Water Clock | Clepsydra

[SnoWeb]

I love the Water / Time synergy. I think Frozen Hourglass obtains that in a more intresting way.

Frozen Hourglass | Frozen Hourglass (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29302.0.html) is the mere disguise of a time mechanic into a water card. Clepsydra carries a completelly new mechanics.

Why should this be a Water card? Liquid Time only suggests the term water, but can be easily changed. In fact, if you change the name of the ability to "Temporal Purification" it may very well be a light card.

A clepsydra is a water clock whereas the light clock is called sundial ...

The fact is, the card is not tied to Water by any mechanical theme.

The whole idea is to create one. I didn't want to use an already existing effect and artificially making it a water card. I wanted to a new card-draw alteration which would fit the thematic of the water clock. The water clock represent the flow of time. The "liquid time" ability modifies it. I think it fits.

I think this would fit Darkness or even Mono Time better.

Here again I don't know what fits better to a water clock than a  / duo. Concerning the effect only, I wanted to avoid a too easy abuse of nightmare with it. Being able to empty the hand on one side and to fill it on the other needs to be more complicated than a duo. That why the card cannot be either mono-time or / .

Also, this suffers the same problem as the old Dune Scorpion. It can easily "destroy" cards by pushing them to the bottom of the deck. The only difference towards discarding altogether is that in very long matches you're going to draw them again, which is easily avoided by playing a Clepsydra Rush (think of Time Mark Tsunami, or Toadfish/Ghosts).

It does not destroy the card, it moves it (alteration of the flow of time - remember). In game, you can prevent a draw, rewind a card, accelerate a draw, prevent a play or copy a card before it is played. i don't see how this effect is such a taboo.

If discarding is taboo as long as there is no Graveyard to manipulate, then this is a no-go too as long as we don't have deck manipulation à la Demonic Tutor.

I don't understand this.

(by the way, have you taken a look at Magnet Tracer, the Gravity permanent?)

Magnet Tracer | Magnet Tracer (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17614.msg239561#msg239561) has nothing to do with the present card - except maybe as being a counter. It is an excellent idea btw.

Thanks Morg for your interest for the card. Don't hesitate to detail your objections if I took your questions with the wrong end of the stick ...

Does anyone has an analysis about the possible use of the ability on the two players? Suggestion of a new wording:
: Liquid time - Send the upper card in the hand of the target player to the bottom of his deck.

Would it make the card too powerful or would it just render it less situational?

[The_Mormegil]

*snip*

The fact that it is a water clock is a consideration I did not make. However, to keep consistency towards sundial, then it might be better off as a Time permanent with a Water skill.

Also, regarding the Dune Scorpion argument. AFAIK, the old Dune Scorpion made the opponent discard. That was taken away because it effectively destroyed a card, no matter the type or cost or anything, and you couldn't retrieve it in any way. If you think of other CCGs, they all have a Graveyard, Cemetery, Warp Zone, Lost Zone, whatever. You have cards that say "take one of the cards in your Graveyard and take it back", for instance, or some similar things. The effect you propose is effectively the same as discarding in many cases - in fact, in the majority of cases, as not many players will ever have the time to draw the last card of their deck. So, you are introducing a discard mechanic, although hidden behind another wording. If the problem with discarding is that there is no way to retreive the lost card, then the problem with liquid time is that there is no effect similar to Magnet Tracer around to get the "lost" card back into your hand.

[Sevs]

This is an intresting card. soesnt seem like there would be that many uses. A possibly use i see is in a time bow or IGT when your hand is filled with card you dont want at the moment(ie: fractal or extra shield). This would also hurt any deck reliant on a combo and holding onto cards. I see this as having pretty limited use overall but a uniquely good mechanic none the less

[SnoWeb]

The fact that it is a water clock is a consideration I did not make. However, to keep consistency towards sundial, then it might be better off as a Time permanent with a Water skill.

It is a matter of taste, IMO. The difference with sundial is that you can use the ability more than once. It takes more water to play the card but after a while the cost in time becomes more important. I think it makes more sense this way for what the card does.

[...] If the problem with discarding is that there is no way to retreive the lost card, then the problem with liquid time is that there is no effect similar to Magnet Tracer around to get the "lost" card back into your hand.

I listened to (read) your argument fully and I now see your point. This is the reason why I modified the upped card to make it able to bring your cards back.

Card Rework - see here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29497.0.html)

What do you guys think, now? In particular what do you think about the cost?
Both up and unup are 4 + ability but I was considering to shift a bit the cost toward the repeated use and make it played faster => 3 + ability ... Suggestion and comment are welcome.

[The_Mormegil]

This way it seems much more intresting.
(minor nitpick a Curator would normally tell you: the text for Clepsydra's ability needs the symbol).

I think inverting unupped / upped would be better, because as it is unupped is stronger. Getting a card from the bottom of your deck is practically the same as drawing, after all... with the added benefit of potentially disrupting your opponent's draw (synergy with RT and Eternity) that's payed off from the two elements needed. Now, I think a better cost for both abilities would be , and I'd also keept the cost as it is. Reasoning: unupped Golden Hourglass costs , why should this "draw" cost less, since it has another possible application on top?

[Xenocidius]

This way it seems much more intresting.
(minor nitpick a Curator would normally tell you: the text for Clepsydra's ability needs the symbol).

I think inverting unupped / upped would be better, because as it is unupped is stronger. Getting a card from the bottom of your deck is practically the same as drawing, after all... with the added benefit of potentially disrupting your opponent's draw (synergy with RT and Eternity) that's payed off from the two elements needed. Now, I think a better cost for both abilities would be , and I'd also keept the cost as it is. Reasoning: unupped Golden Hourglass costs , why should this "draw" cost less, since it has another possible application on top?

Off-element abilities cost less.

[The_Mormegil]

Off-element abilities cost less.

That reduction has been accounted for in my reasoning, as explained.

[SnoWeb]

I did the change you (The Mormegil) suggested because they make sense.

NAME:	Water Clock	Clepsydra
ELEMENT:	Water	Water
COST:	4	4
TYPE:	Permanent	Permanent
TEXT:	: Time Flow Send the bottom card in the deck of the target player to his hand.	: Liquid time Send the first card in the hand of the target player to the bottom of his deck.

Use on self the unupgraded version is now similar to the unupgraded hourglass (except that it draws from the bottom of your deck with what it implies combined with rewind). The duo cost is justified by the ability to use it on the opponent and therefore to force his draw. The upgraded card is what is left from the original idea: The denial of the top card in your his hand when use on the opponent and the ability not to deck out when used on self. Both cards are countered by sanctuary for the use on the opponent.

submitted to crucible.