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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353121#msg353121
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2011, 10:06:13 am »
Well, buck..

Turning aside from the tone of your comment, I'll try to explain the reasonings behind the 'flaws' you listed.

As a spirited chess player myself too, I realize that you can't make nice conversion of the game to be completely satisfactory for everyone, especially for hard-headed 'chess veterans'. Even if you make a small, irrelevant change in the rules, it's not Chess. But, if you want to play Chess, there are plenty of opportunities for that over the internet, or amongst your real-live friends - which is kinda more preferable in my opinion.

This is only a board game made for the Elements forum, which has resemblances of the game Chess, though, and also borrowed a few - if not most of the - rules from it; but despite the name, it's not Chess.

First, I'd like to point out, these 'flaws' you mentioned has already been discussed and tested over and over, but let me answer them point by point.

Based on the layout of the board, the first move of player one is to move a pawn one space ahead to allow their bishop access to an hourglass on the next turn.
Player two does the same thing. 
Player ones next move is to take the hourglass with their bishop.
Player two takes an hourglass with their bishop.
Player one then gets two actions.  First action, they move the other pawn that is blocking the bishop from the other hourglass.  Second action, they take the hourglass.
Player two does the same thing on their side of the board.
Player one now gets 3 actions.  They move all 3 pawns in the middle up 2 spaces each.  Player two does the same. 
Player one then moves the very middle pawn up one space to take the hour glass, and will be in combat against player two on player twos turn.
The battle for the middle spot for the third hour glass will be taking up most of the time now.

Ok, aside from the pawn part, which is the most logical thing to do though, the opening for each game could be what I just describe, mainly because bishops are solely on light squares...
This opening you described is one of the most obvious ones, and believe me, there are plenty of others that are viable (or even more so) besides this. Explore.

Bishops: The reason behind the many times brought up "bishops are only on light squares" thing, is their mobility. Their purpose to easily capture (enemy) hourglasses was intended. As you can see, the Rook is no longer capable of sailing through the board, thus, the Queen has been taken out of the starting pieces (reason explained in one of the previous posts), so the bishops became your most agile pieces. There are other pieces you can also use to give a checkmate, and don't forget that your bishops, though can't move on dark squares (with the exception of a pawn promotion), they can cover a very wide range of the light ones, easily blocking the path of the opponent's King.

The other problem that happens when you have 2 bishops that occupy the same colour squares is that your opponent will never be threatened by them, as it is fairly easy to stay on the dark squares.  In regular chess, you would end up stale mating if you had 2 bishops left and your king and your opponent only had his king.  He would stay on the dark squares and would never get checked. 
In this case, it's a clear loss for the player who has nothing else than his king. He could run around on the dark squares forever, but he won't accomplish anything with that. It's a different case if he has the chance to promote a pawn, of course, but people most often than not surrender at this point.

Also, if you start off as white, and the board remains as it is, you will have a clear advantage.  If you get 2 hourglasses first, you get 3 actions on your next turn.  Now for any average chess player, seeing 2-3 moves ahead is hard enough, but now you have to contend with your opponent taking 3 actions in one turn.  So this is another good reason to reduce the amount of hourglasses.  But also relocating them so they aren't taken over in the 2nd and 3rd turns.
And at least if they are reduced and moved to only row 5, if the bishops remain only on light squares, and that should be changed, the ends of row 5 have the hourglasses which will still be taken in 2 turns, but at least theres a chance they won't. 
It's a common thought in classic chess too, that the white player always has an advantage. It's no different here. Really.

Hourglasses: Because even with the current setup, a match can take a quite lot of time if not played all at once, these things were meant to hasten up the process right from the start. Also, as it was pointed out earlier, (1) you can't move a single piece more than once per turn, (2) it's not always an advantage having 3-4 or more moves per turn, that you have all to make. But players will realize this soon enough.

Also, don't forget, that attacking doesn't mean an auto capture !!! If you're lucky enough (and with a bit of good deckbuilding), you can wreak havoc in the opposing lines with a single pawn. Just keep in mind that a Knight can be as easily humiliated as a Pawn here. Ranked pieces have only movement and (small) deckbuilding advantages here.

As of right now, you'd be better off doing an elements checkers event, because this is hardly chess at all.  The elements portion is still elements, so the chess portion should still be chess, but it isn't.  Adding the hourglasses is fine, but how about using a real chess setup instead or the diana chess setup which is this

games would be considerably faster with a smaller board too
Well, you really don't have to play in the event if you don't want to. As I already said, there's a lot of nice classic chess games out there, and this one is ain't one of them.

The board stays. It's not as shiny as I wanted to be but it serves it's purpose. Also, it has been tested and approved.

-- There will be also an update in the rules too, because it's missing a few small things, still.
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Offline bucky1andonly

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353131#msg353131
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2011, 10:40:50 am »
That really explains nothing, you just repeated what was already said.  I've read through it all.  Seriously, why use chess pieces without allowing for actual chess strategies.  You're allowing en passants and castling.

Quote
This is only a board game made for the Elements forum, which has resemblances of the game Chess, though, and also borrowed a few - if not most of the - rules from it; but despite the name, it's not Chess.
really?  Even with the special moves, this is not chess?

The hourglass set up is flawed.  So they are meant to speed up the game, yet using them might not be so advantageous??  Well here, maybe a picture will help you realize that what I suggested for the hourglasses will speed up the game, since this is not chess and all, it is all about getting into duels, then this setup offers the best way to get that all started as soon as possible.


notice how the middle pawns, would be white obviously that gets to take it first if they want, but then there are 2 black pawns that can fight for it, and then there are 2 white pawns that counter attack after.  then you have the knights which can go either to the center to that area of fighting, or to where both the white bishops and black bishops are fighting over the other hourglasses.  This causes more duels, and with the person controlling the hourglasses after, they can move more of their pieces closer sooner to help defend.  The king is in no way of being in any danger for quite a while unless someone purposely leaves him open, so most battles will take place around the 3 hourglasses.  Your way has it so both white and black each get to own 2 hourglasses right away without having to defend them.   Your way just promotes avoiding fights early on, and since this is not chess, you do want players to fight as much as possible, you know, since its not chess.

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353134#msg353134
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2011, 10:48:10 am »
That really explains nothing, you just repeated what was already said.  I've read through it all.  Seriously, why use chess pieces without allowing for actual chess strategies.  You're allowing en passants and castling.

Quote
This is only a board game made for the Elements forum, which has resemblances of the game Chess, though, and also borrowed a few - if not most of the - rules from it; but despite the name, it's not Chess.
really?  Even with the special moves, this is not chess?

The hourglass set up is flawed.  So they are meant to speed up the game, yet using them might not be so advantageous??  Well here, maybe a picture will help you realize that what I suggested for the hourglasses will speed up the game, since this is not chess and all, it is all about getting into duels, then this setup offers the best way to get that all started as soon as possible.


notice how the middle pawns, would be white obviously that gets to take it first if they want, but then there are 2 black pawns that can fight for it, and then there are 2 white pawns that counter attack after.  then you have the knights which can go either to the center to that area of fighting, or to where both the white bishops and black bishops are fighting over the other hourglasses.  This causes more duels, and with the person controlling the hourglasses after, they can move more of their pieces closer sooner to help defend.  The king is in no way of being in any danger for quite a while unless someone purposely leaves him open, so most battles will take place around the 3 hourglasses.  Your way has it so both white and black each get to own 2 hourglasses right away without having to defend them.   Your way just promotes avoiding fights early on, and since this is not chess, you do want players to fight as much as possible, you know, since its not chess.

Snarky remarks and flaming aside, I find myself agreeing here. Faster battles for the hourglasses is nice.
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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353159#msg353159
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2011, 12:53:35 pm »
Ok.

First of all, get a hold on your manners: no need to be a smartass, or to get personal, as I won't tolerate either. So keep things that way.

As for your colorful idea, with presentation: Wouldn't this cause even more linear strategies/startups? I mean, sure, the battles start sooner, but there's no real other and better option, than to make two 'godly' pawn decks, jump out with the D2 or with the F2 pawn to grab the middle - so your bishops are free to go for the the other 2 hourglasses. Personally, I'd like to see various strategies developed by players, not just some 'mindless' rushes for starters, mostly based on luck or unluck. This way, if you screw your start and the opponent takes away the HGs, then it's gg. You'll have a chance close to zero to turn back the game again (and that too solely based on 'lucky' duels).
Also, the moves you highlighted can all be performed on the original board, with only a twist in which HGs are aimed at.
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Offline bucky1andonly

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353212#msg353212
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2011, 04:11:59 pm »
Quote
First of all, get a hold on your manners: no need to be a smartass, or to get personal, as I won't tolerate either. So keep things that way.
LOL

Quote
Wouldn't this cause even more linear strategies/startups?
No, it is pretty much just the same, except with your setup games will be longer.  Having fewer hourglasses forces the players to secure them from each other sooner.

Quote
but there's no real other and better option, than to make two 'godly' pawn decks, jump out with the D2 or with the F2 pawn to grab the middle
Again, it is the exact same thing with your setup, but instead of having the players fight over the same hourglasses, with your setup, you are giving each player 2 free hourglasses right away.  So if they don't decide to start attacking each other right away and would rather setup, games will just go longer than needed.

Quote
Personally, I'd like to see various strategies developed by players, not just some 'mindless' rushes for starters, mostly based on luck or unluck.
With my setup, this will happen.  Good chess players might think twice before taking one of the hourglasses and getting into a fight within the first few turns, but also at the same time trying to end the game fast.  Amateur chess players will rush in to steal the hourglasses away from their opponent.  But with your setup, if each player can get 2 free ones right away, both the pro and amateur will surely take them without objection.  Less strategic don't you think?

Quote
Also, the moves you highlighted can all be performed on the original board, with only a twist in which HGs are aimed at.
What twist?  Your setup makes games longer.  You were supposed to find a way to make this run faster overall weren't you, and I just provided you with the means to do so, while more than thoroughly explaining why.

Also, since all 4 bishops are on light squares, overall there are fewer available strategies.  So if you truly are concerned about strategies, than perhaps you should swap the knight and bishop around on the right hand side.  There is a very very good reason for doing this as well.  The king starts on a light square, so moving either the d2 or f2 pawn leaves your king open for a check within the first 3 turns.

For more strategies
1) Fewer hourglasses, forces players to work out ways to retrieve them with fewest losses
2) Swapping the knight and bishop on the right side around.  2 light bishops presents fewer options.



Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353222#msg353222
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2011, 04:29:12 pm »
A question: why can't I just take up the hourglasses with pawns in turn 1? You say we can move diagonally to hourglasses too, so...
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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353267#msg353267
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2011, 05:24:35 pm »
This way, if you screw your start and the opponent takes away the HGs, then it's gg. You'll have a chance close to zero to turn back the game again (and that too solely based on 'lucky' duels).
You missed a sentence.
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It is here that strange compromises are made and new senses are born."

Offline bucky1andonly

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg353277#msg353277
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2011, 05:38:44 pm »
I didn't miss it, I excluded it on purpose, because that happens in chess, and a good player can still come back from losing pieces.  If you screw up your start then you're probably a lousy chess player, and this event might not be for you, but if you are a decent chess player, even screwing up in the start might not lead to you losing.  But if you screw up in the start, then ya, you will be at a disadvantage, BUT IT WAS YOUR FAULT TO BEGIN WITH!!!

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg354695#msg354695
« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2011, 10:09:37 pm »
first of all bucky: i love ur forum picutre  :)) its hilarious
2: ive read it through twice still kind of confused  :-\ 1 1 quick question and yes im a 'veteran' at chess  but, whats the diffrence between the peices movement in chess and this?
3: any idea AT all when this is gonna start as most likely this is gonna be first come first server, and theres only 16 ppl and judging by the posts/veiws theres alot of ppl eager to get in on ths   ::)

spelling fail  :P    *1: *picture, anyway GREAT idea ! im planning on re-writing mine so tstar dont go through it please  :-X

may look like im trying to spam comments but im not  :-X
i just thought over it over night, i dont rlly get teeh deck building for pawns, exmample, if i get rid of the 7 and im left with  :death :darkness :air :light :time and i dont rlly want to use  :air :darkness
 can all my pawns consist of   :light :time :death just diffrent based deck?
next one is, there isnt much strategy based in this as ik u want it to be go,gi battle but in chess, knights,rooks etc have the advantage  because of their moving capababilities but, lets say im playing the elements chess, and my rook attacks a pawn from a far distance, theres still not much advantage as the pawn can beat my rook, i just depeneds on the deck    :(

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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg355097#msg355097
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2011, 09:28:56 pm »
The strategy in the went is partly due to deckbuilding.
Even though a pawn can kill a rook that attacked it, there is still strategy based on peice movements. It's a little different from chess, but I think this way will be fun.

Also, try to use the edit button instead of posting multiple posts in a row.
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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg356258#msg356258
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2011, 12:23:39 am »
i have a few questions...

1. I know tons of people have asked already, but when will this start?  I want to make sure i will get be one of the 16 allowed to play, and I need to know how long i have to make decks.

2. Will there be a time limit?

3. Are upgrades allowed?
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Re: Elements Chess - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24443.msg356356#msg356356
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2011, 07:07:57 am »
1.

Are you ready to go live with this event or is there more testing that needs to be completed first?  I'd like to get it started within the next 5-10 days if possible.
We are still in the process of finalizing the rules, it will be ready tomorrow at latest. After that, it's up to TStar - I believe quite soon.

2. What do you mean by time limit? Players will have 1 week to build their decks and then 1 week to  finish each chess game. There will be 4 rounds, so all in all, the event will take 5 weeks to finish.

3. Only if you promote a pawn, in which case you can use deck size/10 number of upgrades.


 

blarg: