Each element's thing

[The_Mormegil]

You missed an important half of my claim. Additionally you are confusing theme with mechanical theme on life and entropy. A mechanical theme would still remain if the cards were viewed at just the mechanical level ignoring names, and images. Life has a theme of vitality. It has a mechanical theme of growth. Entropy has a theme of entropy. That is not a mechanical theme. Entropy has a biased luck mechanical theme but the rest of Entropy is not linked into a mechanical theme.

Air does not have sufficient strategic support for Airborne (one of its primary mechanical themes)
Gravity's inevitable theme has sufficient support in the area it affects. Extending it to other aspects like resource gathering, defenses against skills, permanents and spells would be ideal.
Water does indeed have a mechanical theme of duo. I dislike this theme but I do not need to like it for it to be good or improved. Each synergy could use some more support and more generic synergy cards that would work for a variety of elements (or even multiple elements) would be wise.

Ok, so you basically agree that each element has a theme, that at least some cards on every element - although maybe not enough cards on some elements - refer to or enhance that theme, and that almost all cards on every element concur to that element's theme? Basically, you just claimed that there is no sufficient mechanical support for some themes.

While I disagree on Life and Entropy remarks (Entropy's randomness and Life's vitality are limited in scope maybe but they are represented by at least some cards. Mainly Mutations and Discord for entropy and Empathic Bond and Adrenaline for Life) I can agree on giving some elements more cards that focus on their theme. This does not solve the issue of what would these cards need to do, however...

[OldTrees]

@The Mormegil
Not quite but close enough. The remaining difference is rather trivial and not applicable in this case.

You know I find incompleteness (as I define it) to be a problem worth solving. Any solution would need to fit the element's theme. Adding more cards that fit in an element's primary mechanical themes that also help solve the problem would be ideal.

[RRQJ]

I was under the impression that we were talking about monos.  mono-light does not have cc.  if we're talking about duos, then life should be fine as well.  all life needs to do is pack some explosions.

No. Try it, if you wish, but... just no.

Even with Explosions Life is terribly weak to CC. It has no alternative damage except Scorpions' poison - which is creature-based. CC rushes can outspeed it, its best shield is very slow and requires constant healing to work (something only has in-element), the other shield is NOT efficient (Emerald costs 5, upped Mirror costs 2, Jade costs 7, PERMAFROST costs 7). Its creatures are good but you are either sacrificing lots of card space for good cheap creatures or you are basing yourself on very expensive hard-hitters. Life cannot answer quanta denial effectively as its novabow and its immorush are definitely lacking and even with Sanctuary support, its stalls are pretty weak compared to others because hey, Life has NO FORM OF CONTROL WHATSOEVER. Except its shield, which is easily dispatched, slow, and needs lots of quanta to even play. Its rush is easy to defeat with shields, and even adding Explosions you are both slowing you down and reducing potential versatility (you need more quanta cards if you have an off-element mark, and that combined with the great number of cards needed for an effective life rush means you don't have space for anything else). Besides, immaterial shields like Hope, Protected Diamond or - ironically - Jade are still killing your damage. Your stalls are subpar and your rushes are strong but prone to abuse from control decks. If you try to avoid controld decks you can still die to shields, stalls or even just faster rushes (something almost every element can pull off if you dilute your life deck with off element anti-control cards). Even its Firestall isn't all that strong and has far more counters than Light's version.

If that's the case, then I don't see how the card idea mentioned in the OP will be of any help.  And much of what you said can be applied to light as well, which was my point.  The only difference would be the healing stall capability, but I personally don't think that elevates light significantly above life and the other 'weak' elements.

Sanctuary is protection from Denial (Quanta or Silence)
Reflective Shield is cost effective for reflecting spell damage
Light has immaterial offensive options thus avoiding CC/PC.
Light can use Hope to block small and large creatures.

Light is still has no defense against skills (creature or permanent).

sactuary is a great card, but it doesn't make you win; it makes you not lose.  reflective shield may be nice, but it doesn't really address to most common form of damage - creatures.  Hope isn't a great solution to that either since it requires several other cards for maximum benefit.  And those cards happen to be creatures, which are easily cc'd or too slow to get out.  I did forget about the weapon.

So basically other than morning star, most of light's cards is about "not losing" instead of "winning."  If everyone's fine with that, then I've got nothing more to say, but I would rather have the ability to "win".  (morning star doesn't cut it for me due to consistency issues and deck restriction from the necessary flying weapons)

Edit:

Maybe this might make my stance more clear:
I don't like the fact that light is essentially about "come at me, bro. lets see if you have the stuff to beat me" instead of "let's duel."  Besides creature damage and deckout possibilities, the opponent has nothing else to worry about.  Creature damage is usually slow enough that the opponent can handle effectively (in other words, there's usually not much pressure for them on this front).  So its down to seeing if the opponent packed the tools needed to win.

If this is perfectly fine, then everything I've said was from personal preference, and you can go ahead and ignore it.

[Ekki]

I was under the impression that we were talking about monos.  mono-light does not have cc.  if we're talking about duos, then life should be fine as well.  all life needs to do is pack some explosions.

No. Try it, if you wish, but... just no.

Even with Explosions Life is terribly weak to CC. It has no alternative damage except Scorpions' poison - which is creature-based. CC rushes can outspeed it, its best shield is very slow and requires constant healing to work (something only has in-element), the other shield is NOT efficient (Emerald costs 5, upped Mirror costs 2, Jade costs 7, PERMAFROST costs 7). Its creatures are good but you are either sacrificing lots of card space for good cheap creatures or you are basing yourself on very expensive hard-hitters. Life cannot answer quanta denial effectively as its novabow and its immorush are definitely lacking and even with Sanctuary support, its stalls are pretty weak compared to others because hey, Life has NO FORM OF CONTROL WHATSOEVER. Except its shield, which is easily dispatched, slow, and needs lots of quanta to even play. Its rush is easy to defeat with shields, and even adding Explosions you are both slowing you down and reducing potential versatility (you need more quanta cards if you have an off-element mark, and that combined with the great number of cards needed for an effective life rush means you don't have space for anything else). Besides, immaterial shields like Hope, Protected Diamond or - ironically - Jade are still killing your damage. Your stalls are subpar and your rushes are strong but prone to abuse from control decks. If you try to avoid controld decks you can still die to shields, stalls or even just faster rushes (something almost every element can pull off if you dilute your life deck with off element anti-control cards). Even its Firestall isn't all that strong and has far more counters than Light's version.

If that's the case, then I don't see how the card idea mentioned in the OP will be of any help.  And much of what you said can be applied to light as well, which was my point.  The only difference would be the healing stall capability, but I personally don't think that elevates light significantly above life and the other 'weak' elements.

Sanctuary is protection from Denial (Quanta or Silence)
Reflective Shield is cost effective for reflecting spell damage
Light has immaterial offensive options thus avoiding CC/PC.
Light can use Hope to block small and large creatures.

Light is still has no defense against skills (creature or permanent).

sactuary is a great card, but it doesn't make you win; it makes you not lose.  reflective shield may be nice, but it doesn't really address to most common form of damage - creatures.  Hope isn't a great solution to that either since it requires several other cards for maximum benefit.  And those cards happen to be creatures, which are easily cc'd or too slow to get out.  I did forget about the weapon.

So basically other than morning star, most of light's cards is about "not losing" instead of "winning."  If everyone's fine with that, then I've got nothing more to say, but I would rather have the ability to "win".  (morning star doesn't cut it for me due to consistency issues and deck restriction from the necessary flying weapons)

I could say that "not losing" is a way of winning if you want to deckout your opponent. Also, part of that stalling is the idea of actually attacking while you "not lose", as to win. But whatever, you forgot crusader, pegasus' + dive (I know, duo, but it's sooo cool anyways), Hope actually needs creatures, so that creatures attack, and if you add luciferine to the combo, you got a pretty badass shield... sure, it's a lots-of-cards-combo, but as you said, light is good at "not losing"

[Glitch]

Alright.  So lets start from scratch.  (And if even this can't be balanced, we'll see how far the rabbit hole goes), what should each element's "thing" be.

Regardless of how effective it is.

   Immortality - Perfect as is.
   Airborne.  - IMO needs work.  Throw in more evasion.  Re-nerf fog's percentage, but have it also apply to spells targeting airborne creatures.
   Theivary/trickery- Pretty good, but not perfect.  It just needs a bit stronger late game.  Shadow Beast:  The enemy sees a TU.  You see a copy with 1 HP.
   Decay - Perfect as is.  I wouldn't say no to the tiniest of buffs to vulture.
   Burrow?  -  I like the half damage vs. double damage dichotomy, and it's close.  Tunnels:  Burrowed creatures get momentum.
   Chaos.  Randomness.  Luck.  This is probably the closest non-perfect element out there.  If it had some sort of reverting method to get the base creature out of a mutation, it'd be perfect.
   Destruction.  -  Disagree if you like, but this is the strongest element in the game.
   Inevitability.  Two fixes.  A QoL buff on charger so the momentum is an activated ability.  More gravity pull synergy.  Next, armaggio also pulls spells.  Soft protection
   Evolution -  Best synergies in the game.  Just stop nerfing it!  Adrenaline/devourers isn't OP!  SoR/mitosis is still slow!  Maybe SoR/rustler infinite mana is broken, but the duo was completely slaughtered!
   Ferocity - Rush creatures, and rush them fast.  Give it a spell like cremation, and watch it dominate like it should.
   Give it a pump spell.  Holy life deals 2 per 10, or heals 2 per ten.  It's basically a worse version of drain life OH WAIT IT'S A PUMP SPELL IN LIGHT.
   Draw power - Give it a card that gets stronger with extra draws, and a card that supports rainbows
   Flexibility - A SoR clone didn't work, maybe make liquify a global effect?  All creature's active abilities are free?  OR!  Buff flooding so water creatures can use their abilities for free!


Just my ideas.

[Ekki]

  Burrow?  -  I like the half damage vs. double damage dichotomy, and it's close.  Tunnels:  Burrowed creatures get momentum.

Earth's thing is definetly protection. Burrow is just a way of protecting your creatures... It has the strongest shield (even though it's underused), and -by far- the strongest hp buffs (BB), not to mention that it's the only element that can have immortal permanents. I don't know how to fit EQ here, but it's not far away from the theme of stalls.
I think, as its thing is protection, it SHOULD be a really synergic element... More than what it is now (not synergic enough). That could also be an indirect buff to Gravity and other elements that need it. Synergy is something that matters, A LOT, when talking about balance...

[Glitch]

  Burrow?  -  I like the half damage vs. double damage dichotomy, and it's close.  Tunnels:  Burrowed creatures get momentum.

Earth's thing is definetly protection. Burrow is just a way of protecting your creatures... It has the strongest shield (even though it's underused), and -by far- the strongest hp buffs (BB), not to mention that it's the only element that can have immortal permanents. I don't know how to fit EQ here, but it's not far away from the theme of stalls.
I think, as its thing is protection, it SHOULD be a really synergic element... More than what it is now (not synergic enough). That could also be an indirect buff to Gravity and other elements that need it. Synergy is something that matters, A LOT, when talking about balance...

Hrm... then maybe it needs a damage card that synergizes with protection.  Maybe a card named avalanche that harms both yourself and your opponent?

[Ekki]

  Burrow?  -  I like the half damage vs. double damage dichotomy, and it's close.  Tunnels:  Burrowed creatures get momentum.

Earth's thing is definetly protection. Burrow is just a way of protecting your creatures... It has the strongest shield (even though it's underused), and -by far- the strongest hp buffs (BB), not to mention that it's the only element that can have immortal permanents. I don't know how to fit EQ here, but it's not far away from the theme of stalls.
I think, as its thing is protection, it SHOULD be a really synergic element... More than what it is now (not synergic enough). That could also be an indirect buff to Gravity and other elements that need it. Synergy is something that matters, A LOT, when talking about balance...

Hrm... then maybe it needs a damage card that synergizes with protection.  Maybe a card named avalanche that harms both yourself and your opponent?

As far as I see it, Earth doesn't need more damage, just more ways of making an advantage out of its protection, and the best way I see of it, is being more synergic. Mainly with the elements that already need a buff (like Gravity, Water, Life, etc), so you're giving Earth a reason to be, while buffing an element that needs it, so everybody wins 

[Glitch]

Then maybe heavy armor should also grant protection from 1 spell?  I'd definitely play mito-gemfinders if I could protect the gemfinder.

[OldTrees]

Alright.  So lets start from scratch.  (And if even this can't be balanced, we'll see how far the rabbit hole goes), what should each element's "thing" be.

Would it be better to split the thread into a few threads? That way the problems can be discussed and solutions suggested will stop getting lost.

While you are dealing with mechanical themes instead of general themes, would you like me to link the 12 general theme threads?

Current Mechanical Themes:
  Untouchable, Copying, Skill Control
  Airborne, Storms
  Steal, Trick
  Decay, Recycle
  Strength, Resilience
  Biased Luck, ???
  Destruction
  Order, Unstoppable
  Growth (fits everything but Jade and vanilla creatures)
  Negation (described above as "not lose")
  Card Manipulation
  Flexibility

[Glitch]

Alright.  So lets start from scratch.  (And if even this can't be balanced, we'll see how far the rabbit hole goes), what should each element's "thing" be.

Would it be better to split the thread into a few threads?

While you are dealing with mechanical themes instead of general themes, would you like me to link the 12 general theme threads?

errughhh sure it's been a while

[OldTrees]

Alright.  So lets start from scratch.  (And if even this can't be balanced, we'll see how far the rabbit hole goes), what should each element's "thing" be.

Would it be better to split the thread into a few threads?

While you are dealing with mechanical themes instead of general themes, would you like me to link the 12 general theme threads?

errughhh sure it's been a while

We are currently talking about what these elements should be able to do. Here are some links to what the community once thought (and might still think) the elements were (are).
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22158.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22149.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22130.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22161.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22164.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22136.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22197.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22323.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22478.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22153.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22045.0.html
  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22384.0.html