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Offline Amilir

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148600#msg148600
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2010, 07:22:35 pm »
Actually, I'd just pull a chriskang and run an algorithm.  Does anyone know the exact one currently?

Kuross

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148632#msg148632
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2010, 08:07:32 pm »
We know the probability of winning a card in a spin. We know the value of cards in AI3 decks. We can easily calculate the average revenue generated by spins.
I agree.

However, one must agree that if an advantage were to be gained by spininng with decks like frogtal or mindles dragons, that don't have ways to get EMs, it is then logical that those same benefits and advantages would also be gained by decks designed to win fast EMs, like mono-darkness and Life rush. Thus, so far in testing, one must agree that EMs are essential to gaining high electrum/score per game/minute.
I find that to be highly illogical actually. There are no real "fast EM" decks. EM decks are always slower because they have healing cards. It's impossible to have both very fast and EM.

The only question here is, do extra spins generate more revenue than EM bonus?

My guess is "yes".
The question with regard to the EM bonus is paramount in this study because the study is looking at real life times and it's impact on score and electrum. If I play for 2 hours a day, will the deck I am playing have more revenue than another deck played in the same amount of time? That is the real question this study hopes to answer.

We can look at two decks already tested to get an approximate answer, albeit this particular exercise is rather finite.

Let us examine "Mindless Dragons" vs. "Mono Darkness."

Mindless Dragons has ratios of 64.00 seconds/game, Score/Min: 17.325 and Elec/Min: 17.475.
Mono Darkness has ratios of 90.36 seconds/game, Score/Min: 19.573 and Elec/Min: 21.280.

Let's say I have 2 hours to play and I want to play the deck that nets me the most Score/electrum in that time. Although Score is more important since if I wanted only Electrum, I'd play either T50 or FGs.

With the Mindless Dragons I have played 112 games gaining 2079 score (17.325 * 120 minutes) and 2097 Electrum (17.475 * 120 minutes)

With Mono Darkness, I have played 80 games, gaining 2349 (19.573 * 120 minutes) and 2554 electrum (21.280 * 120 minutes).

Let's give spins a 10% chance for winning a card. Mindless Dragons played 32 more games than Mono Darkness did, so that's a difference of 96 (32 * 3 spins/game) spins. Since in over 5000 games played against AI3, I have won more Vultures than any other card (I actually tracked this to some degree), we can use it as a base. Vulture sells for 39 electrum a piece in the Bazaar. 10% of 96 is roughly 10 won spins, rounded up. Thus, if I were to sell the Vultures, I'd gain 390 Electrum. Also, we can assume that 20% of the spins had the first two pictures matching, that would be a gain of 5 Electrum per matched pair. 20% of 96 is 19, rounded down. Thus I would have further added 95 more Electrum (19 * 5 Electrum) to my overall gain.

So my new Electrum total would be for Mindless Dragons: 2582 Electrum. That is a gain of +28 electrum over Mono Darkness.

But the ultimate point of grinding AI3 is not to gain Electrum. It's to gain Score. And in the grand scheme of things, a net gain of +28 Electrum is nothing. One more game using Mono Darkness can easily make up that difference. The real number to be looking at here is the +252 score Darkness had over Dragons. Not only that, but it did that in 32 less games. People looking to increase their score and win ratios should be looking at EM based decks. What's even more, this particular example is looking at Mono Darkness's ability to EM grind. Life Rush is even faster. So it can be said that Life Rush decks can keep up better than Mono Darkness and further widen the gap between score/electrum versus speed AI3 grinders. My version of a Life Rush EM deck runs at 6.8 TTW, with a 27.023 Electrum/ minute and 24.439 Score/minute. Imagine if I used my deck instead of a pre established, tested one on this particular example.

Long story short, fast EM decks designed for AI3 will outpace any speed AI3 grinder that can't EM often (EM more than 20% of the time). JMDT still, as of this posting, as yet to post his Life Rush which has a higher EM than mine. I think those numbers will also speak for themselves.

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148650#msg148650
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2010, 08:20:04 pm »
You also have to consider that if you want to take spins into consideration, you have to account for the extra time it takes you to spin 3 times every single game, as well as going to the bazaar and going through all your cards, selling the ones you won.

Kuross

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148652#msg148652
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2010, 08:22:25 pm »
You also have to consider that if you want to take spins into consideration, you have to account for the extra time it takes you to spin 3 times every single game, as well as going to the bazaar and going through all your cards, selling the ones you won.
And you don't get any score from spins either ;)

Offline jmdtTopic starter

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148660#msg148660
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2010, 08:31:02 pm »
You also have to consider that if you want to take spins into consideration, you have to account for the extra time it takes you to spin 3 times every single game, as well as going to the bazaar and going through all your cards, selling the ones you won.
Since I usually play in sets of 200 lets do some basic math here.

So spins take ~8-12 seconds depending on how you calclulate.  We're working on the exact time.  Assuming 10 seconds, that would equate to 40 minutes of spins for 200 games.  40 minutes would be enough time for ~ 35-38 more games with a speed EM deck, adding ~ 26 more EM games in that time period assuming a 70% EM rate.  That would work out to ~1238 electrum and ~1108 score that would be gained through skipping spins.

Obviously you won't gain score throught the spins, but what is the electrum expected from 200 spins? Prolly more than ~1238, but when you are worried about score, getting the electrum for almost an upped card is nice.

All this also ignores that fact that if you spin, it takes a decent amount of time at the end of the day to sell cards in which you could play more games as well.  No way of telling how long selling a days worth of card would take.

Offline Wolfunit

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148669#msg148669
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2010, 08:41:48 pm »
Add +1 Karma for jmdt+Kuross for the great work which both of them are doing on the ttw/wts topics.Making jmdt a deck helper was the right thing to do hehe also i see Kuross as our next Deck Helper working with jmdt to give us more info dont you think so ScaredGirl. :)
Hello, If you're a active player on Kongregate and in need of help you can leave a message on my profile which is qazzaq123. :D

Offline jmdtTopic starter

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148671#msg148671
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2010, 08:46:52 pm »
Added my epi rush to the study.  Not a lot to add, but solid fast deck with a lot of clicks due to the epinephrine's.

Frogs, and Epi's, and Swords, Oh My!!! (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11285.0.html) - jmdt
Sec/game: 60.04, Sec/Turn: 9.715, Clicks/Game: 12.40, Clicks/Turn: 2.006, Score/Min: 17.428, Elec/Min: 17.428
Time overall (min.): 50.033, Score: 872, Electrum: 872, Wins: 50, Ems: 0, Losses: 0, Avg ttw: 6.18

JJ 52

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148672#msg148672
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2010, 08:49:12 pm »
well, you dont have to sell them after each time you spin, you could do it once at the end.

Most of the cards you guys care about are only the upped ones and the rares, you could just sell the non-upped/rare. Thats what I do, except I look more carefully at the elements where I have unupped mono decks in.

Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148673#msg148673
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2010, 08:54:50 pm »
this is just.... lifeless.

Offline jmdtTopic starter

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148675#msg148675
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2010, 08:56:07 pm »
well, you dont have to sell them after each time you spin, you could do it once at the end.

Most of the cards you guys care about are only the upped ones and the rares, you could just sell the non-upped/rare. Thats what I do, except I look more carefully at the elements where I have unupped mono decks in.
I keep 6 of every card unupped and 12 or each rare unupped, so it actaully takes some thought and mental math to sell cards.

Kuross

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Re: Win Time Study - Pro Stats for Pro Grinders. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148676#msg148676
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2010, 08:57:43 pm »
well, you dont have to sell them after each time you spin, you could do it once at the end.

Most of the cards you guys care about are only the upped ones and the rares, you could just sell the non-upped/rare. Thats what I do, except I look more carefully at the elements where I have unupped mono decks in.
Yeah, it's why I keep getting the "can not save. 3000 card limit reached" popup a lot lately. I usually only ever sell my excess cards when I have to. Although it was amusing to have 90+ Vultures at one point :P

Yeah, jmdt and I are already talking about specific numbers we can add to his study to accomodate for spin times (which seems to be a flat 8 seconds), electrum won from spins, cards won spins, rares won from spins, so on ad so forth to be more accurate. However, one needs to keep in mind this is AI3 we're talking about so spin information is not as substantial as actual score information. It's just a way to really round out the AI3 experience. Just nice to know what other benefits one can get from score grinding AI3 for 2+ hours. ;)

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Re: Time To Win Study https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11935.msg148766#msg148766
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2010, 12:20:45 am »
tests for: Mono-Earth Shrieker Rush (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,482.0.html)

Games:   50
   
Time overall (min.):   48.067
avg. Sec/Game:   57.680
Sec/Turn:      9.979
Clicks/Game:   13.140
Clicks/Turn:   2.273
Score/Min:   19.244
Electrum/Min:   19.723
   
Wins:   50
Ems:    3
Losses:   0
   
Score:   925
Electrum:   948
   
Avg ttw:   5.780
   
ttw Details:   
ttw 5:   20
ttw 6:   23
ttw 7:   6
ttw 9:   1

more stats for: Mindless Ruby Dragons - fastest way to grind AI3 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11593.0.html)

Games:   100
   
Time overall (min.):   110
avg. Sec/Game:   66.020
Sec/Turn:     9.680
Clicks/Game:   13.000
Clicks/Turn:   1.906
Score/Min:   16.922
Electrum/Min:   17.213
   
Wins:   97
Ems:    3
Losses:   3
   
Score:   1862
Electrum:   1894
   
Avg ttw:   6.82
   
ttw Details:   
ttw 5:   15
ttw 6:   35
ttw 7:   26
ttw 8:   16
ttw 9:   2
ttw 10:   2
ttw 11:   2
ttw 12:   1
ttw 13:   0
ttw 14:   0
ttw 15:   1


 

blarg: