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Offline willng3

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Re: Looking Towards Next Patch (v1.33) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45681.msg1029815#msg1029815
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 09:28:15 am »
Alright, go time.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that I also posted a bit on this subject on this thread ages ago.  While my thoughts on the subject have matured a bit since that time, my stance on most of those problems remains the same.

At the moment I feel like Life is sort of getting pulled in two different directions as a whole, one in the direction of healing/stalling and the other in the direction of rushing.  Depending on what new additions are made in the future, we could expect to see it become exclusively one of the two or both simultaneously.  I would prefer to see the latter happen, as being one dimensional would make it less versatile and easier to prepare for by other elements.  Take Fire for instance.  Fire excels in both the ability to rush and the ability to control.  It is extremely difficult for a player to prepare a single deck which is capable of countering both Firestall and Immorush simultaneously.  I would like to find Life in a similar position at some point in the future.

The core of what prevents Life from being considered a higher tiered element is that its greatest strength (the ability to swarm) is ironically one of the features that is easiest to counter by control from other elements.  Unupped Life (not including its Nymph) features a single creature which can withstand the force of a Lightning, Shockwave or Rage Potion - Emerald Dragon.  But Emerald Dragon doesn't function well with what Life does at its core.  Using Mitosis Dragons is expensive and requires a great deal of Pillar usage for it to work efficiently.  Dragons do not make very good Adrenaline targets either.  Without Mitosis, Bonds and Dragons have little synergy, and the trio is too expensive for it to thwart the efforts of rushes and most medium speed decks.  So this means that in most cases the player will find Mitosis, Bonds and Adrenaline synergizing best with smaller, cheaper creatures.  But in Life's case those creatures are the most prone to being removed from the field, or just neutralized in general.  Expanding from a Mono also causes problems since most of the cards which would make suitable targets for Mitosis and/or Adrenaline are either fragile or costly.  Quanta's not as easy to come by early on for unupped decks, so cost becomes a huge factor in deciding the strength of duos.  So the source of the problem here clearly lies in-element.

How do you resolve this problem?  You need to either give Life a way of defending itself against creature control or increase its rate of spawning creatures in general.  Mitosis's single turn delay is an enormous flaw for the card and what it can do for Life because that single turn either prevents it from being used completely or negates its use before it has an opportunity to really do anything.  Adrenaline is a commonly seen tactic for Life decks mainly because it's able to hit the opponent hard before they have a chance to counter the creature appropriately in some cases.  Damage dealt by Adrenaline is not so easily regained or overcome even if the creature is removed immediately.

Defensive solutions:
  • Midrange hitters/more durable creatures.
    Spoiler for Hidden:
    Life currently lacks a midrange hitter.  The closest to this would be Cockatrice, but I wouldn't consider its stats in either the unupped/upped environments to be on par with that class.  However, simply adding a creature that has a medium attack for a reasonable cost doesn't solve much unless it also has HP or an ability which makes it more likely to survive on the field for an extended period of time.  Seiryuu is a perfect example of this.  Fae | Alfar is another candidate.

    The problem with taking this path as a solution is that if the creature's stats are too high then it only reasonably gains Adrenaline synergy as its higher cost would make it harder to use to swarm using Mitosis.  And Life really doesn't need additional ways to damage players if it aims to remain midway between rushing and stalling.  In saying that, Seiryuu may be too expensive as it stands.  Fae might also be more difficult to use in the early game, when the need to set up is more urgent.  It's also nearly impossible to use practically with Mitosis.
  • Removal of a creature's ability to be targeted by the opponent.
    Spoiler for Hidden:
    This can be done in a various number of ways.  You could either make the creature untargetable or you could remove the opponent's access to cards/abilities which can target the creature.  Some time ago I tried to create a creature which absorbed the effects of cards targeting other creatures on the field.  However, it's hard to word such a card correctly without making it abusable with Quint and by having multiple copies out among other things.  Foliage is a prime candidate for a card which offers creature invulnerability.

    Removing the opponent's access to those cards that can remove your creatures from the field are most likely going to have occur in the forum of a spell unless the creature or permanent has some kind of upkeep which makes it harder to keep in play forever.  Two examples of this that come to mind are Rejuvenation and Adenosine.

    While all of these would be ideal with giving you an opportunity to set up unhindered, they do each come with their consequences.  Foliage will seem to most as being too similar to Cloak and does not offer protection against AoE spell cards (although those aren't exactly commonly played in the early game, that does cause more than a few issues during the mid to late game).  Rejuvenation and Adenosine are interesting in that they both fail to negate a form of control that the other is able to eliminate.  Rejuvenation has no power over spell cards while Adenosine can't do anything to stop renewable control from being used.  Rejuvenation is much more versatile, but offers less protection.  However, the even bigger issue is that each one of the cards listed here has to be used in conjunction with the creature/spell being used or else there's little hope of the combination you're attempting to set up being successful.  So this method basically turns a 2-3 card combo into a 3-4 card combo unless a creature is being used for everything.
  • Consequences for being targeted by the opponent.
    Spoiler for Hidden:
    Several ways to do this as well.  The most prominent themes seem to be aggressive consequences verses passive consequences.

    Aggressive consequences include card destruction or damage to creatures/players for being targeted or destroyed.  A very good example of this is Wolf.

    Passive consequences include healing you or spawning additional creatures upon being targeted or destroyed.  Two good examples of this are Fungus | Toxic Fungus and Natural Selection | Evolution.

    Drawbacks:  Wolf is kind of fragile considering that you need a lot of them out before you can even begin to enjoy the benefits of its effects.  Its effect also harming its owner is another concern, although it would be cool if it could be used with Emerald/Jade Shield.  Natural Selection/Evolution requires another creature to already be in play, and I don't believe it copies abilities like Mitosis or Adrenaline either.  The Fungi are pretty well rounded I'd say.  Doesn't stop it from getting zapped if you cast Mitosis on one since its ability is active, but it makes a very good target for Adrenaline unupped and even the ability to be able to stay on the field for an extended period of time is favorable in Life's current position.
Increased spawning ability:
-  There's quite a few ways that you could go about doing this, but you'd have to be very, very careful about the amount of speed you're granting to Life by doing so.  I also have a feeling that such a card would have to have a semi-situational ability or would need to have a high cost + activated ability for it to be resilient while spawning new creatures; similar to FFQ or Pharaoh most likely.  Of course, that then calls into question how much use it would give to Mitosis and Adrenaline since it'd most likely be good for use alongside Bonds.  The first option seems much more interesting, though.  Grateful Oak is a terrific example of a card like this.

All in all, there's an incredible number of candidates for cards in the CI&A section right now that would bring serious improvement to Life if they were brought into the game.  The issue at this point, however, doesn't seem to be coming up with the ideas as much as somehow getting zanz to listen to suggestions of adding them in the first place.  I'm really not sure what to make of his more recent methods for selecting cards to add to the game.
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Offline nensuru

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Re: Looking Towards Next Patch (v1.33) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45681.msg1029873#msg1029873
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 03:23:00 pm »
Anti-cc and better use of heal to stall.

:life has a huge disadvantage while facing damaging cc, it basically gives the enemy card advantage if the life player uses adrenaline or mitosis on his deck. On top of that life cant stall well, making these cc cards a safe pick in restricted pvp, unless you try to burst your opponent (frogtal, tugons).

If you take :light in comparison: this element have a huge desadvantage while facing delaying cc, its creatures costs are high, durable and it have acess to a def buff spell. But in other hand light stalls well, making possible to counteract cc cards by using stalls.

So here goes some suggestions for changes for existing cards that i think would improve life:

  • Mitosis: the monster gets a defensive buff that decays after every usage of the effect.
  • Heal: scaling healing with quanta (similar to stone skin). Raise max hp while holding a staff.
  • Carapace: costs more than fire shield and is less effective as a stanalone card AND as a card in the element (fire full of cc, life has none). No idea how to buff this card, probably trade if for another shield or perm that helps stall.
  • Bond: really weak card, defensive aoe buff maybe.
  • Scorpion: needs a -1 cost buff. Despite being the only scorpion with in element buff, adrena scorp makes cc even better
    against life. If you take the other scorpions as a base for balance: dune scorpion doesnt even care about cc, deathstalker can be used in conjuction to eclpse so you dont trade 2 cards for 1(adrenascorp vs cc), you actualy trade 1 for 1 and the buff will stil be aplyed to other creatures, the other buff cards grant this card useful stats: momentum or additional atk/def.

Spamming cards on the field is also a good way to make single target cc less useful, as Pineaple mentioned greateful Oak is a good card doing this, it speeds up the deck by drawing cards, and solves the problem of the draw disadvantage that spam decks suffers (little cards means little impact in the game), it also makes your opponent choose beetwen burning cc on the best attack/cost ratio critters on the game or 0n this 0 atk card.

And for stall, i think that life needs a really good defensive monster to synergize with bond or just replace it for something similar to Symbiosis

 

anything
blarg: