Does anyone have a strong argument against God?

[OldTrees]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Just two words: Air? Gas?

Observed is meant very loosely. Wind resistance or the mass of air is enough to count by his standard. Even bending a light wave would count as observed.

[BluePriest]

is getting tiring. If you think the world (including especially human nature) is perfect the way it is, more power to you. I think an omnipotent, kind God should be able to do better.

I dont know where I said that. In fact, I believe I pretty much said just the opposite. I think I just admitted that probably 100% of the world sins on a monthly basis. And that is just under 1 of the 10 commandments.

[Neopergoss]

is getting tiring. If you think the world (including especially human nature) is perfect the way it is, more power to you. I think an omnipotent, kind God should be able to do better.

I dont know where I said that. In fact, I believe I pretty much said just the opposite. I think I just admitted that probably 100% of the world sins on a monthly basis. And that is just under 1 of the 10 commandments.

But you believe that such sin is basically necessary evil that results from free will. The system, in your view, can't be improved or it already would have been by God. I disagree because I don't share the premise that there exists an omnipotent, kind God.

[BluePriest]

But you believe that such sin is basically necessary evil that results from free will. The system, in your view, can't be improved or it already would have been by God. I disagree because I don't share the premise that there exists an omnipotent, kind God.

I think you misunderstand what I am trying to do here. All I am trying to get you to do is understand christianity more. I am not trying to convert you. This is a thread about if someone has a strong argument against God. It got on the subject of sin and if it is hard or easy to sin. You don't like how God made the world.Thats fine. You are allowed to not like it because you have free will. What I am trying to do is help you understand WHY it is how it is. It started off as a discussion, which is great, but now you are reverting to "well I dont believe in God so it doesnt matter" and when it comes to an argument against God, that is not one.

[Bloodshadow]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Just two words: Air? Gas?

I never really found out what exactly qualifies as conscious observation. I started a thread about it but not many replied. So instead of trying to sound like a smartass and humiliate me, maybe you should read the theory yourself. I'm not stupid enough to leave such blatant gaping holes in my argument.

[Nepycros]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Just two words: Air? Gas?

I never really found out what exactly qualifies as conscious observation. I started a thread about it but not many replied. So instead of trying to sound like a smartass and humiliate me, maybe you should read the theory yourself. I'm not stupid enough to leave such blatant gaping holes in my argument.

I'm pretty sure you can observe air, basically because you can examine the molecules and atoms that make up the air. Using electron microscopess rather than plain vision is a really good change. We can also observe the effects that what can't be normally observed gives off. For example, black holes.

[BluePriest]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Just two words: Air? Gas?

I never really found out what exactly qualifies as conscious observation. I started a thread about it but not many replied. So instead of trying to sound like a smartass and humiliate me, maybe you should read the theory yourself. I'm not stupid enough to leave such blatant gaping holes in my argument.

I'm pretty sure you can observe air, basically because you can examine the molecules and atoms that make up the air. Using electron microscopess rather than plain vision is a really good change. We can also observe the effects that what can't be normally observed gives off. For example, black holes.

I would be careful how you use "effects" as a way to observe something. Whats to say that effect isnt God?

[Neopergoss]

But you believe that such sin is basically necessary evil that results from free will. The system, in your view, can't be improved or it already would have been by God. I disagree because I don't share the premise that there exists an omnipotent, kind God.

I think you misunderstand what I am trying to do here. All I am trying to get you to do is understand christianity more. I am not trying to convert you. This is a thread about if someone has a strong argument against God. It got on the subject of sin and if it is hard or easy to sin. You don't like how God made the world.Thats fine. You are allowed to not like it because you have free will. What I am trying to do is help you understand WHY it is how it is. It started off as a discussion, which is great, but now you are reverting to "well I dont believe in God so it doesnt matter" and when it comes to an argument against God, that is not one.

I already understand Christianity. I'm well-versed in its defense. I'm open to your interpretation of the religion but it's not as though I'm totally ignorant of it.

I'm not reverting to "I don't believe in God so it doesn't matter." What I'm saying is that you're starting with the assumption that everything is perfect and then trying to figure out why, but anyone not starting with that assumption would never come to that conclusion. The only way to come to that conclusion is to twist reality around until it starts to jive with your assumption. You're not helping me to understand why it is how it is -- you're helping me to understand how you personally are able to believe that such a flawed existence is somehow perfect: a powerful manifestation of doublethink.

[BluePriest]

I dont know where I said that. In fact, I believe I pretty much said just the opposite. I think I just admitted that probably 100% of the world sins on a monthly basis. And that is just under 1 of the 10 commandments.

Once again, I never said I think the world is perfect. All I am saying is that it is not as bad as people make it out to be. Nothing more nothing less. In fact, the world is flawed due to the origin of sin (I believe I mentioned that as well but that may have been another topic).

The only way to come to that conclusion is to twist reality around until it starts to jive with your assumption.

How am I twisting reality?

If you want to have a conversation, be prepared to give examples, preferably in the post you say them so that we dont have to waste time asking each other what we are talking about.  Since you seem to continue to be under the impression that I think the world is perfect, even though I specifically said (and just quoted myself saying) that it isnt, it is making me believe that you are having trouble looking at me as an individual Christian, and are instead lumping me into this worldview you have of Christians as a whole, which I can assure you I do not fall into. I do hope that isnt the case, however, you are not doing much to show otherwise.

[Neopergoss]

I dont know where I said that. In fact, I believe I pretty much said just the opposite. I think I just admitted that probably 100% of the world sins on a monthly basis. And that is just under 1 of the 10 commandments.

Once again, I never said I think the world is perfect. All I am saying is that it is not as bad as people make it out to be. Nothing more nothing less. In fact, the world is flawed due to the origin of sin (I believe I mentioned that as well but that may have been another topic).

The only way to come to that conclusion is to twist reality around until it starts to jive with your assumption.

How am I twisting reality?

If you want to have a conversation, be prepared to give examples, preferably in the post you say them so that we dont have to waste time asking each other what we are talking about.  Since you seem to continue to be under the impression that I think the world is perfect, even though I specifically said (and just quoted myself saying) that it isnt, it is making me believe that you are having trouble looking at me as an individual Christian, and are instead lumping me into this worldview you have of Christians as a whole, which I can assure you I do not fall into. I do hope that isnt the case, however, you are not doing much to show otherwise.

You neglected to include my response to when you first said the world isn't perfect, or to respond to it earlier.

At any rate, that you believe that the world is flawed because of the fall does give us something to talk about. I do now recall you mentioning it earlier, though you didn't respond to what I said about it. Like using God to explain the universe's origin, this explanation raises more questions than it answers: Flawed man sins because he is flawed. He is flawed because once, a long time ago, a man who wasn't flawed sinned. Now that seems a little harder to explain. Why did the man who wasn't flawed sin? Well, he had the capacity for sin -- a "gift" called "free will." But why would he do it? Well of course, a woman made him do it! Ok, well why did she do that? Well, there was an evil snake who tempted her. Oh, ok, everything is explained. Except wait -- why was there an evil snake in God's idyllic Garden of Eden? And why was there a forbidden tree within man's reach? And why does one man's sin from the beginning of humanity affect the entire race? I could go on, but I don't think it would be necessary.

[silux]

Imho God has nothing to do with:

• Bad events
• Free will
• Man creation
• Origin of the Universe
• Sins and Afterlife
• Death and Birth
• Future of Universe
• Bible

Think about Bible as a collection of miths.
Sins and Afterlife are needed to young men to accept life.Then you can understand what sins are and eventually accept to die.
Future of universe is a non-sense;time is a dimension just like lenght and hight.
Death and Birth are needed to life to proceed and become stronger.
The world is not made for us but we are made for the world.

If you have doubt about God existance just ask him.It's easier than reading thousands of books:D

[OldTrees]

If you have doubt about God existance just ask him.It's easier than reading thousands of books:D

He doesn't communicate when I ask him. Even if logic is not true, I still receive syntax from books. That is more that I can say about a conscious deity if one exists.