Elements Hierarchy

[Nepycros]

So your saying that Darkness has a physical presence?

[QuantumT]

So your saying that Darkness has a physical presence?

I'm saying that darkness is defined as the lack of light, not the lack of everything.

[Flayne]

So your saying that Darkness has a physical presence?

I'm saying that darkness is defined as the lack of light, not the lack of everything.

Darkness definition 1 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/darkness)
Darkness definition 2 (http://www.answers.com/topic/darkness-2)

Enough said.

[wizelsnarf]

By chaos starting the universe I meant that as far back as we can see to the edge of the visible universe/the beginning of time extremely small "random" variations in matter and antimatter formed.


Like you know how if you look at a picture of infrared of the beginning of the universe, or more simply turn your TV on to a channel that has nothing playing. The static is the residual "chaos" from the beginning of the universe.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang



As to time, we know approximately when the universe began (or at least our universe) so what does it even mean to talk about time in the context of "Before the Universe". Also Time stands still if you are going the speed of light... So if Time isn't going forwards or backwards, does it even exist? I think time is important but I would put it after entropy...

[Flayne]

By chaos starting the universe I meant that as far back as we can see to the edge of the visible universe/the beginning of time extremely small "random" variations in matter and antimatter formed.


Like you know how if you look at a picture of infrared of the beginning of the universe, or more simply turn your TV on to a channel that has nothing playing. The static is the residual "chaos" from the beginning of the universe.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang



As to time, we know approximately when the universe began (or at least our universe) so what does it even mean to talk about time in the context of "Before the Universe". Also Time stands still if you are going the speed of light... So if Time isn't going forwards or backwards, does it even exist? I think time is important but I would put it after entropy...

How can entropy be at the top if it needs physical matter to interact/alter? therefore something physical had to develop So then Entropy was given a reason to exists and affect that particular matter, hence the beginning of the universe?
for a certain matter to form, time would have been needed. who´s to say just because we have an "approximation" of the time the universe began, that time was never there beforehand? Time would have been needed for that very first piece of matter, no matter how small, to begin its existence, hence after that, giving Entropy a reason to exist and to affect that particular piece matter and thus the beginning of the universe.
which is why imo Time and Aether are at the top

[QuantumT]

He's using entropy to refer to chaos as opposed to the thermodynamic property.

[Flayne]

He's using entropy to refer to chaos as opposed to the thermodynamic property.

i know that, hence what i stated, Matter needs time to advance in its stages including the beginning of its existence.
he´s putting entropy before time, which is what im discussing.

[wizelsnarf]

My point is that Time didn't even exist.

Define time to me scientifically. What is time? It isn't as clear or easy as you think.

Time and space did not exist before the universe - How could they? And space itself is expanding meaning that if you run it in reverse, at some point there is no space. Same thing with Time.

I guess you could argue about the definition of time and say that it always exists (space certainly does NOT have to exist) but I would argue time does not have to exist either.

If you had Time and Space but no "chaos", you would have nothing. What a boring universe that would be.

[Flayne]

My point is that Time didn't even exist.

Define time to me scientifically. What is time? It isn't as clear or easy as you think.

Time and space did not exist before the universe - How could they? And space itself is expanding meaning that if you run it in reverse, at some point there is no space. Same thing with Time.

I guess you could argue about the definition of time and say that it always exists (space certainly does NOT have to exist) but I would argue time does not have to exist either.

If you had Time and Space but no "chaos", you would have nothing. What a boring universe that would be.

but leaving time and space on their own isnt my point, my point is based on how i said Entropy needed Matter to have a reason to exist or to alter, and to have matter, Time is needed for its advancement while space is needed so matter has something to occupy, how can matter exist if there is no foundation to base it on?
thats like saying a wooden table consists of only a flat surface of wood with no legs, it can´t float on its own, it needs a foundation, hence the legs of the table. And to make the table, you obviously need the time to do it.
you need the Wood as a resource for the table.
you also need energy to do it.
energy is spent during that time


Relating this example with the formation of the universe, we can say that the Energy is Entropy
and the Wood is Space.
Hence the Energy is spent during that time, using the Space, to create Matter.
Time + Space + Energy = formation of universe

thats the best way i can summarize it.

[wizelsnarf]

Entropy doesn't need matter to create itself. That is where we are not seeing eye to eye.

Imagine a singularity, there is nothing there, no time space, matter or anything.

Well due to entropy, out of nothing comes something. Nothing "breaks" down into matter and antimatter. Normally this process is not visible to us and has no effect because the matter and antimatter quickly annihilate each other and you are left with nothing again.

However, Entropy caused something to come from nothing in the first place. If there was no entropy, there would be no matter.

Do you see what I am saying? the universe began because Entropy caused a lot of matter-antimatter pairs to appear out of NOTHING. Yes matter came from nothing by means of Entropy.


Space itself wouldn't have existed until the matter came into existence either.


Time however is tougher to talk about. There are different definitions of time. Under some definitions Time had to exist when the universe began but under other definitions, Time doesn't have to be doing anything or exist. It is quite hard for me to understand myself.

Hawking has stated time began with the Big Bang. Meaning Time couldn't have existed until Entropy caused the Big Bang. It is pretty damn confusing though I have to say.

[QuantumT]

The definition of entropy is k ln(omega). Omega is what's called the multiplicity and it represents the number of states something can exist in. 'Nothing' has exactly one state, and that state is nothing. The entropy of nothing is there for 0.

This is why people have been saying something else has to exist in order for there to be entropy.

[Flayne]

Entropy doesn't need matter to create itself. That is where we are not seeing eye to eye.

Imagine a singularity, there is nothing there, no time space, matter or anything.

Well due to entropy, out of nothing comes something. Nothing "breaks" down into matter and antimatter. Normally this process is not visible to us and has no effect because the matter and antimatter quickly annihilate each other and you are left with nothing again.

However, Entropy caused something to come from nothing in the first place. If there was no entropy, there would be no matter.

Do you see what I am saying? the universe began because Entropy caused a lot of matter-antimatter pairs to appear out of NOTHING. Yes matter came from nothing by means of Entropy.

Space itself wouldn't have existed until the matter came into existence either.Time however is tougher to talk about. There are different definitions of time. Under some definitions Time had to exist when the universe began but under other definitions, Time doesn't have to be doing anything or exist. It is quite hard for me to understand myself.

Hawking has stated time began with the Big Bang. Meaning Time couldn't have existed until Entropy caused the Big Bang. It is pretty damn confusing though I have to say.

I agree to the point that Entropy caused something to come from nothing in relation to the universe however,
This in itself is a process.
and what does a process require to begin and end?
Time.

with that, i concur that time is placed higher than entropy for that exact reason.

now, about what you said with "space".
It was argued that with the big bang, space and matter both came into existence at the same time to benefit each other and coexist.

however this was countered by what was said,  that from the big bang, matter could not "outrun" space, because Matter needs space to exist, so it was said that space would have accelerated faster than matter itself so then all the Matter could be fit into what space there was at that time. It can´t be the reverse, where matter overlaps space, thats basically impossible.

however I could also argue that for the big bang to occur, space might have been needed for the event to occur, otherwise space would have to travel 100000000000x (Who knows how many zeros) faster than the speed of light
It may have been the space coming out of the big bang, or could there have already been space before the event?
such questions are most probably beyond our ability to answer (yet).