively complete. They've managed to get healing via spell, permanent, and creature format, they have shield that can ignore damage based on a flip of the coin, they have the only 'mass-buff' available, a decent heavy attack creature (Gargoyle can be synergized with several other elements because of its ability; Black Dragon because of its decent stats and buff-worthiness), an amazingly powerful quanta denial/quanta generator, a hand lock ability, good CC, poor CC, PC/Permanent addition, etc... The only thing it lacks is an absolute rush strategy, due to the problem that all its low-costing creatures are rather wimpy.
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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389411#msg389411
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 06:37:39 pm »
Table time! I've probably missed a lot, I just slapped this together a minute ago. And I skipped the dragons because all the elements have those.
:PHealingDamageIndividual CCMass CCPCBuff
:entropyAntimatterAntimatter, Maxwell's Demon, Chaos SeedPandemoniumChaos Power
:deathCondor, Arsenic, Poison, Mummy, RecluseAflatoxinPlague
:gravityCharger, OverdriveGravity Pull, OtyughPulverizerMomentum
:earthStone SkinGolemBasilisk's Blood, WardenPulverizer
:lifeHealDragon, Cockatrice, FrogCarapaceAdrenaline
:fireGolem, Phoenix, Bolt, FahrenheitRage PotionFire Shield, FirestormExplosionRage Potion
:waterPurifyAbyss Crawler, BoltFreeze, Arctic Squid, BoltIce ShieldBolt
:lightSanctuary, MiracleArchangelBlessing
:airUnstable Gas, Sky Blitz, Firefly Queen Shockwave, Owl's EyeUnstable Gas, Thunderstorm(shockwave, not really)
:timeGhost of the Past, PharaohRewind, EternityProcrastination, and maybe you could count Pharaoh
:darknessVampire, Vampire Dagger, Liquid ShadowGargoyleSiphon Life, Parasite, Liquid ShadowStealEclipse
:aetherPhase Recluse, Twin UniverseThunderbolt, Lobotomizer

Offline Nepycros

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389415#msg389415
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 06:40:41 pm »
Table time! I've probably missed a lot, I just slapped this together a minute ago.
:PHealingDamageIndividual CCMass CCPCBuff
:entropyAntimatterAntimatter, Maxwell's Demon, Chaos SeedPandemoniumChaos Power
:deathCondor, Arsenic, PoisonAflatoxinPlague
:gravityCharger, OverdriveGravity Pull, OtyughPulverizerMomentum
:earthStone SkinGolemBasilisk's Blood, WardenPulverizer
:lifeDragon, Cockatrice, FrogCarapaceAdrenaline
:fireGolem, Phoenix, Bolt, FahrenheitRage PotionFire Shield, FirestormExplosionRage Potion
:waterPurifyAbyss CrawlerFreeze, Arctic SquidIce Shield
:lightSanctuary, MiracleArchangelBlessing
:airUnstable Gas, Sky Blitz, Dragon, Shockwave, Owl's EyeUnstable Gas(shockwave, not really)
:timeGhost of the PastRewind, EternityProcrastination
:darknessVampire, Vampire DaggerSiphon Life, ParasiteStealEclipse
:aetherPhase Recluse, Twin UniverseThunderbolt, Lobotomizer
Liquid Shadow is a form of CC, as well as another means of healing for the player. On top of that, Siphon Life works as a Healing format, and Gargoyle functions in Damage.
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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389416#msg389416
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 06:42:08 pm »
Yup, I'm still editing. :)

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389417#msg389417
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 06:46:31 pm »
The table is useful but looking at each element individually probably is more accurate. (Fire does not use healing to be able to stall or counter rush.)

Also the more detail the better.
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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389423#msg389423
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 06:54:39 pm »
Where's the line between "all elements are generally all the same" and "all elements are somewhat balanced, unique, have a combination of things no other element has?"

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389424#msg389424
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 06:57:51 pm »
In my opinion, an element does not have to have every aspect of the game to be 'complete'. Rather, an element should be able to fill a wide spectrum of decks in a mono or functional mono.

By my reasoning, there are four basic deck classifications:

* Rush: Focuses on gaining massive damage with minimal or no control.

* Charge: Focuses on gaining control and then quickly increasing damage.

* Domination: Focuses on gaining control and then slowly increasing damage.

* Stall: Focuses on gaining massive control with minimal or no damage.

These of course all have their own sub-classifications, the most prominent being a form of domination that denies the opponent of resources.

In my opinion, Entropy is the most complete element.

:entropy has solid damage via good attackers, buff spells, and a alt. quanta producer.
:entropy has solid control via single and mass CC, healing, and quanta denial.

Fire is the next most complete element.

:fire has solid damage via quanta producers, high attackers, and direct damage.
:fire has solid control via single and mass CC and basic PC.

I consider Entropy to be more complete than fire, because Fire lacks healing and quanta denial. However, Fire does not need either of these because it has a very high cost-to-attack ratio and better direct control than Entropy.


The only elements I would not consider complete are Gravity and Time. Neither of these have direct (killing) CC or a fast and simple rush. Life and Light also do not have any direct (killing) CC, but both of these are more powerful at rushing and healing.

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389432#msg389432
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 07:04:01 pm »
The table is useful but looking at each element individually probably is more accurate. (Fire does not use healing to be able to stall or counter rush.)

Also the more detail the better.
Isn't Fire's ability to stall based on the amount of CC it has? And what kind of detail are you looking for? Explanations for cards?

Looking at individual elements can get the things I don't know how to categorize. Examples: Quintessence, Voodoo Doll, and Armagio, and the immaterial skill of Immortal and Phase Dragon. "Resistance to CC" maybe? And Mindgate, Crusader, Enchant Artifact, etc.

I also forgot Denial and other forms of quanta generation in the table.

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389452#msg389452
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 07:52:06 pm »
Thanks ddevans96 for the example.

Complete:
Solid damage & Solid control
The manner each element achieves these goals may/will be different.

Also I would like to know if an element has a low number of options for a category or sub category (a method of damage or control).
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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg389483#msg389483
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 09:00:27 pm »
I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

 

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