Why is it... (Rules/card design mistakes)

[figmentofyourimagination]

Okay a couple of issues with wording/rules templating - And this is my first post, so this might be the wrong forum to post in.

Okay, first thing;
Why is that Graboid/Elite Graboid deals 2 damage on the field, when it clearly states that it is burrowed. And as we all know, burrowed creatures get their attack halved. Some would then argue, that the Graboid's attack is already halved on the screen - but that doesn't explain why, when you hover the mouse over it, it shows it to be a 2/3, unlike a burrowed Elite Antlion, which still shows it to be a 4/4 when you hover the mouse over it, even though it's burrowed and currently a 2/4?
(Also try having two Devourers/Pests out, bury one of them, play a Nightfall and burrow the second one - Weird...)

Secondly;
Immaterial/Quintessenced creatures. The ability says "can't be targeted", which makes it totally feasible that they become poisoned from Thorn Carapace or get damage from Fire Buckler, since those shields doesn't target them specifically. But in lieu with that wording of the ability, they should still get damage from Thunderbolt, Rain of Fire, Plague, Retrovirus, Unstable Gas and everything else that doesn't 'target', but rather affect globally. So then it should have a change in wording that has something like "can't recieve damage", but then the shields would stop working... Yes, it's a conundrum.

Thirdly;
The official rules to the game state that permanents are "Permanents are artifacts, equipment, or any other item that will remain in play for an indefinite amount of time." Well, indefinite here means: it can still be killed by Steal, Deflagration, Pulverizer.
With that in mind, one could argue that creature cards are permanent cards, as they also stay in play indefinitely or until they are killed, at least. So, perhaps a rephrasing of those words in the rules, even though I guess "item" can't be a creature...

And lastly;
Sun Dial states that creatures doesn't attack for a turn, and they don't. The weapon, if any is out, still does, as one would expect from the rules text on Sun Dial. Then, with Fog Shield/Improved Fog and Dusk Shield/Improved Dusk, it says: "Attacking creatures have a 40%/50% chance of missing you", - but that also applies to weapons all of a sudden...
So, wouldn't logic demand that the wording on the shields should be more like "Physical attacks have a nn% of missing you"?

Maybe this is nitpicking, but I just like some consistency.
Anyway, has any of this ever bothered anybody else?

[smuglapse]

Hi.

Okay a couple of issues with wording/rules templating - And this is my first post, so this might be the wrong forum to post in.

Well, there is this one thread that goes over a lot of the "undocumented features" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.0.html).  So you might want to check that out.

Okay, first thing;
Why is that Graboid/Elite Graboid deals 2 damage on the field, when it clearly states that it is burrowed. And as we all know, burrowed creatures get their attack halved. Some would then argue, that the Graboid's attack is already halved on the screen - but that doesn't explain why, when you hover the mouse over it, it shows it to be a 2/3, unlike a burrowed Elite Antlion, which still shows it to be a 4/4 when you hover the mouse over it, even though it's burrowed and currently a 2/4?
(Also try having two Devourers/Pests out, bury one of them, play a Nightfall and burrow the second one - Weird...)

When you hover over the creatures it does show current and full attack, and yeah the Graboid shows it is at its full attack when burrowed.  I would have to say that this is due to the designer considering that it would be always burrowed and so it doesn't matter, but... I've heard if you mutate a creature and it becomes a Graboid with burrow, then its attack does not change.  So, clearly this is a design mistake, but I don't think its a top priority for them at the moment.  And regarding Nightfall/Eclipse:  that damage is applied after anything else as a bonus.  So Devourer's 0 attack divided by 2 is still 0, plus 1 or 2 for Nightfall or Eclipse.

Secondly;
Immaterial/Quintessenced creatures. The ability says "can't be targeted", which makes it totally feasible that they become poisoned from Thorn Carapace or get damage from Fire Buckler, since those shields doesn't target them specifically. But in lieu with that wording of the ability, they should still get damage from Thunderbolt, Rain of Fire, Plague, Retrovirus, Unstable Gas and everything else that doesn't 'target', but rather affect globally. So then it should have a change in wording that has something like "can't recieve damage", but then the shields would stop working... Yes, it's a conundrum.

I think this was solved by saying that each creature is targeted individually, and I think that's how it is coded.  So, that Rain of Fire has an individual um.. brimstone? for each targeted creature and hits them one after the other.

Thirdly;
The official rules to the game state that permanents are "Permanents are artifacts, equipment, or any other item that will remain in play for an indefinite amount of time." Well, indefinite here means: it can still be killed by Steal, Deflagration, Pulverizer.
With that in mind, one could argue that creature cards are permanent cards, as they also stay in play indefinitely or until they are killed, at least. So, perhaps a rephrasing of those words in the rules, even though I guess "item" can't be a creature...

Definitely agree that Permanent is a bad word choice.  It has been around for a while though, so just imagine people are saying Artifact when they use the word Permanent.

And lastly;
Sun Dial states that creatures doesn't attack for a turn, and they don't. The weapon, if any is out, still does, as one would expect from the rules text on Sun Dial. Then, with Fog Shield/Improved Fog and Dusk Shield/Improved Dusk, it says: "Attacking creatures have a 40%/50% chance of missing you", - but that also applies to weapons all of a sudden...
So, wouldn't logic demand that the wording on the shields should be more like "Physical attacks have a nn% of missing you"?

Heh, someone just created a thread about that this week: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7834.0.html

Maybe this is nitpicking, but I just like some consistency.
Anyway, has any of this ever bothered anybody else?

Aye.  And I imagine it will be fixed eventually.  Each time there is a new card introduced people create pages and pages of semantics discussion.

[figmentofyourimagination]

Oh, and one thing I was also wondering about. Holy Light/Holy Flash can heal you for up to 10 HP, but also give up to 10 HP if the target is of the Death/Darkness type. But, when targetting a player with this mark, it STILL heals him. As we, the players, are elementals wouldn't one naturally assume that we are elementals of our chosen mark. So one day, I will stand all red and destructive in a aura of fire, having changed my elemental sign to Fire - I'm a Fire-elemental. The next day, I smell of rot and decay and my purple hue consumes everything in its path - I have changed my mark to Death, and I'm now a Death-elemental.
Doesn't that mean I should recieve damage when someone points a Holy Light/Holy Flash at me, as I am Death incarnate?
So how come that doesn't work...?

[Kael Hate]

Okay a couple of issues with wording/rules templating - And this is my first post, so this might be the wrong forum to post in.

Okay, first thing;
Why is that Graboid/Elite Graboid deals 2 damage on the field, when it clearly states that it is burrowed. And as we all know, burrowed creatures get their attack halved. Some would then argue, that the Graboid's attack is already halved on the screen - but that doesn't explain why, when you hover the mouse over it, it shows it to be a 2/3, unlike a burrowed Elite Antlion, which still shows it to be a 4/4 when you hover the mouse over it, even though it's burrowed and currently a 2/4?
(Also try having two Devourers/Pests out, bury one of them, play a Nightfall and burrow the second one - Weird...)

Its the act of becoming burrowed that halves your attack, its not while burrowed your attack is halved. Graboid actually goes up to 4 attack if you unburrow it. Graboid is a weird situation because it enters burrowed so never loses any attack from becoming burrowed.

Secondly;
Immaterial/Quintessenced creatures. The ability says "can't be targeted", which makes it totally feasible that they become poisoned from Thorn Carapace or get damage from Fire Buckler, since those shields doesn't target them specifically. But in lieu with that wording of the ability, they should still get damage from Thunderbolt, Rain of Fire, Plague, Retrovirus, Unstable Gas and everything else that doesn't 'target', but rather affect globally. So then it should have a change in wording that has something like "can't recieve damage", but then the shields would stop working... Yes, it's a conundrum.

There are no Gobal effects. All spells Target, Rain of Fire targets all opposing creatures. Its a game quirk, just try not to think like Magic the Gathering and you'll be fine.

Thirdly;
The official rules to the game state that permanents are "Permanents are artifacts, equipment, or any other item that will remain in play for an indefinite amount of time." Well, indefinite here means: it can still be killed by Steal, Deflagration, Pulverizer.
With that in mind, one could argue that creature cards are permanent cards, as they also stay in play indefinitely or until they are killed, at least. So, perhaps a rephrasing of those words in the rules, even though I guess "item" can't be a creature...

Yeah no. Permanents aren't Creatures. Permanents have the Relic Icon.
There is a Feed back for wordings tho if you think its confusing, its in the list somewhere.

And lastly;
Sun Dial states that creatures doesn't attack for a turn, and they don't. The weapon, if any is out, still does, as one would expect from the rules text on Sun Dial. Then, with Fog Shield/Improved Fog and Dusk Shield/Improved Dusk, it says: "Attacking creatures have a 40%/50% chance of missing you", - but that also applies to weapons all of a sudden...
So, wouldn't logic demand that the wording on the shields should be more like "Physical attacks have a nn% of missing you"?

This belongs in the Card text feedback. There are lots of cards that have issues between text and play. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4826.0.html

Maybe this is nitpicking, but I just like some consistency.
Anyway, has any of this ever bothered anybody else?

Yes. The rest of the game is good enough for me to get over the flaws.

[figmentofyourimagination]

Maybe this is nitpicking, but I just like some consistency.
Anyway, has any of this ever bothered anybody else?

Yes. The rest of the game is good enough for me to get over the flaws.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make the game bad, or stating that it's worse. And I wish I could think a little less like Magic: The Gathering, but I still need to become better at thinking that these are two different card games, rather than card games that share some similar traits. Anywho, i was more pointing it out, to find out if anybody else also find those things a little 'eerie', and to hear if there is an awareness about it, so that it might change.
And if it doesn't change, you're absolutely right, it's not like those minor things are going to keep me away from this awesome game. As you said, it's good enough to get over the flaws.
It's great, actually.
And I probably play it too much for my own good...

[Arctic_Panda]

I totally agree; there's a LOT of inconsistency. It makes the game very difficult to experiment with. This is a much more serious problem when the bazaar imposes a penalty on  trying out cards. Some examples:

* Graviton Fire Eater, Fire Spirit, and Forest Spirit have abilities to "gain +2/+2"; Gargoyle, "gain +0/+20". Other than differences in cost and numbers, these abilities are worded exactly the same, yet the ability of just one of these creatures has a one-use limit.

* A few cards use the text, "each 10 [type of quantum] quantums in your possession." When exactly this figure is checked, and the math altogether, is ambiguous. Currently, one can play the spell, watch their quanta level drop to "8", wait a second, and then, knowing that there are zero groups of size 10 in 8, choose a target and watch their card counter-intuitively hit twice.

* If a Fire Spirit can "gain +2/+2" multiple times, multiple copies of Nightfall should apply a "gain +1/+1" to my Vampire once per copy, right? Apparently, the real rules behind this card and Eclipse are sufficiently obfuscated that the wiki devotes a large paragraph explaining what happens when multiple instances are in play. At that point, the card's body text ought to simply read, "Consult Elementswiki.co.cc for details."

* Why does Boneyard not specify "non-Skeleton creature" or something?

* And many more...

I'm not saying the game should change to conform to the cards' texts; it's a very good thing my Gargoyle-Momentum combo failed for the sake of balance. What I'm saying is that the text reflect what the cards actually do. You know, like every other game in existence.

[Kael Hate]

I totally agree; there's a LOT of inconsistency. It makes the game very difficult to experiment with. This is a much more serious problem when the bazaar imposes a penalty on  trying out cards.

check out the trainer

www.elementsthegame.com/trainer.html

[Arctic_Panda]

I totally agree; there's a LOT of inconsistency. It makes the game very difficult to experiment with. This is a much more serious problem when the bazaar imposes a penalty on  trying out cards.

check out the trainer

www.elementsthegame.com/trainer.html

Wow, thanks! That certainly helps a lot.

(Not that I'm about to forgive the developers because if it.)

[PuppyChow]

I totally agree; there's a LOT of inconsistency. It makes the game very difficult to experiment with. This is a much more serious problem when the bazaar imposes a penalty on  trying out cards.

check out the trainer

www.elementsthegame.com/trainer.html (http://www.elementsthegame.com/trainer.html)

Wow, thanks! That certainly helps a lot.

(Not that I'm about to forgive the developers because if it.)

Developer. One developer.

* If a Fire Spirit can "gain +2/+2" multiple times, multiple copies of Nightfall should apply a "gain +1/+1" to my Vampire once per copy, right? Apparently, the real rules behind this card and Eclipse are sufficiently obfuscated that the wiki devotes a large paragraph explaining what happens when multiple instances are in play. At that point, the card's body text ought to simply read, "Consult Elementswiki.co.cc for details."

Nightfall and eclipse aren't supposed to stack. Maybe it could specify that on the card, but the whole nightfall adding on to eclipse or whatever is a bug that hasn't been fixed yet. Not a mechanic.

* A few cards use the text, "each 10 [type of quantum] quantums in your possession." When exactly this figure is checked, and the math altogether, is ambiguous. Currently, one can play the spell, watch their quanta level drop to "8", wait a second, and then, knowing that there are zero groups of size 10 in 8, choose a target and watch their card counter-intuitively hit twice.

The fire bolt, ice bolt, and drain life uses your quanta before casting it. The only card that uses the quanta after casting it is stone skin.

Also, all three of those always do at least 3 damage so the equation is basically damage = quanta/10 (rounded down)*3 + 3.

EDIT: For drain life/ice bolt, it is quanta/10 (rounded down)*2 + 2.

[Kael Hate]

* A few cards use the text, "each 10 [type of quantum] quantums in your possession." When exactly this figure is checked, and the math altogether, is ambiguous. Currently, one can play the spell, watch their quanta level drop to "8", wait a second, and then, knowing that there are zero groups of size 10 in 8, choose a target and watch their card counter-intuitively hit twice.

The fire bolt, ice bolt, and drain life uses your quanta before casting it. The only card that uses the quanta after casting it is stone skin.

Also, all three of those always do at least 3 damage so the equation is basically damage = quanta/10 (rounded down)*3 + 3.

Ice bolt and drain life use divisions of 2.