[Official] Fate Egg | Fate Egg

[ratcharmer]

Alright, so another new patch is on it's way, with more new cards.

So far no creatures have been announced, but one of the new cards (mitosis) can be used to create a fate egg generator. Does this mean fate eggs will start seeing real play again? No.

With mitosis the cost to create a "daughter" creature is the same as the cost to play one from your hand, and the spawner is another copy of the creature. So getting a 0/1 fate egg spawner will cost you 2 cards 3 and however many mitosis ends up costing. Said spawner would then be 0/1 and create a fate egg for 3 .

Now lets see if a fate egg is really worth 3 .

Here's the stats on fate egg hatches:
unupped
Average attack: 3.37
Average HP: 4.05
Average cost: 4.95
Chances of getting a dragon: 15%
Chances of getting a nymph: 15%
Chances of getting something useful*:47%
upgraded:
Average attack: 4.28
Average HP: 4.83
Average cost: 5.27
Chances of getting a dragon: 15%
Chances of getting a nymph: 15%
Chances of getting something useful*: 52%
Given those stats I really think you could cut the cost all the way down to 1 and boost the HP of fate egg without making it unbalanced. Just do a side-by-side comparison with graboid if you're wondering why.

Given that, is fate egg a good target for mitosis? Certainly not.

It's too fragile at 1 hp and using mitosis on a creature with an ability means you lose that ability. But most of all, fate egg is extremely cost inefficient. the average attack/hp of a hatched creature are just over 3/4 and you've spent 4 to get that creature, which first spent 1 turn as a 0/1.


*: I defined "useful" as a creature that would either cost 5 or more quanta to summon or is rare. If the creature hatched costs 4 or less and is not rare, then it would have been better to have played that creature directly rather than playing a fate egg and hatching it into said creature.
Realistically I question whether or not creatures up to 8 cost are really worth the delay & extra vulnerability to cc, plus the difficulties in balancing quanta for a random creature. But as long as there was any measurable benefit to using the fate egg I considered the creature "useful".

[OldTrees]

I would be fine with Fate Egg if the average value of the creatures created were slightly greater than 4 |5.5 respectively.
Average value for a card unupped is equal to its cost [4.95->~5 ]
Average value for a card upgraded is equal to its cost +1.5(1-2) [5.27->~7 ]

I think Fate Egg is fine since its spawn is worth 5 |7 but is uncontrolled which decreases the value of fate egg back down to 3 |5

However the theory I use to derive the above opinion (located in my sig) would not care if Fate Egg's hp were changed as long as it remained between 1 and 5 inclusive.

On average Fate Egg is useful. No significant buff needed.

[ratcharmer]

I would be fine with Fate Egg if the average value of the creatures created were slightly greater than 4 |5.5 respectively.
Average value for a card unupped is equal to its cost [4.95->~5 ]
Average value for a card upgraded is equal to its cost +1.5(1-2) [5.27->~7 ]

I think Fate Egg is fine since its spawn is worth 5 |7 but is uncontrolled which decreases the value of fate egg back down to 3 |5

However the theory I use to derive the above opinion (located in my sig) would not care if Fate Egg's hp were changed as long as it remained between 1 and 5 inclusive.

On average Fate Egg is useful. No significant buff needed.

You aren't accounting for the 1 turn delay incurred when you use fate eggs to get creatures, and for the upped version you aren't taking into account that you're using up an upgraded card to get an upgraded card, so there shouldn't be a 1.5x multiplier there.

At least if I'm reading that right . . . that post really isn't all that clear.

And no, fate egg is not useful. There are NO competitive decks out there that use this card.

A while back there was a tourney where everyone had to use this card. One of the most successful strategies was to mutate or  immolate the eggs as soon as they were played, because otherwise they were just too vulnerable to cc, and had too  little payout when they did hatch.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

this card could be good in combination with mitosis however...

[OldTrees]

I would be fine with Fate Egg if the average value of the creatures created were slightly greater than 4 |5.5 respectively.
Average value for a card unupped is equal to its cost [4.95->~5 ]
Average value for a card upgraded is equal to its cost +1.5(1-2) [5.27->~7 ]

I think Fate Egg is fine since its spawn is worth 5 |7 but is uncontrolled which decreases the value of fate egg back down to 3 |5

However the theory I use to derive the above opinion (located in my sig) would not care if Fate Egg's hp were changed as long as it remained between 1 and 5 inclusive.

On average Fate Egg is useful. No significant buff needed.

You aren't accounting for the 1 turn delay incurred when you use fate eggs to get creatures, and for the upped version you aren't taking into account that you're using up an upgraded card to get an upgraded card, so there shouldn't be a 1.5x multiplier there.

The one turn delay is why it should on average produce a creature more valuable than the 4|4+1.5 quanta mark which is the cost of Fate Egg.
In this case you Data suggests that the average creature summoned is valued at the 4.95|5.27+1.5 quanta mark which is greater than the quanta cost of Fate Egg by about 1quanta.

Now the question is how much of a cost reduction from the average value does 1 turn delay and the randomness deserve? (I think they net a -1 quanta decrease but you may disagree. If you disagree then the above valuations would still be useful to your argument. The polls above seem to value the debuff at -2 quanta.)

As for the competitive deck argument and the example of Fallen Elf:
1) Fallen Elf is Fate Egg on a stick. Sticks are used more than 1time effects and are less prone to initial bad luck.
2) The current metagame influences which decks are competitive. The metagame is largely comprised of non balance preferences like fast games, ease of use and predictability.

[ratcharmer]

The one turn delay is why it should on average produce a creature more valuable than the 4|4+1.5 quanta mark which is the cost of Fate Egg.
In this case you Data suggests that the average creature summoned is valued at the 4.95|5.27+1.5 quanta mark which is greater than the quanta cost of Fate Egg by about 1quanta.

Now the question is how much of a cost reduction from the average value does 1 turn delay and the randomness deserve? (I think they net a -1 quanta decrease but you may disagree. If you disagree then the above valuations would still be useful to your argument. The polls above seem to value the debuff at -2 quanta.)

A single quanta is nowhere near worth a full turn delay. With grabiod a full turn delay is valued at 4 quanta, and the graboid itself is a worthwhile creature (2/3 untargetable for 3 -> much better damage/cost ratio than immortal, and it absolutely CANNOT be cc'd before it evolves).

Now, two points can be made against giving the delay a value of 4 quanta:
1) Graboid is overpowered. Some people argue this point, but I think this one is valid.
2) Graboid calls for a duo. I don't think this one is valid (explained below)

Yes, graboid decks need quanta from two elements, but the demand for quanta is so small it's easily met by the mark alone, and then there's usually extra. But more than that graboid may require two elements, but fate egg requires quanta from all 12 elements. Yes, you can hatch it with just but the odds of getting a creature you can use are pretty slim.
Think about how many nymphs would be useful in a mono deck.

Now for two more points for fate egg:
1) It's unreliable. People don't like using fate eggs for the same reason they don't like decks that are prone to bad draws.
2) Many creatures are simply useless in decks that aren't designed around them. Take nymph for example. You might be able to get a little extra damage in by turning a weak hatch into cells, but over the course of the average 10 turn game  that's not going to deal your opponent very much damage, and half the shields in the game will utterly destroy you. And a nymph is considered a fan-freaking-tastic hatch, nevermind dune scorps, cats, vultures etc.

As to the poll:
Yes the option currently leading the poll values the delay at 2 quanta. Heck, my vote is in there. I voted for that option because there is no option to value it more

As for the competitive deck argument and the example of Fallen Elf:
1) Fallen Elf is Fate Egg on a stick. Sticks are used more than 1time effects and are less prone to initial bad luck.
2) The current metagame influences which decks are competitive. The metagame is largely comprised of non balance preferences like fast games, ease of use and predictability.

1) NO. Firstly, it is my understanding that in the competition the mutation spell was used, not Elf/Druid. The reason the spell was used is that it could be played as soon as the egg was, bypassing the 1 turn delay. Second, mutation and hatch are NOT equivalent. When not upgraded a mutation fairly reliably gives a 5/5 abomination, when upgraded (or on the odd chance unupped makes a mutant), it is the equivalent to hatch+chaos power and then randomizing the ability (including such possibilities as steal, destroy and deja vu). Yet fallen druid is not breaking the game right now.
2) Deck speed (outside of how it affects win% -> all other things being equal the deck that deals 100 damage first wins) is mostly a factor in grinding decks, not tournament play. Also, predictability and ease of use both also affect deck balance.

If it was up to me I would reduce the summon cost to 1 (giving the 1 turn delay a value of ~3) and increase the hp to 2 (barely a measurable change). This leaves it worse then graboid in several ways (easier to cc, deals no damage prior to hatching, less reliable). But still makes it a unique and viable tactic IMO.

[Gwenyvier]

I think lowering its cost to 2 and 1 to hatch would make it more viable. I don't think it should get a HP boost simply because it's an egg. Unless we're counting ostrich eggs (or dragon eggs from fantasy), eggs are incredibly easy to break. I would say leave it at 3 and make it come into play burrowed... but then it couldn't be hurt, and like i said, eggs are by nature very fragile.

While I do like the card, chaos and luck are amazingly fun, I don't use it. I was using a Liquid Antimatter deck against Destiny. I lost, not because he got out a bunch of super strong creatures, but because his eggs kept hatching into such weaklings they weren't worth comboing (Yay! Brimstone Eater...). I do understand that the one turn wait is necessary, but it makes the creature incredibly vulnerable. Mutation is a much more reliable way of getting a random creature... with possible unobtainable skills.

[ratcharmer]

this card could be good in combination with mitosis however...

I went over this a post or two before yours, I really think mitosis with fate egg is worse than mitosis with pretty much anything else.

Try it in the trainer. If you can get a workable deck with this let me know. I can't.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

this card could be good in combination with mitosis however...

I went over this a post or two before yours, I really think mitosis with fate egg is worse than mitosis with pretty much anything else.

Try it in the trainer. If you can get a workable deck with this let me know. I can't.

i meant good in a fun sense...
tho if i get a working deck, i will let u know

[Tea is good]

hmmmm, just thought of another buff: can hatch into a flying weapon or with the stat effects quint, adren or momentum.

[Chaotic Elitist]

I wouldn't mind it being able to turn into a flying weapon just for the hell of it. Not like it needs to make sense. However, if you want to have it have a potential status buff on it, I think there should be a chance for it to come into play with a negative effect on it as well, such as poison, gravity pull or Lobo'd, not so much bb.

Aside from that possibility, I like the buff of the creature that it hatches gaining one/one. It would make it far more useful. for four time quanta, I want a creature that's going to be able to do at least a damage, and stay on the field more than a turn. [ Devourer, spark respectively. ]

[ratcharmer]

I don't see why hatching into an animated weapon is less sensible than hatching into a ray of light of steam machine. hatching weapons would be a minor buff since most animated weapons are pretty good creatures (about the only one that wouldn't be useful as a hatch is dagger).

The status effects . . . could work, but it feels more like an ability IMO.

For anyone still debating if this card is UP or not, here's a comparison that might shed some light on the subject:

Graviton Mercenary
Grav merc is one of the cards most commonly listed in "needs a buff" discussions. In the "Which cards are underpowered?" thread it was one of the higher ranked cards. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17620.0.html
(poll is a little old, but the point still stands)

Just feel that I should point out that the average stats for a fate egg hatch are pretty comparable to grav merc (~3.3 attack, 4 hp for fate egg, 3 attack and 5 hp for graviton merc) and it costs the same (3 to summon, 1 to hatch). On top of that it spends 1 turn as a 0/1 oty snack for at least a turn before it can do anything at all.

Granted, Fate egg might hatch useful abilities, but I feel that the unreliability of fate egg more than makes up for this. Some abilities might be powerful, but the vast majority of the abilities in the game are useful primarily in a deck that's designed to use them. Think of it this way: Imagine a deck consisting of 10 quantum pillars and 20 creatures picked entirely at random. Is that going to be a strong competitive deck? No, it isn't. But that's pretty much what fate egg is doing to your strategy. On top of that, it does it inefficiently.

I can't stress this enough; I cannot find any remotely competitive deck that uses even a single copy of this card. It needs a rainbow to work, but there are far better things to do with in a rainbow than waste it on the single least efficient creature in the game.

I HAVE seen competitive decks that use pre-buff skeleton, but none that use fate egg.

Why isn't there more call for this card to be buffed? I mostly attribute it to two causes:
1) The RNG hides how weak it is. Since it turns into a random creature most people have no idea what the average stats of the creature hatched are, and frequently assume that they must be high enough to justify the cost of the card. Losing when trying to use this card is often associated more to bad luck than the card being UP.
2) It still sees use. Zanz and many others frequently refer to  card usage statistics when determining which cards need buffs, and while fate egg isn't one of the most used cards, it isn't one of the least either. This is because many people don't realize how weak it is (see above) and also because it IS seen frequently in "messing around" decks that aren't designed to be competitive, but they're fun.

Think about that for a minute. The card is utterly useless for actually winning, but people are using it anyway because it's fun. I think we're doing ourselves a disservice by not buffing this card.

Sorry for long post, I know this was a bit of a rant.

*edit* March 24, 2011:
I just spent a good long time digging through decks posted to try and find serious decks that use this card. Here's what I found:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4960.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22308.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1361.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18500.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22521.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16492.msg225146#msg225146

The first two list themselves as anti-FG decks, but I can't get either one to work in trainer. The creator of one of them states that fate eggs were probably a poor creature choice.
The remaining four list themselves as fun/messing around decks. One is actually in the fun deck archive.
Of the decks I found (and I looked far enough back that I found posts about the "upcoming sundial nerf") the immortal egg-layer is the closest thing to a real fate egg deck that I've found. In testing it almost worked. I actually did beat Lionheart with it once, but it was through deckout. The only thing I used fate egg for was a target for eternity to keep myself from decking out.

None of them are workable decks either for grinding AI or PvP