[Official] Guardian Angel | Archangel

[ZephyrPhantom]

I actually like Archangel as it is and wouldn't like to see the heal skill disappear.
The heal ability is pretty damn usefull and saved me in alot of matches.

Your blind skill is nice aswell but more suited for a different creature imo.

I agree. Angel's healing is important to some decks like Raging/Acceleration Angels or Angels w/ Armagio. I think it's fine as it is, though blind could work on another creature.

[zse]

1. Necro much?
2. The healing is a core part of the card. Mess around with what heal does or stats but not the  skill.

1. ???
2. Very true! Angels are thematically right that: entities that protect/heal others.

So RR and other people making such suggestions for major changes on abilities, please go there
 --> How to Successfully Post a Card Idea (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5039.0.html) <--
There is absolutely no need to remove already existing cards from the game. Though adding some new cards, like for example that Bling-bling Angel RR suggested, could be a good thing for this game.

[RootRanger]

New cards introduce new strategies, but they need artwork and the community has to take time to adapt to them. Buffing a severely underpowered card introduces a new strategy into the game without the task of making artwork, and without the community needing time to take in the new card. When something is as useless as the Guardian Angel, nothing will be lost if the old version is replaced by something new. And RR's suggestion is great.

For those of you that still think the Guardian Angel a balanced card, keep in mind that it's never going to be worth adding it in to a deck. Every now and then healing would be useful, but it is too situational to be worth the card slot and quantum cost. It's just like the old purify, which was buffed. Some people think that Guardian Angel can be useful with Rage Potion, LS, and Acceleration, but it's still not really worth it.

Rage Potion + Guardian Angel gives a 6|6 creature for the cost of 2 cards and 7 quanta. But for 1 card and 5 quanta, you could have a 6|4 creature (Toadfish) with a decent ability. Or for 1 card and 7 quanta you can get a 7|1 creature (Phoenix) that costs one less card, deals more damage, and has better resilience. Seriously, Rage Potion + Guardian Angel is completely outclassed by other offense strategies. Even the Abomination, which is one of the weaker creatures, is better than Guardian Angel + Rage Potion. If you give 1 Guardian Angel 2 Rage Potions, you'll have an 11|6 creature for 3 cards and 11 quanta. But for 2 cards and 7 quanta, you can get a creature with the exact same stats (Blessed Graboid). That's 1 less card and 4 less quanta for something that is pretty much just as strong.

Guardian Angel could be used with LS, but it isn't really worth it. The best creature Light has to take LS is its Dragon, with 10 hp. You can get 4 attacks in before even being in the range of standard CC options (Lightning, Rage Potion), but by then you'll be close to winning if you have support. Guardian Angel could only be useful if your only other creature is a LS'ed Dragon and if your opponent is also using CC like Lightning and Rage Potion. Very situational.

The last option is Acceleration with Guardian Angel, but Voodoo Acceleration does this better in every way possible. It's quicker, deals more damage, and Voodoo Doll is more resilient.


TL:DR Version
Guardian Angel is just never worth putting into a deck, and buffing it is a lot better than introducing a new card.

[Toxx]

I don't think it needs a buff but removing poision would make a good card even better

[RootRanger]

I don't think it needs a buff but removing poision would make a good card even better

You say it doesn't need a buff and that it's a good card, but why? Because you have competitive PvP experience? Because you provide reasons for your arguments? I've seen a lot of your posts like this: you give your opinion, but you do not give any reason why you have formed that opinion. That doesn't get the thread anywhere and it's just spam. If you want to contribute to the Buff and Nerf threads, then you'll need to provide reasons why you think your opinion is right. Providing your opinion alone just isn't enough.

So, do you actually have reasons why you think Guardian Angel doesn't need a buff? I would love to hear them. Otherwise, your opinion doesn't really have any weight.

Lastly, good cards are not supposed to be made better. Extremely bad cards are supposed to be made better, and extremely good cards are supposed to be made worse. That's how you balance a game; it's just common sense.

[johannhowitzer]

For those of you that still think the Guardian Angel a balanced card, keep in mind that it's never going to be worth adding it in to a deck. Every now and then healing would be useful, but it is too situational to be worth the card slot and quantum cost. It's just like the old purify, which was buffed. Some people think that Guardian Angel can be useful with Rage Potion, LS, and Acceleration, but it's still not really worth it.

Gravity Pull.

[zse]

New cards introduce new strategies, but they need artwork and the community has to take time to adapt to them. Buffing a severely underpowered card introduces a new strategy into the game without the task of making artwork, and without the community needing time to take in the new card. When something is as useless as the Guardian Angel, nothing will be lost if the old version is replaced by something new. And RR's suggestion is great.

Getting artwork and such is hardly a thing that hinders introduction of new cards. Most likely the coding and balancing new cards is much more time consuming.

For those of you that still think the Guardian Angel a balanced card, keep in mind that it's never going to be worth adding it in to a deck. Every now and then healing would be useful, but it is too situational to be worth the card slot and quantum cost. It's just like the old purify, which was buffed. Some people think that Guardian Angel can be useful with Rage Potion, LS, and Acceleration, but it's still not really worth it.

Rage Potion + Guardian Angel gives a 6|6 creature for the cost of 2 cards and 7 quanta. But for 1 card and 5 quanta, you could have a 6|4 creature (Toadfish) with a decent ability. Or for 1 card and 7 quanta you can get a 7|1 creature (Phoenix) that costs one less card, deals more damage, and has better resilience. Seriously, Rage Potion + Guardian Angel is completely outclassed by other offense strategies. Even the Abomination, which is one of the weaker creatures, is better than Guardian Angel + Rage Potion. If you give 1 Guardian Angel 2 Rage Potions, you'll have an 11|6 creature for 3 cards and 11 quanta. But for 2 cards and 7 quanta, you can get a creature with the exact same stats (Blessed Graboid). That's 1 less card and 4 less quanta for something that is pretty much just as strong.

Guardian Angel could be used with LS, but it isn't really worth it. The best creature Light has to take LS is its Dragon, with 10 hp. You can get 4 attacks in before even being in the range of standard CC options (Lightning, Rage Potion), but by then you'll be close to winning if you have support. Guardian Angel could only be useful if your only other creature is a LS'ed Dragon and if your opponent is also using CC like Lightning and Rage Potion. Very situational.

The last option is Acceleration with Guardian Angel, but Voodoo Acceleration does this better in every way possible. It's quicker, deals more damage, and Voodoo Doll is more resilient.
TL:DR Version
Guardian Angel is just never worth putting into a deck, and buffing it is a lot better than introducing a new card.

I do agree to some extent. Guardian Angel is pretty useless card, but Archangel surely isn't, since at least Rol/Hope, Rage/Angel and even some Speedbows use it. To me that shows only Guardian actually needs buff. Probably the card should see more play if its stats/cost -ratio would be better. Or alternatively if it could heal yourself too. Now Archangel is pretty much perfect counter for Fire Shield and Plague, and changing the ability to that Bling-bling would ruin that strategy completely.

TL:DR Version
Boost Guardian Angel attack OR change ability for Holy Light type healing (no damage) for the target.
NO major change for Angel abilities.

[Toxx]

I don't think it needs a buff but removing poision would make a good card even better

You say it doesn't need a buff and that it's a good card, but why? Because you have competitive PvP experience? Because you provide reasons for your arguments? I've seen a lot of your posts like this: you give your opinion, but you do not give any reason why you have formed that opinion. That doesn't get the thread anywhere and it's just spam. If you want to contribute to the Buff and Nerf threads, then you'll need to provide reasons why you think your opinion is right. Providing your opinion alone just isn't enough.

So, do you actually have reasons why you think Guardian Angel doesn't need a buff? I would love to hear them. Otherwise, your opinion doesn't really have any weight.

Lastly, good cards are not supposed to be made better. Extremely bad cards are supposed to be made better, and extremely good cards are supposed to be made worse. That's how you balance a game; it's just common sense.

Well... Guardian Angel kinda suck but if you have it out in the right situation it's great. The upped Archangel is very useful though because once you play it, it's pretty much indestructible and helps make other card's the same. I don't think my Archangel ever died unless I was facing a FG that use'd a bunch of CC card's at once or had a gravity pull use on it; One of Archangel only weaknesses. Player's in PvP never even think about touching Archangel and while facing the regular AI they may try to kill it but you can easily heal it the very next turn. Guardfian Angel/Archangel healing ability saved my low HP creature's against card's like fire shield and Rain of Fire countless time's which I know if I didn't have Archangel out I would lose. Also it has nice 7Attk/7HP with an nice ability for only 6 quanta, good synergy and useful in bows. In the end Guardian Angel/Archangel is a good balaced card that don't need a buff it's just a underused card, thats very situational. As more CC cards come in the game you'll see how great having an Guardian Angel can be. If Guardian Angel were to get a buff it should just be in Attk to make it more closer to it's upped form, but it really don't need one imo.

The abilities blind and remove poision from creatures should be added to new future cards I also think.

I'll post more of a reason in my future posts but usually everyone agree's that a card should be buff or nerf for the same reasons, I see how it can be seen as spam though.

[RootRanger]

For those of you that still think the Guardian Angel a balanced card, keep in mind that it's never going to be worth adding it in to a deck. Every now and then healing would be useful, but it is too situational to be worth the card slot and quantum cost. It's just like the old purify, which was buffed. Some people think that Guardian Angel can be useful with Rage Potion, LS, and Acceleration, but it's still not really worth it.

Gravity Pull.

Using Guardian Angel in a Gravity Pull deck isn't even worth it, especially since there is a 1-turn delay. After 2 turns, you'll have done 2 damage and 5 healing for 4 quanta, but in the same amount of time, Mummy can do 10 damage for 4 quanta, which is a lot better. After 3 turns, you'll have done 3 damage and 10 healing for 5 quanta, but Toadfish can do 18 damage for the same amount of quanta in the same amount of time. After 4 turns, you'll have done 4 damage and 15 healing for 6 quanta, but GotP can do 28 damage in the same amount of turns for the same amount of quanta. After 5 turns, you'll have done 5 damage and 20 healing for 7 quanta, but Graboid can do 34 damage for 4 quanta in the same amount of time. Guardian Angel just can't perform as well as other creatures, even in a Gravity Pull deck, which requires a 2-3 card combo to even have the Guardian Angel's healing be useful.

Well... Guardian Angel kinda suck but if you have it out in the right situation it's great. The upped Archangel is very useful though because once you play it, it's pretty much indestructible and helps make other card's the same. I don't think my Archangel ever died unless I was facing a FG that use'd a bunch of CC card's at once or had a gravity pull use on it; One of Archangel only weaknesses. Player's in PvP never even think about touching Archangel and while facing the regular AI they may try to kill it but you can easily heal it the very next turn. Guardfian Angel/Archangel healing ability saved my low HP creature's against card's like fire shield and Rain of Fire countless time's which I know if I didn't have Archangel out I would lose. Also it has nice 7Attk/7HP with an nice ability for only 6 quanta, good synergy and useful in bows. In the end Guardian Angel/Archangel is a good balaced card that don't need a buff it's just a underused card, thats very situational. As more CC cards come in the game you'll see how great having an Guardian Angel can be. If Guardian Angel were to get a buff it should just be in Attk to make it more closer to it's upped form, but it really don't need one imo.

The abilities blind and remove poision from creatures should be added to new future cards I also think.

I'll post more of a reason in my future posts but usually everyone agree's that a card should be buff or nerf for the same reasons, I see how it can be seen as spam though.

Thanks for giving reasons this time.

While Guardian Angel can be useful in the right situation, there just aren't enough right situations for it to be worth adding into your deck. It doesn't really make cards indestructable at all. A Dragon with, say, 10 hp can still be killed by 2 Lightnings or Rage Potions. The Guardian Angel won't help you at all in that case. It can help against cards like Plague and Thorn Carapace, but those aren't nearly as common as Lightning, Rage Potion, Shockwave, and Bolts. People just prefer instantly killing creatures instead of having to wait a few turns, and that's going to make Guardian Angel's skill a very weak one. I agree that Archangel is balanced, but Guardian Angel needs a buff.

[johannhowitzer]

Using Guardian Angel in a Gravity Pull deck isn't even worth it, especially since there is a 1-turn delay. After 2 turns, you'll have done 2 damage and 5 healing for 4 quanta, but in the same amount of time, Mummy can do 10 damage for 4 quanta, which is a lot better. After 3 turns, you'll have done 3 damage and 10 healing for 5 quanta, but Toadfish can do 18 damage for the same amount of quanta in the same amount of time. After 4 turns, you'll have done 4 damage and 15 healing for 6 quanta, but GotP can do 28 damage in the same amount of turns for the same amount of quanta. After 5 turns, you'll have done 5 damage and 20 healing for 7 quanta, but Graboid can do 34 damage for 4 quanta in the same amount of time. Guardian Angel just can't perform as well as other creatures, even in a Gravity Pull deck, which requires a 2-3 card combo to even have the Guardian Angel's healing be useful.

You're comparing apples to oranges - comparing a stall tactic to rush creatures.  You don't play stalls much, do you?  And I'd use Armagio's Gravity Pull (what I meant), not the spell card - it's still a 2-card combo, gets twice the damage, and you have a much larger HP buffer before your protection dies.  Ever played Dark Matter?  If he has several Elite Armagios and Archangels out, he can stall very effectively.  Guardian Angel may not be Archangel, but there are unupped PvP settings - and since rushes are inherently weaker in unupped settings, Angel Armagio is that much more powerful.

It can help against cards like Plague and Thorn Carapace, but those aren't nearly as common as Lightning, Rage Potion, Shockwave, and Bolts. People just prefer instantly killing creatures instead of having to wait a few turns, and that's going to make Guardian Angel's skill a very weak one.

I get the sense you've played against one too many firestalls.  Say you face a Death/Darkness opponent... what kind of CC are you going to be dealing with?  Parasites probably, or Plague, or maybe Drain Life.  If your opponent is Life/Light?  Any CC you face is going to be Thorn Carapace.  A fire deck?  Guardian Angel will STILL help you, since Fire Bolt and Rage Potion aren't the only CC options - a single Guardian Angel can help your whole field survive against a Fire Shield, which is a popular option in Fire stalls, come to think of it!  If you face an Air deck?  You've just slowed that Owl's Eye WAAAAY down, if not halted it completely.

Guardian Angel is not a rush card, its use is in stall decks - both to stabilize an offense (necessarily slow in a stall), and to bolster your defense in some deck designs.  It should not be compared with other rush tactics.

[RootRanger]

You're comparing apples to oranges - comparing a stall tactic to rush creatures.

Damage and healing are definitely related. The most common win condition is to do 100 damage before losing 100 HP. Damage and healing will both help you. Against some opponents, damage is more valuable, and against some opponents, healing is more valuable, but overall, Damage and Healing have close to equal weight.

You don't play stalls much, do you?

Having a different opinion than you doesn't mean that I have less experience with stalls than you. Of course I play stalls, they are a key part in the metagame, and not playing stalls would leave my gameplay very weak to certain strategies.

And I'd use Armagio's Gravity Pull (what I meant), not the spell card - it's still a 2-card combo, gets twice the damage, and you have a much larger HP buffer before your protection dies.

As I said before, the Angel isn't useful in a deck with Gravity Pull: your target for Gravity Pull (in this case, Armagio) makes no difference. And against many decks, the Armagio will die in one or two turns.

Ever played Dark Matter?  If he has several Elite Armagios and Archangels out, he can stall very effectively.  Guardian Angel may not be Archangel, but there are unupped PvP settings - and since rushes are inherently weaker in unupped settings, Angel Armagio is that much more powerful.

Dark Matter is an upgraded FG, which has very little to do with unupgraded PvP, which is what the Guardian Angel should be balanced based on. Have you tried Angel Armagio in competitive PvP? It's not a powerful combo.

I get the sense you've played against one too many firestalls.

Firestalls are the most common type of stall, so they should have more weight when balancing the game than any other stall.

Say you face a Death/Darkness opponent... what kind of CC are you going to be dealing with?  Parasites probably, or Plague, or maybe Drain Life.  If your opponent is Life/Light?  Any CC you face is going to be Thorn Carapace.  A fire deck?  Guardian Angel will STILL help you, since Fire Bolt and Rage Potion aren't the only CC options - a single Guardian Angel can help your whole field survive against a Fire Shield, which is a popular option in Fire stalls, come to think of it!  If you face an Air deck?  You've just slowed that Owl's Eye WAAAAY down, if not halted it completely.

As I've said before, the Guardian Angel can be useful in the right situation, but those situations are too uncommon for the Guardian Angel to be worth using. I see you've thought of lots of different cards that the Guardian Angel can help you against, but those cards just aren't as popular as cards that can kill creatures in one turn. And they aren't popular enough for the Guardian Angel to be worth using.

Guardian Angel is not a rush card, its use is in stall decks - both to stabilize an offense (necessarily slow in a stall), and to bolster your defense in some deck designs.  It should not be compared with other rush tactics.

Allright then, let's compare Guardian Angel to Sanctuary.
If you happen to have an Armagio in play and the opponent doesn't have enough damage to kill it in one turn, then the Guardian Angel can heal 5 health every turn for a cost of 3 quanta to play it and 1 quanta every turn, with a one turn delay.
Sanctuary can heal 4 damage every turn for a cost of 4 quanta and will also block the effects of Discord, Devourer, Black Hole, Nightmare, and Silence. There are also fewer cards that can destroy it.
Sanctuary is clearly the better choice.

[dragonsdemesne]

I think Archangel is just fine as is, but yeah, Guardian Angel is awfully pitiful, and it needs some kind of buff.  I can think of very few cards with such a -huge- difference between the quality of the unupped and upped versions as this pair.