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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310446#msg310446
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2011, 01:54:41 pm »
And btw, I agree with everything in the video. I don't know how you can find statements #2 and #3 above "unjustified"; the whole video was justification for those conclusions.
My 2nd criticism of 2 was that "We can invest in things we can never know. But to do that is nonsensical" makes a normative statement about a descriptive option which would require a normative system to make that judgement. Morality is the subject that best fits the category "things we can never know". Hence it invests in something it cannot know to refute investing in something it cannot know. (This criticism assumes the author cannot know the answer to the important question "What ought one do?")
There will always be certain moral dilemmas without a clear right or wrong solution, but I think there is enough that virtually everyone can agree on that I would not group the whole subject of morality into "things we can never know." That murder is wrong is about as clear as the sky being blue, for example. Making Pascal's wager also seems pretty clearly absurd to me -- not based on any system of morality but based on rationality.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310454#msg310454
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2011, 02:13:03 pm »
And btw, I agree with everything in the video. I don't know how you can find statements #2 and #3 above "unjustified"; the whole video was justification for those conclusions.
My 2nd criticism of 2 was that "We can invest in things we can never know. But to do that is nonsensical" makes a normative statement about a descriptive option which would require a normative system to make that judgement. Morality is the subject that best fits the category "things we can never know". Hence it invests in something it cannot know to refute investing in something it cannot know. (This criticism assumes the author cannot know the answer to the important question "What ought one do?")
There will always be certain moral dilemmas without a clear right or wrong solution, but I think there is enough that virtually everyone can agree on that I would not group the whole subject of morality into "things we can never know." That murder is wrong is about as clear as the sky being blue, for example. Making Pascal's wager also seems pretty clearly absurd to me -- not based on any system of morality but based on rationality.
All normative objects have 2 definitions:
A normative definition describing the moral character and a descriptive definition describing what the object is.
Murder is commonly defined by a universally accepted normative definition: "Wrongful killing."
However Murder does not have a universally accepted descriptive definition. Usually it revolves around unresolved questions like: "What can be wrongfully killed?" "What factors can justify killing?" ...
Murder, the most important aspect (from past humans' points of view) of the important question, has not yet be rescued from "things we do not know" why would you claim that morality as a whole is not still inside that category?
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310464#msg310464
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2011, 02:38:22 pm »
Murder, the most important aspect (from past humans' points of view) of the important question, has not yet be rescued from "things we do not know" why would you claim that morality as a whole is not still inside that category?
Because my point was that we know certain general things, even if we don't know all of the specifics. It's not unknowable in the same way that the existence of evil gods, dreaming aliens, or virtual reality programs is.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310534#msg310534
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2011, 05:50:16 pm »
Murder, the most important aspect (from past humans' points of view) of the important question, has not yet be rescued from "things we do not know" why would you claim that morality as a whole is not still inside that category?
Because my point was that we know certain general things, even if we don't know all of the specifics. It's not unknowable in the same way that the existence of evil gods, dreaming aliens, or virtual reality programs is.
Really so a man made term defined half way with the pursuit of the answer to the other half left in reality is not an accurate description of the man made term God?

[sarcasm]
Wow it becomes so clear, all the religions professing answers to the question "What is the nature of God?" and all the philosophers professing answers to the question "What is murder?" are nothing alike. Why Atheists are not paralleled by the Antirealists are they?
[/sarcasm]

As a philosopher specialized in Ethics (Meta, Normative and Applied) I can inform you point blank that even Murder is as obscure as God.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310537#msg310537
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2011, 06:02:50 pm »
As a philosopher specialized in Ethics (Meta, Normative and Applied) I can inform you point blank that even Murder is as obscure as God.
Alright, while I disagree with you, I can see how you could find ambiguity in the definition of murder. Yes, some exists. But there are clear cases of murder that everyone can agree are wrong. Rape may be a better example, although I'm fully aware that in some situations ambiguity can be thrown in (what exactly constitutes consent?). Still, I will not back off from my previous point at all: a lot about morality is knowable. I would even argue that the most important parts are known by most people and that most evil occurs when a person chooses to be immoral -- not out of ignorance. I would think that someone devoted to the study of morality would be at a loss if they really found it to be obscure like that.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310543#msg310543
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2011, 06:13:39 pm »
As a philosopher specialized in Ethics (Meta, Normative and Applied) I can inform you point blank that even Murder is as obscure as God.
Alright, while I disagree with you, I can see how you could find ambiguity in the definition of murder. Yes, some exists. But there are clear cases of murder that everyone can agree are wrong. Rape may be a better example, although I'm fully aware that in some situations ambiguity can be thrown in (what exactly constitutes consent?). Still, I will not back off from my previous point at all: a lot about morality is knowable. I would even argue that the most important parts are known by most people and that most evil occurs when a person chooses to be immoral -- not out of ignorance. I would think that someone devoted to the study of morality would be at a loss if they really found it to be obscure like that.
Sorry to spoil your dream. Not all philosophies believe immorality exists (See Antirealist). Of those that do believe immorality exists not all of them agree that rape is wrong (I personally find those philosophies disgusting but disgust does not invalidate those philosophies. Some of those philosophies like Act Utilitarianism are even widely used although probably would be abandoned in cases where it contradicts intuition.)
Did you know most genociders believe they are doing the right thing? What you believe is evil occurs and people rarely(almost never when compared to their honest beliefs) do what they believe to be evil.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310548#msg310548
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2011, 06:16:59 pm »
As a philosopher specialized in Ethics (Meta, Normative and Applied) I can inform you point blank that even Murder is as obscure as God.
Alright, while I disagree with you, I can see how you could find ambiguity in the definition of murder. Yes, some exists. But there are clear cases of murder that everyone can agree are wrong. Rape may be a better example, although I'm fully aware that in some situations ambiguity can be thrown in (what exactly constitutes consent?). Still, I will not back off from my previous point at all: a lot about morality is knowable. I would even argue that the most important parts are known by most people and that most evil occurs when a person chooses to be immoral -- not out of ignorance. I would think that someone devoted to the study of morality would be at a loss if they really found it to be obscure like that.
Sorry to spoil your dream. Not all philosophies believe immorality exists (See Antirealist). Of those that do believe immorality exists not all of them agree that rape is wrong (I personally find those philosophies disgusting but disgust does not invalidate those philosophies.)

Did you know most genociders believe they are doing the right thing? What you believe is evil occurs and people rarely(almost never when compared to their honest beliefs) do what they believe to be evil.
I've said that virtually everyone can agree on such things (edit: earlier, I did say "everyone" as well but "virtually everyone" was intended, just like when I say I know something I don't mean with 100% certainty). Even if they don't all agree, it's something I feel I know as sure as I know I'm sitting in a chair right now. Just because a few people deny something doesn't mean we can't accept it as true. I think people do what they know is evil all the time, even if they may rationalize it as well as they can. I think you are naive if you think people rarely do what they believe to be evil. "Sorry to spoil your dream." :P

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310552#msg310552
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2011, 06:26:40 pm »
As a philosopher specialized in Ethics (Meta, Normative and Applied) I can inform you point blank that even Murder is as obscure as God.
Alright, while I disagree with you, I can see how you could find ambiguity in the definition of murder. Yes, some exists. But there are clear cases of murder that everyone can agree are wrong. Rape may be a better example, although I'm fully aware that in some situations ambiguity can be thrown in (what exactly constitutes consent?). Still, I will not back off from my previous point at all: a lot about morality is knowable. I would even argue that the most important parts are known by most people and that most evil occurs when a person chooses to be immoral -- not out of ignorance. I would think that someone devoted to the study of morality would be at a loss if they really found it to be obscure like that.
Sorry to spoil your dream. Not all philosophies believe immorality exists (See Antirealist). Of those that do believe immorality exists not all of them agree that rape is wrong (I personally find those philosophies disgusting but disgust does not invalidate those philosophies.)

Did you know most genociders believe they are doing the right thing? What you believe is evil occurs and people rarely(almost never when compared to their honest beliefs) do what they believe to be evil.
I've said that virtually everyone can agree on such things. Even if they don't all agree, it's something I feel I know as sure as I know I'm sitting in a chair right now. Just because a few people deny something doesn't mean we can't accept it as true. I think people do what they know is evil all the time, even if they may rationalize it as well as they can. I think you are naive if you think people rarely do what they believe to be evil. "Sorry to spoil your dream." :P
You are within your rights to belief things and to belief you know the things you believe. You can accept something to be true without having knowledge of it being true. However neither of those would be evidence that you do know. Nor does most people agreeing in an objective morality indicate that we know morality is objective instead of subjective. I will point out many do what they profess to be evil but saying and believing rarely correlate in those instances. I count rationalizations as signs of the individual's true beliefs not matching what they claim to believe. I also consider all of the mind including impulses as having a say in the honest beliefs of what is evil. It is a cynical view not optimistic like most "naive dreams".
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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310554#msg310554
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2011, 06:30:38 pm »
I also consider all of the mind including impulses as having a say in the honest beliefs of what is evil.
Could you explain what you mean there?
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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310560#msg310560
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2011, 06:38:07 pm »
I also consider all of the mind including impulses as having a say in the honest beliefs of what is evil.
Could you explain what you mean there?
For instance
A person consciously claims that stealing is wrong, becomes overcome with greed and steals something. Afterwards that feel guilty for doing what their conscious mind claims is wrong. I would claim that their whole mind (conscious + subconscious and automatic impulses or desires) would not agree that they ought not steal.

Believing something is wrong is believing you ought not do it. Obviously if someone does something then they did not believe that they ought not do it because they did it.
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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310568#msg310568
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2011, 06:46:56 pm »
Believing something is wrong is believing you ought not do it. Obviously if someone does something then they did not believe that they ought not do it because they did it.

So, say (pure example) i force someone who believes murder is wrong to commit murder, using his family as hostages, that guy believed murder was right?
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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg310571#msg310571
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2011, 06:48:23 pm »
Believing something is wrong is believing you ought not do it. Obviously if someone does something then they did not believe that they ought not do it because they did it.

So, say (pure example) i force someone who believes murder is wrong to commit murder, using his family as hostages, that guy believed murder was right?

They believed that their family being held hostage made the killing they did justified and thus not murder.
Good example.
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anything
blarg: