Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section

[Planplan]

We interrupt this bickering to bring you an urgent message!

No not really. Anyways, I do believe that this idea is quite good. It will help with organization greatly; also, this makes a great complement to Planplan's image generator.

My generator will make a great complement I think, seems more natural when said like this

I think it's a good idea to sort the good cards in a dedicated topic. Most of the time, I don't read card idea, or one at random sometimes. Too much things to read on this forum... So, if I could just look at the best ideas...

I understand Kael position, but I still think everybody should have the opportunity to vote. I'm not speaking a lot, only when I have something to say, so, how could you know if I'm an Educated, a Yet to be Educated or a Foolish and Ignorant ?

( And you're all wrong ! "In this world there's two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig." )

[Bloodshadow]

One question. In order for our card ideas to be approved, does it have to have original art? From what I understand, those "approved cards" are candidates to become real cards; but if that is the case, then Zanz will not be able to use any image we find on the internet. Do those approved cards have to have original arts?

Now, if we can just bring vrt to the discussion. Double elitist power!

[Kamietsu]

To my knowledge, the Approved Card Ideas is just a section for card ideas that fit a set of rules, and in no way have a greater chance of making it to the actual game. This is where things get confusing for people, especially new members. Upon seeing that section, one might automatically think card ideas that have a very good chance of being implemented into the game lie in waiting. Even though that is not the case.

I enjoy this idea, however, I do not like the name of the area where the 'accepted' cards will be put.

And to what Kael said, I understand exactly where you are coming from, but the matter is, this isn't as big as a presidential election. This is a card game the benefits from it's players. If a group of 'elite' were picked to pick and choose what goes on about the game, that would nearly destroy it for one simple reason: The game is made for everyone, not for those specific 'elite' players. Those 'elite' players could easily pick and choose what sounds good and what would specifically help themselves, not necessarily what would be best for the greater good. I'm not saying any of these card ideas would even make it into the game, but if the Approved card sections were to be highly valued by Zanz and a place for him to get an idea of what the people want, it would be heavily skewed in the 'elitists' favor. The entirety of the people that play the game should choose what goes, or could possibly, go into the game, not what a small group of people think, no matter their experience. Because in the end of it all, what the majority of the people want is what matters, not the wants of a handful of people.

[Kael Hate]

This is the offering I made to try and help fix the mess that is the Card ideas Section.

There was already previous discussion and debate suggesting that a closed think tank for bringing popular ideas up to a more professional level would be bad for the community as not everyone could offer opinion. This was a counter to that situation to try and bring up the quality while still allowing the community an opinion.

I took some time to write up some ideas and little blurb. Here is what I have for the first starting area

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Quantum Mechanics

Quantum mechanics (QM) is a set of scientific principles describing the known behavior of energy and matter that predominate at the atomic and subatomic scales but for Elements the Game it describes the production and use of quanta, the primary resource for the game.

Under this section of Card Ideas we intend to gather, assess and evolve cards for use in Elements the Game that deal with Quanta production and maintenance or, the direct opposite.

Ideas offered, must be by members who have 50,000 points, be a Full Member or have a combination of 10,000 score and 50+ post count. Your idea may be sponsored by a member fitting this criteria if you do not meet the requirement. This is to prevent random flooding of ideas by persons not experienced in the game not to limit the ideas to elitists.

For each idea submitted, a review will take place.  The review will me made by those of the community who fulfil the experience requirement above. The review will be of the following areas:

Theme – Does the theme of the card fit the Elements environment?
Power Level – Is the effect appropriately powerful? This should be measured ignorant of the listed Cost and based more on how such an effect will act in the current environment.
Cost – Is the Card Appropriately costed for what it will do?
Mechanically Sound – Is the card appropriately complex for the Elements the Game Engine? Is the idea actually capable of working without generating unreasonable new code sequences? Does the card work within a reduced number of calculations? Is it understandable on the calculative level?
Likeable – Is the card appealing and or likeable, is it original when compared to other ideas in the archive

The areas will be weighted using the Acceptance scale from 0-5 to give a total score from 0-25.
0 – Utter Failure in this Area
1 – Requires a lot of work but not a total waste
2 – Nearly Plausible but Requires Work
3 – Plausible but Improvement possible
4 – Very Close to Perfect
5 – Perfect or Best Possible Result

If a card has an acceptance average of more than 15 by 5 or more reviewers, the card will be accepted and added to the archive as an accepted idea. A submitter or sponsor may not review his/her own idea.  Only reviews made after or updated after the last editing of an idea will count. If an idea recieves reviews after joining the archive that would bring it below an average of 15 it will be removed from the archive until it has again attained acceptance. This archive will be sticked at the top of this forum area and allow Zanz to quickly see ideas that have been accepted by the community and really what we want. Cards that perform the exact same functionality but within different elements may be submitted as one idea.

Reviewers should offer suggestions on how to bring a card idea up to acceptance. Anything that is of an abusive nature to the idea without detailed reason or alternative suggestion will be culled from the topic. The reason for this area is to have productive discussion.

Submission Criteria/Template

*******************************************************************************
 Name         :  "Cardname | Upgraded Card Name"
 Card Element :  "Element of the Card"
 Idea by      :  "Designer and Sponsor for Designer if required"

 Level        : Basic
 Summon Cost  :  "Cost and Element"
 Type D|L     :  "Creatures Damage and Life, or Artifact, Pillar, Shield, Weapon, Spell"
 Text         :  "The Text to appear on the card"
 Art          :  "Description of the art or a link to your original art that zanz may use"
 
 Level        : Upgraded
 Summon Cost  :  "Cost and Element"
 Type D|L     :  "Creatures Damage and Life, or Artifact, Pillar, Shield, Weapon, Spell"
 Text         :  "The Text to appear on the card"
 Art          :  "Description of the art or a link to your original art that zanz may use"
 
 Notes        :  "Any notes to describe the working of the card. Any testing or environmmental notes you wish to add. This should include a quick description of idea direction and place in elements."
 
 Demo         :  "Production demo of the card using one of the Photoshop templates"
*******************************************************************************


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Feel free to pass it around to ScytherLol or anyone else you think we need input from.

Hack at it if you think anything needs changing.

To make this work we would need a Sub area in Card Ideas called Quantum Mechanics. A moderator capable of moving items into and out of the section as apropriate and a Sticky Post at the top of the section only I or moderators can gain access to where I can collect the accepted Ideas and everyone can come and look but no-one else can post to. Someone to add up the reviews (I submit myself for this role). Some future card areas such as "Elemental Biology" for creature ideas, "Elemental Magic" for spells, "Elemental Artifacts" for permanents, "Resources at Hand" for Card advantage mechanics.

Ummm. Then some good ideas to fill it.

Can't think of anything else just yet.



Kael...

[Kamietsu]

Terrible idea and just overly complicated for something that can be just so simple (how SG has decided to set it up). Experience in this game does not warrant good card ideas. A good card idea could come from any mind at any time. Limiting those who can even post an idea breaks down part of the point of this forum.

Plus, the whole idea of even including anything about Quantum Mechanics is completely irrelevant. Elements has very little to do with Quantum Mechanics at all, it just shares the use of the word Quantum.

The template though is nice, but how SG has set things up is better. An image is always more fun and warrants more input than a bunch of text. And having both an image and a wall of text is sort of redundant.

[Kael Hate]

Kael, you seem to carry this elitist attitude all over the forums. You just keep digging deeper and deeper...

I'm glad SG decided to go another route. Otherwise, I may have been one of the "newbs" that didn't have any say-so in anything. Don't forget that some new people aren't necessarily children, or new to the TCG scene.

I am an elitist and a Perfectionist. I believe peoples and communities should evolve and grow and become more knowledgable as a whole. I get disgusted when I see the propagation of bad habits and bad discipline.

I don't want to stifle creative ideas or views on anything that anyone has to say. I want everyone to grow into a mature intelligent productive community which can learn and develop from the collective in a disciplined manner free from the immature and foolish.



In the "Make this card" competition you only recieved 3 votes. Do you think that if you were offered help by the collective that this could excel? At the time you had no chance because the group thought something else was better so your idea from a point of vote was declined. My idea is to allow those of the more experienced part of the collective evaluate your idea solely as it is. If it has a failing offer a way to fix it and make it pro so it is at a standard Zanz can see and take to the game if he wants. Again with Malevolance/ Malice, I think the idea you offered was quite sound but again because of voting it ment nothing to the group.

[Kael Hate]

Terrible idea and just overly complicated for something that can be just so simple (how SG has decided to set it up). Experience in this game does not warrant good card ideas. A good card idea could come from any mind at any time. Limiting those who can even post an idea breaks down part of the point of this forum.

Plus, the whole idea of even including anything about Quantum Mechanics is completely irrelevant. Elements has very little to do with Quantum Mechanics at all, it just shares the use of the word Quantum.

The template though is nice, but how SG has set things up is better. An image is always more fun and warrants more input than a bunch of text. And having both an image and a wall of text is sort of redundant.

Did you even read the post?

Did not in anyway limit anyones ability to post an idea. Just that a member of the appropriate rank has to put it forth for acceptance. This is to stop the new forum members constantly copying ideas directly from other games and shoving them straight in for acceptance.

Experience does not make you great at creating ideas but it makes you great at understanding how a said idea affects the environment to which it will be presented.

Quanta is the resource used in the game and Mechanics are the production and use of said quanta. It is a witty name for a particular group of cards including things like pillars and alternate quanta producers.

A card idea is more than an image. There is detail to how a card works in the finite and this cannot be included on teh card. Look at Adrenaline. Tell me you understand all the complexities of Adrenaline by simply looking at the card image.

[Kamietsu]

Kael, you seem to carry this elitist attitude all over the forums. You just keep digging deeper and deeper...

I'm glad SG decided to go another route. Otherwise, I may have been one of the "newbs" that didn't have any say-so in anything. Don't forget that some new people aren't necessarily children, or new to the TCG scene.

I am an elitist and a Perfectionist. I believe peoples and communities should evolve and grow and become more knowledgable as a whole. I get disgusted when I see the propagation of bad habits and bad discipline.

I don't want to stifle creative ideas or views on anything that anyone has to say. I want everyone to grow into a mature intelligent productive community which can learn and develop from the collective in a disciplined manner free from the immature and foolish.



In the "Make this card" competition you only recieved 3 votes. Do you think that if you were offered help by the collective that this could excel? At the time you had no chance because the group thought something else was better so your idea from a point of vote was declined. My idea is to allow those of the more experienced part of the collective evaluate your idea solely as it is. If it has a failing offer a way to fix it and make it pro so it is at a standard Zanz can see and take to the game if he wants. Again with Malevolance/ Malice, I think the idea you offered was quite sound but again because of voting it ment nothing to the group.

It's attitudes like that that help destroy a forum. No one cares for people who think they are better or more superior to those around them. Learn to take a loss because I seriously doubt you will win this. Your idea is logical, to a point, but after that point it just becomes ridiculous and prevents the community to grow for the common good and instead grow for a small selected group. That's not how a forum thrives and prospers. SG is promoting equality among it's members which is how it should be. It's attitudes like that which made, and still make living as a minority a living hell some places. Because the majority in the area feel they are better than them. I would rather not have segregation in Elements. We are all equal gamers, everyone will win, everyone will lose. A newbie could beat you, or PuppyChow, or Jmizzle7, or anyone.

After card ideas are limited only to the 'experienced' what next? Only Full Members can participate in a tournament or an event or competition? Only people with upgraded cards can comment in the Card sections? Why simply stop at Card Ideas? If everyone can't have a fair say in theirs and others opinions, why not use that tactic everywhere on the forum?

Terrible idea and just overly complicated for something that can be just so simple (how SG has decided to set it up). Experience in this game does not warrant good card ideas. A good card idea could come from any mind at any time. Limiting those who can even post an idea breaks down part of the point of this forum.

Plus, the whole idea of even including anything about Quantum Mechanics is completely irrelevant. Elements has very little to do with Quantum Mechanics at all, it just shares the use of the word Quantum.

The template though is nice, but how SG has set things up is better. An image is always more fun and warrants more input than a bunch of text. And having both an image and a wall of text is sort of redundant.

Did you even read the post?

Did not in anyway limit anyones ability to post an idea. Just that a member of the appropriate rank has to put it forth for acceptance. This is to stop the new forum members constantly copying ideas directly from other games and shoving them straight in for acceptance.

Experience does not make you great at creating ideas but it makes you great at understanding how a said idea affects the environment to which it will be presented.

Quanta is the resource used in the game and Mechanics are the production and use of said quanta. It is a witty name for a particular group of cards including things like pillars and alternate quanta producers.

A card idea is more than an image. There is detail to how a card works in the finite and this cannot be included on teh card. Look at Adrenaline. Tell me you understand all the complexities of Adrenaline by simply looking at the card image.

I apologize for the last point you made. I had included that specifically, but I wrote other things which I felt didn't need to be said and erased too much. You are right about that, I did mean to include that the only extra text a card would need would be an explanation of the ability if it was a little confusing or too complex to fully state on the card. That was my own fault.

As about the limitation of people posting an idea, how unsatisfying is it to have someone else have to put forth an idea for you? That person could simply steal the idea and the lower scored/post player would be out of luck. There is no real way to show it was actually their idea instead unless it was original art that was used for the card art, and that doesn't happen too often.

And I for one do not think the name for your specific topic is witty at all. It feels much more like you are trying to present something irrelevant to the game more so than something witty.

[Kael Hate]

SG is promoting equality among it's members which is how it should be. It's attitudes like that which made, and still make living as a minority a living hell some places. Because the majority in the area feel they are better than them. I would rather not have segregation in Elements. We are all equal gamers, everyone will win, everyone will lose. A newbie could beat you, or PuppyChow, or Jmizzle7, or anyone.

Equality between members where you have to earn the right to have an Avatar, mark ratings on posts, set Karma and where various members have specific title such as "Master of Fire"

After card ideas are limited only to the 'experienced' what next? Only Full Members can participate in a tournament or an event or competition? Only people with upgraded cards can comment in the Card sections? Why simply stop at Card Ideas? If everyone can't have a fair say in theirs and others opinions, why not use that tactic everywhere on the forum?

Please read the post again.
Ideas are not limited to the experienced.
It is the experienced who evaluate and accept an idea.

If I was a New guy and had a great idea and posted it in the ideas section I would expect that if it is as good as I thought that you or another senior member would bring it forth for acceptance. If you don't then I have to earn the experience to show that my idea has character and worht and put it forward for acceptance myself.

As about the limitation of people posting an idea, how unsatisfying is it to have someone else have to put forth an idea for you? That person could simply steal the idea and the lower scored/post player would be out of luck. There is no real way to show it was actually their idea instead unless it was original art that was used for the card art, and that doesn't happen too often.

Please see above. The idea belongs to the person who posted it. It just needs to be accepted by those of experience. If New guy A posts an idea and it is actually good, I would go out of my way to push his idea into the submission group for acceptance where the experienced can evaluate and say that is good or bad and offer an experienced review.

And I for one do not think the name for your specific topic is witty at all. It feels much more like you are trying to present something irrelevant to the game more so than something witty.

Thats fine. Wit like sarcasm is not enjoyed by all. We can call the section "Cards that Produce and manipulate Quanta"
(Oddly ScaredGirl said she liked the witty Card Area titles.)

[Kamietsu]

After card ideas are limited only to the 'experienced' what next? Only Full Members can participate in a tournament or an event or competition? Only people with upgraded cards can comment in the Card sections? Why simply stop at Card Ideas? If everyone can't have a fair say in theirs and others opinions, why not use that tactic everywhere on the forum?

Please read the post again.
Ideas are not limited to the experienced.
It is the experienced who evaluate and accept an idea.

There is very little difference between that and what I said. It still brings in complete bias as your idea has to appeal to those experienced players to be accepted, and not necessarily an idea that benefits the game itself. Biased and just over complicated.

The whole system you proposed is over complicated, which would turn a lot of people off from even bothering to submit, or attempt to submit their idea. Everything would rule in favor of the experienced players, when most of the experienced players don't even participate at the forum. We only hold a handful of the experienced players, and hell, someone could be out there right now with a legit million point score. They just don't play PvP or care to submit their score in the highscores area. And your idea for the 50,000 score in game, or even 10,000 score in game does nothing at all for experience. They could simply have played over and over low level opponents until they got such a score. I had a 10,000 score before I even had a single upgraded card, simply because my deck structure was bad and I was only playing against level 2s and occasionally a level 3. Score means nothing in terms of experience, just how long you've played for the most part. I know a few players with a low score who are easily more experienced than I am, and with more upgraded cards than me now.

You, nor I, nor anyone else here can judge whether someone is experienced or not. None of us would probably even know people like PuppyChow, Jmizzle7 or Cokeandaspirin if it weren't for this forum and chat if it weren't for their high level of activity. They are popular and as such, seen as experienced. I am pretty well known in this community as well, and how I carry myself, people would think I am very experienced. But in truth, I have around 40 upgraded cards, a score of only 20,000, and almost 2000 total duels, wins around 800 while losses at around 700. Looking at that, I don't seem experienced at all, and yet I know more about the game, how it works, what cards work well together, than a very large percentage of the people on this forum.

There is no standard for who is experienced and who isn't. And any vote on to select who the experienced players are would be biased by how well known they are in the forum. You seem to be pretty well known now, and I wouldn't want your opinion of my card to be a deciding factor to whether my card is accepted into a higher level card idea section. I would want your opinion on my card, just as I would want everyone elses opinion on my card so I can known what people think, how they think it should be changed to either be less powered, more powered, etc. Experienced players does not mean that they are good at card ideas. Generally, the majority would be, but if it has to be elitist about things, I would only want Zanz to judge my card then, as his is the only real opinion that actually matters about card ideas.



Edit: And on that note, I will respectively stop before things get heated any further.

[Kael Hate]

I feel strongly for this game and I wish it to grow in a positive way.
If I didn't care I'd go write another boardgame or cardgame.

The only way I would back down and settle for the open amateur spree is if Zanz came down here and posted saying he doesn't care for refined ideas. In the case that he did I'd probably quit the game and the forum because a Designer who does not care for the ideas which are offered either doesn't care about his game or is going to do it his own way regardless.

[acelink]

I understand the downfalls of the current system and understand how yours works. I like your system.  It appears to be more 'fair' but it is overly complicated for trying to achieve a simple idea--create a master thread with all card ideas.

Kael you have a point with the card competition.  There are flaws with any system.  The 'best card' in a competition may not get the most votes for a variety of reasons.  (I am flustered with how the weapons one turned out.  Scalpel has some major flaws in it but it persevered via advertisement, voter bias & etc)

Realize that these forums, competitions and everything else is to keep the community active.  It is not about who wins or loses.  People enjoy participating and the goal is to get more people into the Elements community. There is no point in having strict rules/guidelines or excess amounts of text for something so simple.  WALLS OF TEXT SCARE PEOPLE AWAY, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO RULES.

Look at: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?action=stats

We have an average of 75 people online per day.  25 of those people are registering and logging in for the first time.  If our community was substantially bigger, I would agree more with you Kael.  But as it stands now, our community is not big enough to implement a more puissantly system. (yes puissantly is a word--it means strong/powerful/mighty).