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Offline KuroaitouTopic starter

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509288#msg509288
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2012, 03:01:05 am »
On the seedling thing, if it's ability was a different element, it means it is basically directing what ability omliplant has if you play it through seedlling. So Kuroaitou has it right by having it  :life.

Thanks for getting the point. :) I figure that Seedling needs to be -unbiased- towards any type of quanta pool in order to allow the user flexibility in their mark (so as to not require it to bloom through a certain element and act as another Forest Spirit or whatever).

:air - Web may be 'weak', but it's the most thematically logical and practical out of all the other choices. Dive is NOT an option, because plants aren't airborne!

On another note, I changed the following abilities for :entropy (not as unique as Dead and Alive), :light (I feel bad for replacing Rustler, but this card is far more expensive), :earth (Simplicity purposes as OldTrees stated), and upped the cost for Devour and Deja Vu, considering their deadliness. Note that Deja Vu is actually pretty interesting with Omniplant; because Deja Vu will ALWAYS be reobtained even if the ability is 'removed', it's essentially a cheaper form of Mitosis but from a different element pool. And it grows exponentially because of that, which makes it incredibly strong with things like Adrenaline, Momentum, etc.

Also, Mitosis on the Omniplant for 1 :life is a bad idea, I went with the Seedling idea instead for a slightly upped cost similar to Pharaoh.

For what Taint does, Oldtrees; think of it as applying a part of Singularity's functions onto an enemy creature. Whenever they attack, they'll grant you random quanta (or should it be :darkness quanta?) equal to the amount of damage they deal. A reverse devourer, except dependent on the opponent.

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509291#msg509291
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2012, 03:11:41 am »
I like the new abilities, especially  :entropy's. It's now a reversed Fallen Elf!
I still think Burrow is UP though, as it only has 2 attack and already has quite high HP.
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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509322#msg509322
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2012, 04:31:32 am »
Web
You are correct that neither Dive nor Snipe is an option. However that does not imply Web is an option. A new Air ability is needed for this slot.

Devour
5|4 :life + Duo + Higher activation cost -2|3 attack = 5|3 :gravity for 7|9 hp  :gravity:Devour
Otyugh =  4|5 :gravity for 3|5 hp  :gravity:Devour
Still OP. Lower the hp?

Photosynthesis
You are correct that neither Heal nor Endow is an option. However that does not imply Photosynthesis is an option. A new Light ability is need for this slot.

Taint (target creature gives you  :rainbow equal to damage dealt)
Might be balanced.
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Offline rosutosefi

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509338#msg509338
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2012, 06:14:02 am »
You can also use :light :light: Holy Light instead.
Not so active.

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509343#msg509343
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2012, 06:43:16 am »
I like this idea, but I'm a bit confused by your statement regarding Adaptive not working with Mitosis, LS, etc.  Is this to say that Mitosis and the like are canceled by Adaptive?  Or vice versa?
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Offline KuroaitouTopic starter

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509355#msg509355
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2012, 08:36:06 am »
I like this idea, but I'm a bit confused by your statement regarding Adaptive not working with Mitosis, LS, etc.  Is this to say that Mitosis and the like are canceled by Adaptive?  Or vice versa?

Canceled; think of this scenario:

Player A plays an Omniplant. Because Player A has a Water mark, it gains 'Growth' at the end of the turn thanks to Adaptive. The following turn, if Player A uses Mitosis on Omniplant, regardless of whether Player A uses the Mitosis ability or not (given ample quanta), at the end of the turn, Adaptive checks to see what the player's mark is (which is still :water), and then gains 'Growth' again. This applies to all forms of lobotmization, so it's impossible to 'rewrite' Omniplant's ability with something else because of the passive skill Adaptive.

You can also use :light :light: Holy Light instead.

Giving it the ability to instant kill practically any :darkness or :death creature, heal yourself or any allied creature for 10 HP, or damage SoSa users on a whim is kind of ridiculous. Even with a :light :light cost. ^^;

You are correct that neither Dive nor Snipe is an option. However that does not imply Web is an option. A new Air ability is needed for this slot.

...

You are correct that neither Heal nor Endow is an option. However that does not imply Photosynthesis is an option. A new Light ability is need for this slot.

I'll lower the HP in a bit to 'nerf' the Devour part; it kind of sucks that both Air & Light are both shafted in this case, despite the synergy with those elements (Fireflies & FFQ, Healing permanents and spells, etc.), but I don't know if I should create new 'fake' abilities for the creature, since it already has a new active (Taint).

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509369#msg509369
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2012, 09:51:15 am »
I like this idea, but I'm a bit confused by your statement regarding Adaptive not working with Mitosis, LS, etc.  Is this to say that Mitosis and the like are canceled by Adaptive?  Or vice versa?

Canceled; think of this scenario:

Player A plays an Omniplant. Because Player A has a Water mark, it gains 'Growth' at the end of the turn thanks to Adaptive. The following turn, if Player A uses Mitosis on Omniplant, regardless of whether Player A uses the Mitosis ability or not (given ample quanta), at the end of the turn, Adaptive checks to see what the player's mark is (which is still :water), and then gains 'Growth' again. This applies to all forms of lobotmization, so it's impossible to 'rewrite' Omniplant's ability with something else because of the passive skill Adaptive.
Okay that's how I understood it to be but wanted to verify before commenting further.

It's because of that interaction that I think some of these abilities have the potential to be more useful than if the ability modifiers such as LS simply had no effect.  For instance, this card's somewhat high HP amount makes it a better target for Mitosis which in turn makes a Web stall with Wings and Bonds more viable, even if the Mitosis effect will only last for a single turn.  But on the other hand I think that also makes some ability options too strong.  I may as well list my thoughts on each below.

:aether - I like this choice.  It's a counter to some CC and can also act as a softer form of CC for :life as well.
:air - I agree this one isn't too strong, even with the possibility of a Web stall as I described above.  However, while it doesn't seem logical that a plant could have an airborne-related ability, I think that given the fantasy nature of the game we're playing we can overlook that conclusion on the grounds that Omniplant takes on the nature of its :air mark and receives the ability to fly, hover, levitate, etc.  Furthermore, applying that type of logic here also means that some other ability choices don't make much sense, such as a plant that sets itself on fire.  Granting it Dive or Snipe wouldn't be bad, with an added bonus of it gaining Airborne status if needed.
:darkness - I'm not too sure about this one.  It seems most useful in conjunction with Shards or when expecting Discord to be used against you.  I would like to say that it's good for countering Devs as well, but with 0 attack they won't be triggering this ability on their own anyways, making that somewhat situational.  On the other hand it creates a weakness to BH.
:death - I like this one, especially in light of Mitosis being usable for one turn for a nice combo.
:earth - I'm not a fan of the Burrow ability, not with these stats at least.  About the only use for such an ability I can find is to use Mitosis on one, granting yourself at most 12 invulnerable Omniplants to power a Feral Bond you already have in play.  If you were to give it an ability such as Stone Form or possibly even Heavy Armor (single use) then you'd keep most of the invulnerability while allowing a few other combos such as Adrenaline, Rage Potion, etc. to be more viable.  But then again I don't think it'd be possible for Adaptive to recognize that it can't give that ability back to the creature after its first use since technically speaking it'd be without an active ability then...hmm.
:entropy - The :entropy / :life Mutation synergy already exists with Fallen Elf so I personally find this one a bit redundant.  But then again I don't really see much of an alternative for it with what :entropy currently has to offer.
:fire - Good ability.  Gives it an offensive capability that's not destructive.
:gravity - Yeah, the current HP + Devour is a bit too much.  However, I would hate to see an HP decrease because it would make it yet another of Life's creatures that's not fond of CC in the slightest.
:life - Mitosis would be broken if the cost were kept at 2 :life.  However, it probably wouldn't be if it were to cost the same amount as the creature's playing cost.  Either way, I think the Sapling ability is fine as is; it's an effective, but not too fast or powerful method of creature spam.
:light - I dislike Photosynthesis here.  It makes Rustler even more useless outside of the occasional FFQ/miscellaneous combos, even if the playing cost of this card is higher for the simple reason that it's significantly more durable.  If Holy Light seems too OP as a continuous ability then it might be possible to make it a one-time use, although we run into the issues with single-use abilities again like with Stone Form/Heavy Armor.  Heal's too weak, Luciferin doesn't seem right...about the only remaining abilities would be Divine Shield (weak, but somewhat useful) or Sanctuary (possibly without the HP regeneration and just the protection status).  Bioluminescence also might work, though I'm having a hard time thinking of a use for that outside of the obvious synergy with Rustler or Hope.
:time - Awesome synergy with Bonds, but I'm sure this will be very scary with Adrenaline.
:water - Fits, though redundant with Forest Spirit.
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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509371#msg509371
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 09:55:39 am »
I'm sure the wording is "upon entering play", though, so after played, the passive checked for appropriate ability to give to the plant, then stay there, not doing anything.
So the ability given is loboable.
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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509390#msg509390
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 12:24:53 pm »
I'm sure the wording is "upon entering play", though, so after played, the passive checked for appropriate ability to give to the plant, then stay there, not doing anything.
So the ability given is loboable.

Despite what the wording implies, Kuroaitou's intended mechanic does not function that way. In fact, I believe he has already stated how he intends his mechanic to function in this thread.

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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509455#msg509455
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 04:14:34 pm »
I like this idea, partly because it reminds me of my old idea in the pre-Smithy section (link), which I'm probably never going to finish (I see this thread allready struggling with 12 balanced abilities, I would have to come up with 36).

On the topic of suitable abilities for Omniplant: Do you insist on having an active ability for each element? Because otherwise one could argue about active-passive abilities, like e.g. overdrive.
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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509489#msg509489
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 06:25:57 pm »
I like this idea, but I'm a bit confused by your statement regarding Adaptive not working with Mitosis, LS, etc.  Is this to say that Mitosis and the like are canceled by Adaptive?  Or vice versa?

Canceled; think of this scenario:

Player A plays an Omniplant. Because Player A has a Water mark, it gains 'Growth' at the end of the turn thanks to Adaptive. The following turn, if Player A uses Mitosis on Omniplant, regardless of whether Player A uses the Mitosis ability or not (given ample quanta), at the end of the turn, Adaptive checks to see what the player's mark is (which is still :water), and then gains 'Growth' again. This applies to all forms of lobotmization, so it's impossible to 'rewrite' Omniplant's ability with something else because of the passive skill Adaptive.

You could make Adaptive a "One time use, Triggered, Automatic, Comes into play ability" if you wished to enable Mitosis by removing the anti Lobotomy protection.

I think new Light and Air abilities are probably a good idea. I would make them simple abilities to prevent overwhelming viewers. Ideas that are not overused but do not have an author would be useful for these slots. Things like an evade chance for Air (borrowed from shard).

@FlareGlutox those active-passives are active abilities. Passive abilities are immune to lobotomy. Activated abilities are what you would consider active-active.
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Re: Omniplant | Omniplant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41096.msg509590#msg509590
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2012, 11:59:31 pm »
@FlareGlutox those active-passives are active abilities. Passive abilities are immune to lobotomy. Activated abilities are what you would consider active-active.
That's exactly what I meant, I just used wrong or rather confusing terms to describe it; so thanks for correcting me, I guess...
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