(Life Sideboard) Manuel 3 - 2 DoctorC (Darkness Upgrades)

[Vangelios]

As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to AI fault at the time. He only agreed to the replay for lack of knowledge of a better alternative. Odii and I were away from our computers/asleep during the match, so post-match is our only opportunity to sort this out.

The winning screenshot provided by Life itself is showing clear evidence of AI misplay, halving its Shrieker damage and burning quanta on Steals on two pillars, preventing itself from playing any Gargoyles it drew in the four missing turns between these screenshots.

We claim that this game did not need to be replayed, that it should be ruled as a win for Darkness due to AI fault, and that the result should be overturned to 3-1 in Darkness' favour given the results of the rest of the match. Would like to hear WM input on this given our own evidence provided.

Manuel also don't play with me online and was "inexperienced" pvp too because don't know sideboard options and played all games with this mitosis and one deflag more than necessary
you argue of inexperienced pvp but this thing not is present in the rules

[CactusKing]

As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to AI fault at the time. He only agreed to the replay for lack of knowledge of a better alternative. Odii and I were away from our computers/asleep during the match, so post-match is our only opportunity to sort this out.

The winning screenshot provided by Life itself is showing clear evidence of AI misplay, halving its Shrieker damage and burning quanta on Steals on two pillars, preventing itself from playing any Gargoyles it drew in the four missing turns between these screenshots.

We claim that this game did not need to be replayed, that it should be ruled as a win for Darkness due to AI fault, and that the result should be overturned to 3-1 in Darkness' favour given the results of the rest of the match. Would like to hear WM input on this given our own evidence provided.

Manuel also don't play with me online and was "inexperienced" pvp too because don't know sideboard options and played all games with this mitosis and one deflag more than necessary
you argue of inexperienced pvp but this thing not is present in the rules

That's just Manuel using a skill suboptimally, our case isn't about DoctorC's combat experience, it's about handling of the postgame when he should have been declared the winner but wasn't due to a misunderstanding in the rules.

[Aves]

Teams are responsible for making sure that their players understand the rules. This applies to both Manuel's use or lack thereof of the sideboard option and to the players' reactions in the dc. If something isn't clear by the time preparation is over, teams should ideally be on hand to assist in making sure that things go smoothly. That mistakes and misplays and whatnot happened is natural, and it's up to the teams to minimize their occurrence and impact.

In this case, we are looking for indisputable evidence that one player would have clearly won. The question isn't whether or not Manuel made a mistake-- it's if DoctorC would have won regardless of what Manuel did when the dc happened.

3.5. DISCONNECTS & DESYNCS
...

• All games can be appealed to WMs, but there must be indisputable evidence provided that one player would have clearly won. Whether one player would have clearly won is decided strictly, and providing more information makes it more likely that an accurate ruling will occur.
• Warmasters are the final arbitraters on all matters. If you have any issues, contact WMs IMMEDIATELY.

I can't speak for WMs, but I think they'll agree with me on that. So, do yall have turn-of-dc screenshots?

[Vangelios]

again the rule: (unless both agree to restart the duel)  these prints are very interpretive  so I see this would have to be resolved at the moment, now only the rules can be respected.
"inexperienced" pvp we have in both sides here.  Manu don't know to use sideboard and Doctor misunderstood the rules.

[Aves]

again the rule: (unless both agree to restart the duel)  these prints are very interpretive  so I see this would have to be resolved at the moment, now only the rules can be respected.
"inexperienced" pvp we have in both sides here.  Manu don't know to use sideboard and Doctor misunderstood the rules.

The last and second to last bullet points clearly trump the first ones given how they're worded. It doesn't matter how many mistakes you made before the dc, the appeal for the game is about what happened when they dced. With that said, has to provide irrefutable evidence, or at least something that's very hard to argue against.

[Spielkind]

I dont know how much you can argue about an inexpierenced player but thinking he would have used the cards better than the ai?! 

[Manuel]

didn't see any gp from him after the desynch

This really doesn't match up with what we see. Could both parties please provide a screenshot at the time of dc? And a description of the sequence of draws afterwards would be nice. So both parties should send any information they have, screenshots or description of events, to me.

I will simply state this from the rules:

Whether one player would have clearly won is decided strictly, and providing more information makes it more likely that an accurate ruling will occur.

Thank you.

i lost a green nymph, i am sure doctorc was in the game and he killed it with gp, i played nymph first because i had no aw or staffs in the hand; ai never played the second gravity pull, i have no idea on why the nymph is alive in your screen or if ai played the second nymph
i can't prove this, u can't prove this, i have no idea on what other say i can't screen every turn with the timeout at 1 minute

As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to

i really can't do nothing about this, i didn't notice something so "irregular" by AI for gave the win (rather than burrowing unupped graboids, after i had 1 staffs in play) if he noticed something irregular like mutant creatures or heavy heavy missplay, i had no problems to give him the win, he agreed to replay, he agreed to take the win next match, he agreed the final score to 3-2

odi and phys, other than explain ALL the rules to your players, explain to doctor c to close his tabs when he play



so maybe he doesn't desynch making me waste an hour replaying 3 or 4 games

[Manuel]

thinking about everything even more

- he posted screens in your team chat, we played another 30 minutes after that match, nobody of team darkness told me something
- i waited 40 minutes doctorc after after we scheduled in chat, he never told me to be inexperienced or be unable to play without someone of his team online
- if u know your teammate is inexperienced, don't leave him alone during is matches
- if i didn't save that screen after I WIN 3-2 and made the thread, u was actually able to get this win because u picked a guy that browse tumblr while he play pvp

it's for this kind of bullshit that players didn't join war and didn't join trials, have fun having elements without masters and a war with 4 members/team

[Zawadx]

I'm sorry I wasn't more strict earlier and pushed for a faster resolution. I didn't detail my full thoughts earlier because there was a crucial piece of information I needed: what was GPed, and when (this decides the match). But I now realize that was a mistake, and I should've just move the question to PMs and closed this. Please, forgive me.

i lost a green nymph, i am sure doctorc was in the game and he killed it with gp, i played nymph first because i had no aw or staffs in the hand; ai never played the second gravity pull, i have no idea on why the nymph is alive in your screen or if ai played the second nymph
i can't prove this, u can't prove this, i have no idea on what other say i can't screen every turn with the timeout at 1 minute

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound confrontational or incriminate you. I am entirely neutral here, and my verdict rested entirely on the info on the gp. One thing which might've happened is that the gp was used on nymph by ai the turn after dc; I've seen the system bug out here and try to fix itself here, which makes the dc timeout happen one turn after the ai takes over. Draws should sync on both sides, so the appearance of a second nymph on your side didn't match doc's account. Which is why I needed the info.

Also, I'd like to make it clear that the rules for War (regarding dcs and desync) doesn't award the win to a player if he could win with perfect play. Players aren't infallible, and we'll use the screenshots to determine how the game should've gone barring AI misplays (not human ones).

But the screenshots here would suggest that the gravity pull was used after the dc happened, and as Doc's screenshot shows that he wouldn't make the mistake of AI gping nymph. Of course, if dc didn't happen Manuel might've held onto adrenastave for an extra turn in order to bait a gp on the nymph: who knows? This is why I asked for information from all players: their screenshots and descriptions would shed light on the issue, and tell me who the win should've gone to.

Now, I eagerly await darkness's input on the matter, if any. Of course the tabbing issue is also serious, and I will factor it into the judgement. The side which created dcs, even unwittingly, shouldn't be rewarded blindly. (I'd be able to be more sure of fairness if I didn't have to detail all this, but I think an explanation of everything is better here.)

With that said,

thinking about everything even more

- he posted screens in your team chat, we played another 30 minutes after that match, nobody of team darkness told me something
- i waited 40 minutes doctorc after after we scheduled in chat, he never told me to be inexperienced or be unable to play without someone of his team online
- if u know your teammate is inexperienced, don't leave him alone during is matches
- if i didn't save that screen after I WIN 3-2 and made the thread, u was actually able to get this win because u picked a guy that browse tumblr while he play pvp

it's for this kind of bullshit that players didn't join war and didn't join trials, have fun having elements without masters and a war with 4 members/team

Look, I understand you're angry. I'd get angry too, if I had to defend myself like this (once again, sorry that my message seemed accusational. That wasn't what I was going for at all). But please, you should understand that DoctorC hasn't actively tried to do anything here; it was simply team darkness trying to ensure a fair result. Saying something like that to DoctorC directly, or towards anyone at all for that matter, isn't going to help out. I am one of the people most concerned about the decline of the community, but if we want to stop it we need to welcome new players with open arms as well as having old players stay. Knowing that tabbing causes dcs is also another piece of information that a new player might lack (I didn't know it for several months after joining, and I read every guide available). Thanks for bringing it to my attention, but please don't say stuff so hurtfully from next time. After all, it's a game right? In the end everyone should leave with a good experience.

And I'm sorry this thread got derailed so much. Please, in the future don't presume that your ruling will be the one that WMs will rest on, and be a bit more tactful before making comments. I kept this thread open in the spirit of free discussion, but please be nice.

 

[Manuel]

But the screenshots here would suggest that the gravity pull was used after the dc happened, and as Doc's screenshot shows that he wouldn't make the mistake of AI gping nymph.

in another game he did the same thing: gp my first creature played, a nymph, but guess what? i don't have a screen of this lmao
IMPLYING the gp was played by the AI in MY screenshot, doctorc was able to do the same play, we aren't talking about a mono nt deck that can't be played by AI
doctorc was able to have all the reasons to gp my nymph; to prevent my damage because he didn't had enough creatures to outrush me, prevent adrenaline on my staff because i can't draw the adrenaline spell and so on

i didn't want to sound harsh, but i waited 40 minutes before playing, another hour for playing 8 matches, and after all this i simply wasted time because i can't prove things because i didn't screen turn by turn makes me really laugh

i am not disrespecting doctorc, but if he was able to say things yesterday during our matches on the 1-1 it was totally different than risking to lost 3-1 now lol

just for asking, if i didn't had that screenshot it was automatically 3-1 for team darkness, right? 

[JonathanCrazyJ]

For the record, i take ss at the time of match but if it is uncontested at the time i don't save them.
Regardless of who is in the right here there is no way the result can or should be overturned. There is a reason the rule is that you should say you plan to contest it at the time, so people can save their images and prepare their case.

I hope that both DrC and Manuel will not be put off war or pvp by this, it is the nature of a poor server game that ai disputes will occur. The dc in this game sounds like it was quite early on, and if both sides won i would feel hard done by as darkness, but wouldn't expect anything other than a replay tbh. As life i would be surprised by a contest at the time, but would have accepted it. After the rest of the match has been finished it should not be contested, though it is a shame someone as friendly, new and mild mannered as DrC had to make that decision alone.

Why am I weighing in when it's none of my business? Who knows, but i dont like the tone of this discussion when it's clear in the rules the result can't now be changed.

[Spielkind]

As said, i dont know i would gp the nymph too. Manu could have 0 AW 3Druids and no adrena in Hand waiting cause steal, drawing Three AW Next three rounds without adrena so nymph gp would be nice, no adrena on them. Hope discussion will end soon... thx for neutrality zawa and jcj,