Does anyone have a strong argument against God?

[BluePriest]

Im going to try to focus in on things. So other people, Im not ignoring you. I want the discussion (as I think many others do) to get more focused. We can always go back to things if we want to.

For me, thats the way of life. I might be wrong, but i have the feeling that you dont agree on the idea that most knowlegde might be proven wrong or faulty at some time?

I do agree that most knowledge will be proven wrong or faulty.  Thats why I stick to facts, not theories. Facts have a lot better chance of not being proven wrong, meanwhile, with new facts introduced, there is a better chance of theories being proven wrong. 1+1 will always be 2. No amount of evidence will prove otherwise. JFK was assassinated. That is a historical fact. Not something people will ever prove false. 9/11 had the twin towers attacked by terrorists. That is a fact. There are a whole bunch of conspiracy theories surrounding it, and honestly we cant ever know for sure if the US goverment had something to do with it or not. I Believe that it didnt, however, that could be proven wrong.

This is how I look at life.

@Tarius: Im not sure where you are getting your information... I know a lot of people that have grown up as christians, and arent anymore. The highest education any of them are persuing is a game designer. That isnt rocket science.

Meanwhile, I know quite a few people as well that grew up in homes that where devoid of God, and are now Devote Christians.

Final point for this post since Im trying to keep it to a minimum.

To be honest, that really isn't any better. I'll show you what I mean.

But you have no idea how much it truly, deeply, honestly pains me to see people reject intelligence. It's quite frankly depression inducing when I try and try again to reach people with intelligence and they reject me.

And what happens if we dont accept what you consider intelligent? All this information that we gather, what good will it bring us? Will we cure a disease? So what. We are just going to die anyways.

Meanwhile, Christians, there isnt just death. There is something very real afterwards. Theres a youtube video, Letter from Hell (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1114150/a_letter_from_hell/), that I showed my sunday school class. Mind you it isnt to scare people into becoming Christians, it isnt for someone who doesnt believe in God. It is for people who already are Christians, to show them the importance of evangelism. 

I want to comment on more thing s you said QuantumT But we can get to it eventually.

[tyranim]

havent you heard, there is no such thing as proof or fact
(being somewhat serious)

[Tarias]

Meanwhile, Christians, there isnt just death. There is something very real afterwards. Theres a youtube video, Letter from Hell (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1114150/a_letter_from_hell/), that I showed my sunday school class. Mind you it isnt to scare people into becoming Christians, it isnt for someone who doesnt believe in God. It is for people who already are Christians, to show them the importance of evangelism. 

HAHA, that video made me rofl so hard. But let me ask you, what if you die, and you find yourself in the realm of hades, without a coin to pay for your passing across the Styx? What makes your hell so much more real then the realm of Hades? Also, if that is what you actually believe, daaaaammmnnn that god is even more screwed up then I thought.. Why the fuck would you believe in something as evil as that?

To quote the great Greek filosofer Epicurus:   
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Also this isn't going to scare any atheist, it will make them laugh. The whole goal of this video is to make young christians try to spread christianity to their friends. And Christians trying to spread their religion so much is EXACTLY what makes them SO annoying.

I have no problem at all with people being religious. I DO have a problem with people projecting that religion onto the people around them. I understand that even if you are given solid proof that there is no god, you will still believe in god. I'm fine with that, it is probably to late to change that. But please stop trying to spread your religion..

[BluePriest]

 

havent you heard, there is no such thing as proof or fact
(being somewhat serious)

That is true to a certain extent lol

[Kuu]

I have no problem at all with people being religious. I DO have a problem with people projecting that religion onto the people around them. I understand that even if you are given solid proof that there is no god, you will still believe in god. I'm fine with that, it is probably to late to change that. But please stop trying to spread your religion..

What do you mean by projecting? I could understand why you'd be bothered if someone was stalking your house and trying to get you to become a Christian every morning, even after you asked them to stop, but you chose to come to this thread. Also, did think Christians try and "spread their religion" because it's fun? Does it sound like something fun to do? Does it sound like something anyone with their head on straight would do if they didn't really care about you?

To quote the great Greek filosofer Epicurus:   
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

God is both able and willing, but people cling to evil and the destruction of evil would be the destruction of free will. Also, I think it's worth mentioning that though God created all things, the one thing he didn't create was evil. This seems impossible at first glance, but I will explain how:

As soon as you create something (let's say for example Shakespeare creates Hamlet), everything else but that thing is not it. SO, Shaksepeare creates Hamlet, everything else is then not Hamlet. Of course you could say that everything even before that was not Hamlet, and that would be true, but then Hamlet would be an abstract non-existant subject and the term not-Hamlet would be of no value. Also when Shaksepeare creates Hamlet, the possibility for anti-Hamlet comes. Anti-Hamlet is a rather silly example because there are few people who would decide to go against everything that Hamlet says, but this is like the relationship of GOd, good, and evil (God replacing Shakespeare and Good replacing Hamlet, evil is anti-good).

I think it'd be nice to take a break from science and even philosophy for a bit. Probably none of our minds will be changed, but if we can focus on something else then perhaps we may still come to better understand eachother? Besides, if the universe is here by accident (it must be if it wasn't created) then the earth is here by accident. If the earth is here by accident then people are here by accident. If people are here by accident then people's thoughts are an accident. If people's thoughts are an accident then scientist's thoughts are an accident, and I'm not particularly fond of trusting an accident.

Also, I was wondering (as part of the getting o understand eachother better): Many atheists claim they have no problem with religion, so long as religious people don't bother them. But then why do so many atheists (Richard Dawkins for an example) write books about why religions are false and have debates all the time?

[Tarias]

To quote the great Greek filosofer Epicurus:   
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

God is both able and willing, but people cling to evil and the destruction of evil would be the destruction of free will. Also, I think it's worth mentioning that though God created all things, the one thing he didn't create was evil. This seems impossible at first glance, but I will explain how:

What you suggest is: He doesn't want to destroy evil, because it would destroy freedom. Which means he isn't willing. Therefore he is malevolent.

[qoute] Also, I was wondering (as part of the getting o understand eachother better): Many atheists claim they have no problem with religion, so long as religious people don't bother them. But then why do so many atheists (Richard Dawkins for an example) write books about why religions are false and have debates all the time?
[/quote]
This isn't that hard to understand I think. Religion has alot of power. In the Netherlands this isn't nearly as big of a deal, because the seperation between church and government is very clear. In the US however, religion has alot of power. And since alot people are religious, there are virtually no Atheists in politics. According to Dawkins (and I fully agree on this subject) this is very bad. There is a strong negative correlation between religion and intelligence. And it's the intelligent people you want running your country! What Dawkins is mainly fighting for, is for atheists to "get out of their closet" in the US. Again, I have no idea what it's like, because I don't live in the US. In my class for example, there was 1 devout christian out of 30 people. And I was on a "christian school" But from what I can tell here, Christianity in the US doesn't differ alot from the Islam in Irak/Iran etc. When your own prestident claims that atheists aren't really people, something is wrong in your country.

[funplay]

I think it'd be nice to take a break from science and even philosophy for a bit. Probably none of our minds will be changed, but if we can focus on something else then perhaps we may still come to better understand eachother?

Well, i was going in that direction...at least thats what i thought  But take your break, i will be waiting

Also, I was wondering (as part of the getting o understand eachother better): Many atheists claim they have no problem with religion, so long as religious people don't bother them. But then why do so many atheists (Richard Dawkins for an example) write books about why religions are false and have debates all the time?

Concerning books and debates: There are always people, regardless of their belief, that love to share their opion and write them down. As i am not much into literature, but i am sure, that for every book talking about why religions are false you will find another one defending or forwarding religion...i dont think mixing private life with publicity does any good here

[Kuu]

And since alot people are religious, there are virtually no Atheists in politics.

Really? Do you think that everyone in politics who claims to be a Christian really is? They all do it because at the moment Christianity is the accepted religion in the US and it sounds good to most people that the president is "Christian".

There is a strong negative correlation between religion and intelligence.

Unfortunately, I must agree here. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of brilliant Christians who go to university and study science or philosophy or whatever, but the church is generally rather hostile towards the mind (probably because of all the "educated" people that are constantly bombarding and slamming the church for it's beliefs). I and a great number of Christians I know would like very much for this to change.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all of your mind and with all of your strength. (Mark 12:30)

When your own prestident claims that atheists aren't really people, something is wrong in your country.

When did he say that?! Please supply a video.

[BluePriest]

What you suggest is: He doesn't want to destroy evil, because it would destroy freedom. Which means he isn't willing. Therefore he is malevolent.

There is a difference between being willing to do something, and actually doing it. A direct example, would be this. and I have been in this situation before.

I have a friend, who has problems going on. I am willing to speak to that person. That person isnt ready for me to speak to her and hear me out though. So I dont. I have the will to, and I want to, but I am not going to force the person to listen to me. Same with God. He is not going to force us to turn away from sin, even though he is very willing to help us.

" Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. ." Rev 3:19-21.

God is able to open the door, however, he wont come unless invited.

[Tarias]

What you suggest is: He doesn't want to destroy evil, because it would destroy freedom. Which means he isn't willing. Therefore he is malevolent.

There is a difference between being willing to do something, and actually doing it. A direct example, would be this. and I have been in this situation before.

I have a friend, who has problems going on. I am willing to speak to that person. That person isnt ready for me to speak to her and hear me out though. So I dont. I have the will to, and I want to, but I am not going to force the person to listen to me. Same with God. He is not going to force us to turn away from sin, even though he is very willing to help us.

" Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. ." Rev 3:19-21.

God is able to open the door, however, he wont come unless invited.

Again, he is able, but he doesn't want to. Does his reason really matter? Or are you trying to say he can't because we don't want it? in that case he isn't able. There is no midway here. Either he isn't willing, or he can't. (or he doesn't exsist, just sayin)

Also on the video; not sure if there is one, but i'm sure if you google something like "bush atheist citizen" you will find what i'm talking about.

[Kuu]

Again, he is able, but he doesn't want to. Does his reason really matter? Or are you trying to say he can't because we don't want it? in that case he isn't able. There is no midway here. Either he isn't willing, or he can't. (or he doesn't exsist, just sayin)

Yes Tarias, he could storm earth and destroy all evil, and that would mean destroying the people that cling to evil to evil or at the very least turning people who cling to evil into robots without freewill. As I said before, as long as there is the possibility for good, there is also the possiblity for not good and anti-good. So for God to destroy evil I would imagine he would either have to destroy everything besides himself (because he is all that is always good) or he would have to completely destroy freewill so that we could not choose good or evil but only unconciously do things that are technically good in a robot like manner. God does not want you to destroy you or make you a robot and I would think you should be glad about that.

[BluePriest]

Again, he is able, but he doesn't want to. Does his reason really matter? Or are you trying to say he can't because we don't want it? in that case he isn't able. There is no midway here. Either he isn't willing, or he can't. (or he doesn't exsist, just sayin)

Also on the video; not sure if there is one, but i'm sure if you google something like "bush atheist citizen" you will find what i'm talking about.

You misquoted me. He is willing, able AND he wants to. But he chooses not to revoke free will.  Polka Put it great.