*Author

Offline GlitchTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3730
  • Reputation Power: 65
  • Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Awards: 1st Trials - Master of LifeElements Short Story Competition WinnerPoetry in the Spirit of Elements
Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg143302#msg143302
« on: August 21, 2010, 01:04:00 pm »
False gods are one of the most discussed things on the forum.  Are they too strong?  Are they too weak?  How do you farm them better?  How do you counter them when the Oracle does you a favor?  A lot of the time, people want the false gods nerfed.  I've seen threads asking for dark matter to be nerfed.  The new pufferfish buff makes scorpio harder, and a lot of threads think scorpio is too difficult now.  If you look at the new FG proposals, none of them are conventional 30 card decks, they're all designed as beatable decks.  Nothing that would succeed in PVP.  When there was a contest to design FGs, several decks got critiqued as too hard.   I even saw one humorous post that claimed it was physically impossible to beat rainbow.

Clearly, people want a weaker high-level AI to fight against.

Surprisingly enough, the AI5 are one of the least discussed things on the forum.  They're too weak, too slow to farm, and don't grant enough of a reward to even be bothered with.  If you remember, the AI5 were introduced so players would have a weaker-high level AI to fight against.  They were designed as a transitionary enemy so you could jump between farming AI3 and the gods more smoothly.  This did not turn out to be the case.

Clearly, people want a stronger mid-level AI to fight against.

To complicate matters more, the concept of AI7 has been introduced, and I think a lot of people like the concept.  The false gods have gotten extremely stale and they act like a plateau in the games difficulty curve.  Instead of people climbing our metaphorical difficulty mountain, and bragging about how high of AI they can beat, they instead all reach the top of the AI6 and stand on their rhetorical tippy-toes, bragging how their farm deck has a 2% higher win rate.  The concept of a impossible to farm AI7 is an AI that would be rewarding when beat.  And I don't mean rewarding in game.  It would honestly be something to do that would make you proud of your deck, as opposed to the current system, where the pinnacle of gaming is making a deck that is a hundredth of a turn faster and debating whether it's better to take RoL or spark in a cremate deck.

Clearly, people want a strong high-level AI to fight against

So to summarize:
AI5 need to be stronger.  It's too weak to bother farming.
AI6 need to be weaker.  It's too difficult to farm.
AI7 need to be implemented.  Farming is boring.

And this is when I get confused.

Maybe I didn't get the memo, but is it really so radical to think AI6 aren't supposed to be farmed?  People ask for a super difficult enemy when they already have one!  They want unfarmable boss battles, but that's exactly what AI6 are designed like!  It's a hidden fight you can't attempt without lots of hard work.  It's high risk, and you probably won't win, but if you do it's worth it.  Sounds like a boss fight to me.

Meanwhile, it seems to me the AI5 should be exactly what the AI6 are now.  Farmable upgraded decks.

So here's what I propose:
~Get rid of the current AI5 decks.  The whole 144 deck system, with every possible mono/duo combination, just isn't working.  You can't just take two halves of a successful deck and cram them together, expecting the deck to function.  And even if it were working, the decks don't matter.  They simply aren't played against, and in most cases, they're skipped over all together.
~Move the easier AI6 decks to AI5.  Come on, you know which ones I'm talking about.  Miracle and Paradox are the best examples of false gods that get overly abused.  And morte?  Who thought light went well with death anyway?
~Replace the easier AI6 decks with harder versions of themselves.  Make miracle a light+earth deck out deck with time mark, eternities, and shriekers.  Make morte a death/air wings deck with flying EEs and vultures.  Add a fire stall FG.  Or do something completely different, just make them harder.  This is going to sound really radical, but what if we made every false god as difficult as dark matter on purpose?
~Increase the rewards from AI5 to slightly less than the AI6 reward is now.  This step is kind of a side note, everyone farms the AI for cards anyway, so if the AI5 get buffed to be like the worse false gods, then the amount of cards won will double and it'll be worth farming again.
~Increase the reward for beating the AI6.  A gravity nymph is a fair reward for beating dark matter.  Or even if the change isn't that drastic, maybe increase the spins to five?  Something.

If we implement those changes, two very important things will happen that everyone will like.  Farming will get easier.  Auto-quits will be a thing of the past.  Noobs can go pro with relative ease.  Meanwhile, Pros who have 6 of every card can spend their time developing anti-AI6 decks, which will have to be the most elite decks ever made.  Most importantly, no new AI level needs to be added.  No new button needs to be crammed into the game menu, and instead of adding new content (difficult to do), zanz can just fix whats already there (relatively easier, and better for the game).

Right now, people who farm AI3 don't know upgraded cards exist.  People who can upgrade cards farm gods, and don't remember AI3 exist (and don't care).  People who are good enough to take on a higher challenges don't know what exists and what doesn't (they just live their lives babbling about whether you should take 3 hopes or 4, rocking slowly back and forth in the corner).  And maybe that's the way the game is supposed to be.  I don't know.  But on the keep-things-the-same to change-things-for-better-or-for-worse spectrum, I'll always lean towards the change side of things.  And as long as this problem is around, I'll keep stoning birds.

This just seems like a method that wastes less stones.  It should - at least - be considered.

Offline Marvaddin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1048
  • Country: br
  • Reputation Power: 13
  • Marvaddin is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Marvaddin is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • War to the Fake Gods!
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg143486#msg143486
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 06:25:15 pm »
I also think people are crazy about those "defeat all FG twice in a row to get a battle vs a super AI7 that has 500 life and a preset hand with 2xRoL, 2xCremation and 3x Lava Destroyer". FG are already hard enough. Best decks made using all needed upped cards cant defeat them more than something like 55%. And this because there are those weak FG among them. Remove Miracle, Paradox and Destiny, and all decks winning % will drop.

I think:

HB. I really like the way their decks are constructed. Its more interesting than have some presets. They really are a step between AI3 and FG. They can be easy, sometimes they are hard... everything is ok... except the rewards. If you grind AI3, each fight lasts for 1 min, and you will get more money (and cards to sell =  money). If you grind Top50, you will get more score and get some rares, also possible to defeat with rush decks most times. So, why to fight an AI5, that will force you to spend more time each battle, putting some defense in your deck, because they have 200 life, if your gains are lower? Increasing rewards would do the trick. Maybe reduce their life to 150.

FG. U want them harder on purpose? Not farmable? Whats the point having them? If you remove the easier ones, and redo the decks to make them harder, so the winning % of best decks drop to, lets say, 10%, whos going to play? Unless, of course, we get better rewards... a nymph for defeating Dark Matter? Wow, great. I could wait for the Oracle give me the tip, or could create a anti Dark Matter deck and skip all fights that arent against him if I really need the nymph. With the actual spins, no one would play them.

Very important: people dislike losing. Not needed to create super hard not farmable AI level. People would get enough frustration and wouldnt play. Keep things at a level where rewards are according to the challenge. Thats all. So I think: HB are fine, just the reward does not compensate the effort; FG should be farmable, but of course not easy. They are already not easy, and I feel they are getting harder. Zanz is always nerfing our cards, and new FG are usually difficult, so I would really like some of the new FG could take it easy, not like Miracle, but lets say, like Chaos Lord or Gemini, so the winning rate wouldnt drop more.

My 0.02.

Edit: just to ilustrate, last FG added:
Decay is a medium to hard FG.
Dream Catcher is difficult.
Eternal Phoenix is insanely difficult.
Neptune is the single one that is easy using rainbow, but its hard if you use RoL Hope.
Osiris was easy, but now that he has momentum, and use the Eternity to delay deck out, and eat his own scarabs, hes difficult.
Octane is very difficult if you use rainbow, impossible to RoL Hope.

So, as new FG are launched, things get harder. I would approve some easier to defeat FG.

smuglapse

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg143591#msg143591
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 09:29:52 pm »
There are 2 main things I like to do in this game: test mechanics/bugs/weird things and fight FGs.  I have played AI5 maybe 10 times.

I think FGs should get harder, but guess what--they are getting harder.  Balancing cards and improving AI, while slow, is effectively making the FGs harder, and I think it's fun.  So I'm happy with the way things are headed.

As far as easy gods vs hard gods, that really depends on your deck.  Destiny is extremely easy for a Fractal/Hope and rainbow, but rush decks get walloped by the Rewinds.  I know the vast majority of people don't use rush decks but I think it's good to have one hard counter.  I use Fractal/Hope and I think Octane may be mathematically impossible, but I don't complain, I just skip it.

What I would like to see is for each of the FGs to have their own independent AI--that way they would each understand their deck and know when to look for combos and maybe wait for another card to be drawn.

Xelax

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg143598#msg143598
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 09:40:56 pm »
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but surely as soon as the new AI7 are documented there will be people who go for an all round deck that beats them all. And if no such deck exists, who would play an AI with a deck that can only win against 1 of however many there are, and only about 2% of the time?

I imagine that the AI6 were exactly what you describe you wanted when they first came out. But they plateau'd, as you said. And I imagine exactly the same thing would happen with a harder boss.

guolin

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg143608#msg143608
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 09:57:33 pm »
I like the basic concept of this post, but I do believe some details can be tweaked.

AI5->Easy FG decks is a change I welcome with open hands. There used to be a time I grinded AI5, and I hated it. When I switched to grinding AI3, my electrum and score income both soared. AI5 are just icky to me the way it is now.

Splitting AI6 into "Realms" like SG suggested would help against auto-quits and FG-killers that have a good chance against all FG's.

Kurohami

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150429#msg150429
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 11:26:26 pm »
Who said "top50 is too weak to bother farming"? People don't farm it that much(unless for rare) because it's harder than AI3 and it yields less reward than AI6. You can't hope to beat it efficiently all the time even with a good deck.

Offline GlitchTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3730
  • Reputation Power: 65
  • Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Awards: 1st Trials - Master of LifeElements Short Story Competition WinnerPoetry in the Spirit of Elements
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150441#msg150441
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 11:35:01 pm »
Who said "top50 is too weak to bother farming"? People don't farm it that much(unless for rare) because it's harder than AI3 and it yields less reward than AI6. You can't hope to beat it efficiently all the time even with a good deck.
No one did, we're discussing half bloods here ;D

Kurohami

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150452#msg150452
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 11:50:21 pm »
Oh, I got the statement from your open post.
Quote
So to summarize:
AI5 need to be stronger.  It's too weak to bother farming.
AI6 need to be weaker.  It's too difficult to farm.
AI7 need to be implemented.  Farming is boring.

Offline GlitchTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3730
  • Reputation Power: 65
  • Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Awards: 1st Trials - Master of LifeElements Short Story Competition WinnerPoetry in the Spirit of Elements
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150464#msg150464
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 12:07:50 am »
Oh, I got the statement from your open post.
Quote
So to summarize:
AI5 need to be stronger.  It's too weak to bother farming.
AI6 need to be weaker.  It's too difficult to farm.
AI7 need to be implemented.  Farming is boring.
AI5 = halfbloods

The T50 are AI4.

Ifailgood

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150466#msg150466
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 12:11:04 am »
But how are we suppose to make an AI 7? What more advantages can we give it?

6x Mark? 4 cards drawn per turn? A special rare card that only the god has?

Kurohami

  • Guest
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150470#msg150470
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 12:12:12 am »
Oh, I got the statement from your open post.
Quote
So to summarize:
AI5 need to be stronger.  It's too weak to bother farming.
AI6 need to be weaker.  It's too difficult to farm.
AI7 need to be implemented.  Farming is boring.
AI5 = halfbloods

The T50 are AI4.
Oops, the 5 threw me off xD.

Offline RavingRabbid

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5044
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 85
  • RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Lord Seagull
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeDeckbuilding Competition: The Face of Mother NatureSlice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake7th Trials - Master of WaterWinner of Warrior's Preparation - PvP Event14 Club - Most Expensive Players during War AuctionWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeTeam PVP #1 Winner5th Trials - Master of Water3rd Trials - Master of WaterChampionship League 3/2011 WinnerWinner of 2nd Off-Topic Quiz LeagueWinner of 2nd Element Quiz LeagueWinner of 1st Off-Topic Quiz LeagueWinner of 1st Element Quiz LeagueChampionship League 2/2011 WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake3-Man Team PvP #1 Winner
Re: Three birds, two stones https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11658.msg150838#msg150838
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 05:51:22 pm »
Actually, making 24 AI5 that are weaker versions of the 24 AI6 looks a good idea, and improving the weaker AI6 would result in the "AI7".

They're Halfbloods.


List of Halfbloods:

Luck = The old Destiny.
Zeno = The old Paradox, which has a better name.
Empatia = An easier version of Ferox
Prayer = An easier version of Miracle

And things like that...
There are things worse than eating tuna directly from the tin

 

blarg: