Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section

[pepokish]

I'm tentative to post here, as I try to avoid discussions like these.  I have trouble formulating ideas a lot of the time, and that can lead to a lot of misunderstanding.  But a thought occured to me, and I wanted to point it out.

Kael Hate, please correct me if I am completely misunderstanding you, as this is honestly just an innocent question; have you considered the fact that under the rule of your proposed new system, you would not actually be able to have this very discussion with Scaredgirl?  Or are you merely assuming that you would in fact be one of the "elite" members, and your opinion would still matter?

Personally, I don't think recognition in the forum should weigh in when members propose new ideas.  Great ideas do not always come from great people.

[Kael Hate]

Kael Hate, please correct me if I am completely misunderstanding you, as this is honestly just an innocent question; have you considered the fact that under the rule of your proposed new system, you would not actually be able to have this very discussion with Scaredgirl?  Or are you merely assuming that you would in fact be one of the "elite" members, and your opinion would still matter?

Personally, I don't think recognition in the forum should weigh in when members propose new ideas.  Great ideas do not always come from great people.

Under my proposition there is no censorship. Regardless of your rank or skill you can offer opinion to any idea. It is that only the eschelon of those deemed most experienced would be the accepting party. I would consider myself a member of this by default as I am a full member and I have over 60,000 score. I'm sure there are those that have a lot more but at the moment I have more experience than that which is required to be the Master of an element. If it was decided that only masters could make the acceptance I would deign to that decision because it will keep the inexperienced and foolish from taking great ideas that could work in the game and turning it into the faecal heap the current cards ideas section seems to be.

[pepokish]

It is that only the eschelon of those deemed most experienced would be the accepting party.

That's sort of my point, though -- and that's the paradox of it all.

You're fighting so hard for your idea to be accepted, but Scaredgirl doesn't like it.  Can't you see the comparison?  You're upset because one person doesn't like your idea, and therefore it will probably never be implemented.  You're being crushed, essentially, by the foundation of your own idea.  I guess it's mostly ironic, and probably irrelevant to the discussion. 

I just thought I'd point it out to you, perhaps give you something to consider from the "little guy's" point of view.  (:

[Kael Hate]

It is that only the eschelon of those deemed most experienced would be the accepting party.

That's sort of my point, though -- and that's the paradox of it all.

You're fighting so hard for your idea to be accepted, but Scaredgirl doesn't like it.  Can't you see the comparison?  You're upset because one person doesn't like your idea, and therefore it will probably never be implemented.  You're being crushed, essentially, by the foundation of your own idea.  I guess it's mostly ironic, and probably irrelevant to the discussion. 

I just thought I'd point it out to you, perhaps give you something to consider from the "little guy's" point of view.  (:

I enjoyed your artwork that you did for the Rustler. I assume you enjoyed the adulation and felt worth in what you accomplished. What if now any person could post any artwork they so choose and regardless of its relevance to elements was accepted simply because the inexperienced in the community thought it looked pretty. Would the value of you art be so great now? An idea that is accepted by those with experience and knowledge in what they purvey is worth more than the opinion of the mass.

If I was evaluating seatbelts for a car, the best opinion comes from those that understand how a seatbelt works and what the seatbelt does not every other random joe. I have no experience in seatbelt design but I could put forward an idea that could be taken on by those who know of seatbelts or I could be become educated and show that I have experience in seatbelts, then when my idea goes forward and is accepted by those who know what they are talking about the idea has value. If I share the idea with those at the pub and they all say the idea is great it doesn't mean much at all.

[pepokish]

I enjoyed your artwork that you did for the Rustler. I assume you enjoyed the adulation and felt worth in what you accomplished. What if now any person could post any artwork they so choose and regardless of its relevance to elements was accepted simply because the inexperienced in the community thought it looked pretty. Would the value of you art be so great now? An idea that is accepted by those with experience and knowledge in what they purvey is worth more than the opinion of the mass.

Yes, the value of my art would be just as "great" to me.  For the sake of argument, let's assume that I do not like this other person's art, and consider it inferior to mine (though this would probably not be the case whatsoever, mind you).  Yet, I would still not be upset by this situation.  If the general consensus was that the art looked "pretty", then it should very well be implemented into the game (assuming Zanz likes it himself, of course), because this game depends greatly on the opinions of its general users.  I could care less what the art critics say -- this game doesn't depend on the support of art critics.  And aside from that, I don't mind sharing the limelight -- in fact, I'm a little afraid of it. 

I apologize sincerely, but I'm going to leave it at that, because I'm really too tired to continue on.  We simply have differing opinions, and I've already said what I originally wanted to say.  I want to make sure it's clear that I don't consider your opinion to be inferior or wrong, I simply have different ideas about things.

Thanks for keeping such a mature, calm attitude -- I really appreciate it.  (:

[Scaredgirl]

Kael Hate everything you say implies that you divide people in two groups:

1. Smart people "with experience and knowledge"
2. Drooling idiots who don't know what idea is good and what is bad

You naturally belong to that first group, while huge majority of our community belongs to the second group.

Are you saying 90% of our forum users are incapable of making any kind of intelligent decision regarding card ideas and should therefore be stripped off their right to vote?

That's exactly the kind of elitist attitude that makes newbies leave online communities.

[Kael Hate]

Thanks for keeping such a mature, calm attitude -- I really appreciate it.  (:

There is no sense in getting angry. I agree that putting forward your opinion is the logical and sensible way to do things. I believe I am right based on my experience so I offer evidence of this experience to try and sway you to my view. If your experience said the contrary I would expect you'd show me that so I could re-evaluate my situation if need be.

I apreciate your responses with how you feel and see the situation. Mature discussion is better than a rage/quit or cowering away from the issue.

Maybe I can educate enough to try and change the workings but as in real life if those with the power choose not to acknowledge, then you cannot change the situation without a power of your own.

I am starting to feel like a member of a group of survivors who have crashed in the outback. I, amongst a group of inexperienced know where north is, how to aquire water and what best to do to survive but the rest of the group not knowing any better wish to go their own way and wander out into the desert. Do I try and convince the party I know what I am talking about and that they should follow my lead or do I leave them to wander off and suffer and maybe die under their own terms?

[Kael Hate]

Kael Hate everything you say implies that you divide people in two groups:

1. Smart people "with experience and knowledge"
2. Drooling idiots who don't know what idea is good and what is bad

You naturally belong to that first group, while huge majority of our community belongs to the second group.

Are you saying 90% of our forum users are incapable of making any kind of intelligent decision regarding card ideas and should therefore be stripped off their right to vote?

That's exactly the kind of elitist attitude that makes newbies leave online communities.

I divide people into 3 groups.

1. The Educated
2. The Yet to be Educated
3. The Foolish and Ignorant

I hope that there is a portion of the community that is the educated when it comes to card design. Persons who have experience in the game to understand what works, what doesn't and why it is so.

I hope that those who aren't of the 1st group would strive to learn these things and become part of that group and until they have attained that level would not taint the good work they could offer by making inexperienced mistakes or decisions.

I hope those that are foolish and ignorant of the game mechanics would stay away and keep their influence from destroying the good work that could be obtained. Persons that fall into this category are no good for online communities in anyway. Its like inviting drug dealers to sell in your neighbourhood.

People who are good for a community are those that start in group 2 and strive to be in group 1 regardless of the topic. They all wish to be supportive and take effort to earn that place. If everyone is of equal value to the community why have tiers for Avatar usage and karma voting? Why doesn't joe new guy have the right to mark someone karmawise? Apparently he has to earn it, but its not ok to request that someone earn the right to qualify what an acceptable card idea is?

[acelink]

The intent is to create a "master" thread that lists of all cards.  But really... how can you create a master thread when card ideas are constantly being revised and changed?  It requires constant editing and obscene amounts of forum lurking.  Creating a master thread for all card ideas is not practical.

This idea of having "approved card ideas" is to take the well made/finished cards and present them in an organized fashion, not to squelch the majority.

Having someone review cards and 'approve' cards (cards near 'completion' or 'completed'), allows for a master thread to be created and more discussion on the final product.   


I like the idea of some filtering.  I think Kael Hate is focusing too much on the "Approved Card Idea" as an absolute censor.  I wouldn't think of this as "censor" but rather a filtration system.  And I doubt all cards outside of the "approved" section will be discarded.  They will still have their own thread but these "approved cards" will emphasize more on well thought out cards that are more or less finished and each discussion thread will start out in a uniform layout.  (e.g Card->Concept->Applications->Pro/Con(Good/Bad)->Creators Final Thoughts)

I see it as:
Section: Card Ideas (All card ideas)
Sub-Section: Finalized/Approved (Those cards that are 'Recognized'.  Includes HoF)


Another Rule should be introduced... One card per thread.  It gets rather hectic when people post multiple card ideas in one thread.  The discussion gets rambled.  The focus should be one card at a time, not all at once.  Focusing on balancing multiple cards at a time is hard... People stop thinking about the individual card and more about the set-- WHICH IS BAD.  Each card is unique and should be thought of as a standalone.

P.S: I'm late to class. WHOOPS... GRRR

[Scaredgirl]

Another Rule should be introduced... One card per thread.  It gets rather hectic when people post multiple card ideas in one thread.  The discussion gets rambled.  The focus should be one card at a time, not all at once.  Focusing on balancing multiple cards at a time is hard... People stop thinking about the individual card and more about the set-- WHICH IS BAD.  Each card is unique and should be thought of as a standalone.

Yep. One card per thread is one of the requirements for getting your card in the "Approved Card Ideas" list.

It goes like this:

A visitor will first go to the "Approved Card Ideas" section, and if he finds something he likes, he can just click the card and be taken to a discussion thread of that particular card. It's a similar system we have been using with card idea competitions.

Card ideas will be approved once they meet all the requirements. This will happen by collaboration between the card designer, Card Curator, and the rest of the Elements community. Once the card is "ready", it's gets approved.

[Astaroth]

Kael, you seem to carry this elitist attitude all over the forums. You just keep digging deeper and deeper...

I'm glad SG decided to go another route. Otherwise, I may have been one of the "newbs" that didn't have any say-so in anything. Don't forget that some new people aren't necessarily children, or new to the TCG scene.

[icybraker]

We interrupt this bickering to bring you an urgent message!

No not really. Anyways, I do believe that this idea is quite good. It will help with organization greatly; also, this makes a great complement to Planplan's image generator.