Post by: Manuel on November 06, 2017, 03:25:00 pm
ggs
Post by: DoctorC on November 06, 2017, 03:26:11 pm
Sadness. Good game though.
Post by: Spielkind on November 06, 2017, 03:28:22 pm
Post by: Odii Odsen on November 06, 2017, 03:34:22 pm
Post by: Vangelios on November 06, 2017, 04:12:03 pm
Post by: Manuel on November 06, 2017, 04:39:31 pm
A bit disapointing to see that Life suggested a replay in game 3. From my understanding (Screenshot I saw) it was a sure win for darkness. DoctorC is unexperienced in pvp. A desynch don't mean it has to be replayed. Is it possible to see the winning screenshot of Team Life from game 3 please? Maybe this can clarify some things.
the wins was
1-0
1-1
1-2
2-2
3-2
i lost game 3 lol, same for game 2 after a desynch giving the win to my opponent because i lost against ai when doctor c won
all the games replayed was because we both won against AI after the desynch, we never restarted a match for a desynch
i really really hope it is clear
Post by: Odii Odsen on November 06, 2017, 05:23:00 pm
The game before was (from what I heard) under normal circumstances a win for Darkness. Ai heavily misplayed. I think it was a GPull thing. So game 3 should be the one you desynched and both won against ai. And game 4 should be the game you guys called game 3. The score should be then 3-1.
My point is that a replay in game 3 (when both won against ai) should be a win for Darkness due to a heavy misplay by ai. Under normal circumstances Manuel had no chance to win this game. So I wanted to see a screenshot if I am wrong or if I miss some more information. Sorry I am not at home and just on my phone.
Post by: Vangelios on November 06, 2017, 05:32:47 pm
"In the event of a disconnect (Opponent not responding, CPU takes over), the players should play it out vs the AI on both sides (unless both agree to restart the duel)."
if happens game 4 and 5 was because both agreed to restart the duel ok?
Post by: Odii Odsen on November 06, 2017, 05:55:17 pm
Post by: MyNameIsJoey on November 06, 2017, 05:57:21 pm
both won? replay. nobody cares about AI misplay.
Post by: Aves on November 06, 2017, 06:02:56 pm
With that said it's a bit late if you call it out after playing games 4 and 5. Didn't we have this exact scenario at one point in W10?
Post by: Manuel on November 06, 2017, 06:25:24 pm
My point is that a replay in game 3 (when both won against ai) should be a win for Darkness due to a heavy misplay by ai. Under normal circumstances Manuel had no chance to win this game. So I wanted to see a screenshot if I am wrong or if I miss some more information. Sorry I am not at home and just on my phone.
(https://i.imgur.com/PvJqdDz.png)
i don't really think he was able to do something even with unborrowed shriekers, the desynch wasn't in early game, didn't see any gp from him after the desynch
we are talking about a match i lost in the end, after i gave to my opponent 2 wins without asking screenshots
Post by: Zawadx on November 06, 2017, 06:50:39 pm
from my experience, WM say :
both won? replay. nobody cares about AI misplay.
I say that if you can prove through screenshots that one site would win barring AI misplay, then they get the win. But here it seems that we had a normal dc with wins on both sides (not confirmed if that screenshot is for the specific game, but Darkness would need another screenshot to contest). Results remain as they were.
Post by: Odii Odsen on November 06, 2017, 07:04:02 pm
from my experience, WM say :
both won? replay. nobody cares about AI misplay.
This is not true. There were several matches in the past that were decided by WMs in such situations. Anyways, that was not my intention to claim a win after the match happened. I was just wondering what happened in game 3 during the desynch. Isn't it legit to ask? :P
Thanks for the screenie. Will have a look at it later at home. That was actually everything I wanted :D
Post by: Physsion on November 06, 2017, 09:12:02 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/PvJqdDz.png)
i don't really think he was able to do something even with unborrowed shriekers, the desynch wasn't in early game, didn't see any gp from him after the desynch
we are talking about a match i lost in the end, after i gave to my opponent 2 wins without asking screenshots
(https://i.imgur.com/UsfaGEW.png)
This is our screenshot of game 3, posted by DoctorC in our team chat.
As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to AI fault at the time. He only agreed to the replay for lack of knowledge of a better alternative. Odii and I were away from our computers/asleep during the match, so post-match is our only opportunity to sort this out.
The winning screenshot provided by Life itself is showing clear evidence of AI misplay, halving its Shrieker damage and burning quanta on Steals on two pillars, preventing itself from playing any Gargoyles it drew in the four missing turns between these screenshots.
We claim that this game did not need to be replayed, that it should be ruled as a win for Darkness due to AI fault, and that the result should be overturned to 3-1 in Darkness' favour given the results of the rest of the match. Would like to hear WM input on this given our own evidence provided.
Post by: worldwideweb3 on November 06, 2017, 09:15:21 pm
Post by: Aves on November 06, 2017, 09:23:23 pm
Post by: Odii Odsen on November 06, 2017, 09:30:56 pm
The :gravity quanta on both sides shows evidence of 1 GForce used. The :life screenshot is a few turns later, so it's possible that one staff wasn't drawn while the other was killed. Is there a situation where AI wouldn't play the staff and adrenaline it, though? Since that would be a clear misplay on that AI's part too.
That was my point. I just wanted to understand what happened in this game. a) both ai's failed and a replay was needed or b) the GPull would decide the match before a second adrenalined staff could be played.
Post by: Physsion on November 06, 2017, 09:34:44 pm
The :gravity quanta on both sides shows evidence of 1 GForce used. The :life screenshot is a few turns later, so it's possible that one staff wasn't drawn while the other was killed. Is there a situation where AI wouldn't play the staff and adrenaline it, though? Since that would be a clear misplay on that AI's part too.
I don't believe there's any situation where the AI won't play a Staff + AW + Adrenaline if it has the opportunity (it clearly has the quanta available) except possibly during SoSac.
All 3 Steals are present in DoctorC's hand, showing there was no fault with the AI playing a staff without the AW at the same time.
Post by: Aves on November 06, 2017, 09:41:22 pm
What's interesting to me is that there's no green nymph in the :life pov. Was the GForce used before or after the dc?
Edit: Also, a screenshot of the dc-ing turn would be very helpful, to see where both sides started.
Post by: iancudorinmarian on November 06, 2017, 09:49:27 pm
Post by: Odii Odsen on November 06, 2017, 10:12:59 pm
Post by: Physsion on November 06, 2017, 10:13:44 pm
Iirc AI always has a chance of holding in cards even if it does have the quanta to play them.
What's interesting to me is that there's no green nymph in the :life pov. Was the GForce used before or after the dc?
Edit: Also, a screenshot of the dc-ing turn would be very helpful, to see where both sides started.
It seems very likely that the AI did use a GForce on the Green Nymph, and the Staves were drawn afterwards (given the lack of damage due to burrowed Shriekers) but only Manuel can answer this.
EDIT: thinking about it some more, given the board states shown in both screenshots, I don't see any other possible series of events where this could occur other than a GForce being used on a Nymph rather than being held for a Staff.
Post by: Zawadx on November 07, 2017, 03:28:20 am
didn't see any gp from him after the desynch
This really doesn't match up with what we see. Could both parties please provide a screenshot at the time of dc? And a description of the sequence of draws afterwards would be nice. So both parties should send any information they have, screenshots or description of events, to me.
I will simply state this from the rules:
Whether one player would have clearly won is decided strictly, and providing more information makes it more likely that an accurate ruling will occur.
Thank you.
Post by: Vangelios on November 07, 2017, 04:48:39 am
As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to AI fault at the time. He only agreed to the replay for lack of knowledge of a better alternative. Odii and I were away from our computers/asleep during the match, so post-match is our only opportunity to sort this out.
The winning screenshot provided by Life itself is showing clear evidence of AI misplay, halving its Shrieker damage and burning quanta on Steals on two pillars, preventing itself from playing any Gargoyles it drew in the four missing turns between these screenshots.
We claim that this game did not need to be replayed, that it should be ruled as a win for Darkness due to AI fault, and that the result should be overturned to 3-1 in Darkness' favour given the results of the rest of the match. Would like to hear WM input on this given our own evidence provided.
Manuel also don't play with me online and was "inexperienced" pvp too because don't know sideboard options and played all games with this mitosis and one deflag more than necessary
you argue of inexperienced pvp but this thing not is present in the rules
Post by: CactusKing on November 07, 2017, 05:14:45 am
That's just Manuel using a skill suboptimally, our case isn't about DoctorC's combat experience, it's about handling of the postgame when he should have been declared the winner but wasn't due to a misunderstanding in the rules.
As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to AI fault at the time. He only agreed to the replay for lack of knowledge of a better alternative. Odii and I were away from our computers/asleep during the match, so post-match is our only opportunity to sort this out.
The winning screenshot provided by Life itself is showing clear evidence of AI misplay, halving its Shrieker damage and burning quanta on Steals on two pillars, preventing itself from playing any Gargoyles it drew in the four missing turns between these screenshots.
We claim that this game did not need to be replayed, that it should be ruled as a win for Darkness due to AI fault, and that the result should be overturned to 3-1 in Darkness' favour given the results of the rest of the match. Would like to hear WM input on this given our own evidence provided.
Manuel also don't play with me online and was "inexperienced" pvp too because don't know sideboard options and played all games with this mitosis and one deflag more than necessary
you argue of inexperienced pvp but this thing not is present in the rules
Post by: Aves on November 07, 2017, 05:33:07 am
In this case, we are looking for indisputable evidence that one player would have clearly won. The question isn't whether or not Manuel made a mistake-- it's if DoctorC would have won regardless of what Manuel did when the dc happened.
Quote from: Rules
3.5. DISCONNECTS & DESYNCS
...
- All games can be appealed to WMs, but there must be indisputable evidence provided that one player would have clearly won. Whether one player would have clearly won is decided strictly, and providing more information makes it more likely that an accurate ruling will occur.
- Warmasters are the final arbitraters on all matters. If you have any issues, contact WMs IMMEDIATELY.
I can't speak for WMs, but I think they'll agree with me on that. So, do yall have turn-of-dc screenshots?
Post by: Vangelios on November 07, 2017, 05:46:03 am
"inexperienced" pvp we have in both sides here. Manu don't know to use sideboard and Doctor misunderstood the rules.
Post by: Aves on November 07, 2017, 05:48:45 am
again the rule: (unless both agree to restart the duel) these prints are very interpretive so I see this would have to be resolved at the moment, now only the rules can be respected.
"inexperienced" pvp we have in both sides here. Manu don't know to use sideboard and Doctor misunderstood the rules.
The last and second to last bullet points clearly trump the first ones given how they're worded. It doesn't matter how many mistakes you made before the dc, the appeal for the game is about what happened when they dced. With that said, :darkness has to provide irrefutable evidence, or at least something that's very hard to argue against.
Post by: Spielkind on November 07, 2017, 06:41:30 am
Post by: Manuel on November 07, 2017, 09:05:40 am
didn't see any gp from him after the desynch
This really doesn't match up with what we see. Could both parties please provide a screenshot at the time of dc? And a description of the sequence of draws afterwards would be nice. So both parties should send any information they have, screenshots or description of events, to me.
I will simply state this from the rules:Whether one player would have clearly won is decided strictly, and providing more information makes it more likely that an accurate ruling will occur.
Thank you.
i lost a green nymph, i am sure doctorc was in the game and he killed it with gp, i played nymph first because i had no aw or staffs in the hand; ai never played the second gravity pull, i have no idea on why the nymph is alive in your screen or if ai played the second nymph
i can't prove this, u can't prove this, i have no idea on what other say i can't screen every turn with the timeout at 1 minute
As Odii said, Doc is inexperienced in PvP, and did not know the process for claiming the win to
i really can't do nothing about this, i didn't notice something so "irregular" by AI for gave the win (rather than burrowing unupped graboids, after i had 1 staffs in play) if he noticed something irregular like mutant creatures or heavy heavy missplay, i had no problems to give him the win, he agreed to replay, he agreed to take the win next match, he agreed the final score to 3-2
odi and phys, other than explain ALL the rules to your players, explain to doctor c to close his tabs when he play
(https://i.imgur.com/p3ImjRT.png)
so maybe he doesn't desynch making me waste an hour replaying 3 or 4 games
Post by: Manuel on November 07, 2017, 11:48:25 am
- he posted screens in your team chat, we played another 30 minutes after that match, nobody of team darkness told me something
- i waited 40 minutes doctorc after after we scheduled in chat, he never told me to be inexperienced or be unable to play without someone of his team online
- if u know your teammate is inexperienced, don't leave him alone during is matches
- if i didn't save that screen after I WIN 3-2 and made the thread, u was actually able to get this win because u picked a guy that browse tumblr while he play pvp
it's for this kind of bullshit that players didn't join war and didn't join trials, have fun having elements without masters and a war with 4 members/team
Post by: Zawadx on November 07, 2017, 02:10:37 pm
i lost a green nymph, i am sure doctorc was in the game and he killed it with gp, i played nymph first because i had no aw or staffs in the hand; ai never played the second gravity pull, i have no idea on why the nymph is alive in your screen or if ai played the second nymph
i can't prove this, u can't prove this, i have no idea on what other say i can't screen every turn with the timeout at 1 minute
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound confrontational or incriminate you. I am entirely neutral here, and my verdict rested entirely on the info on the gp. One thing which might've happened is that the gp was used on nymph by ai the turn after dc; I've seen the system bug out here and try to fix itself here, which makes the dc timeout happen one turn after the ai takes over. Draws should sync on both sides, so the appearance of a second nymph on your side didn't match doc's account. Which is why I needed the info.
Also, I'd like to make it clear that the rules for War (regarding dcs and desync) doesn't award the win to a player if he could win with perfect play. Players aren't infallible, and we'll use the screenshots to determine how the game should've gone barring AI misplays (not human ones).
But the screenshots here would suggest that the gravity pull was used after the dc happened, and as Doc's screenshot shows that he wouldn't make the mistake of AI gping nymph. Of course, if dc didn't happen Manuel might've held onto adrenastave for an extra turn in order to bait a gp on the nymph: who knows? This is why I asked for information from all players: their screenshots and descriptions would shed light on the issue, and tell me who the win should've gone to.
Now, I eagerly await darkness's input on the matter, if any. Of course the tabbing issue is also serious, and I will factor it into the judgement. The side which created dcs, even unwittingly, shouldn't be rewarded blindly. (I'd be able to be more sure of fairness if I didn't have to detail all this, but I think an explanation of everything is better here.)
With that said,
thinking about everything even more
- he posted screens in your team chat, we played another 30 minutes after that match, nobody of team darkness told me something
- i waited 40 minutes doctorc after after we scheduled in chat, he never told me to be inexperienced or be unable to play without someone of his team online
- if u know your teammate is inexperienced, don't leave him alone during is matches
- if i didn't save that screen after I WIN 3-2 and made the thread, u was actually able to get this win because u picked a guy that browse tumblr while he play pvp
it's for this kind of bullshit that players didn't join war and didn't join trials, have fun having elements without masters and a war with 4 members/team
Look, I understand you're angry. I'd get angry too, if I had to defend myself like this (once again, sorry that my message seemed accusational. That wasn't what I was going for at all). But please, you should understand that DoctorC hasn't actively tried to do anything here; it was simply team darkness trying to ensure a fair result. Saying something like that to DoctorC directly, or towards anyone at all for that matter, isn't going to help out. I am one of the people most concerned about the decline of the community, but if we want to stop it we need to welcome new players with open arms as well as having old players stay. Knowing that tabbing causes dcs is also another piece of information that a new player might lack (I didn't know it for several months after joining, and I read every guide available). Thanks for bringing it to my attention, but please don't say stuff so hurtfully from next time. After all, it's a game right? In the end everyone should leave with a good experience.
And I'm sorry this thread got derailed so much. Please, in the future don't presume that your ruling will be the one that WMs will rest on, and be a bit more tactful before making comments. I kept this thread open in the spirit of free discussion, but please be nice.
Post by: Manuel on November 07, 2017, 03:10:46 pm
But the screenshots here would suggest that the gravity pull was used after the dc happened, and as Doc's screenshot shows that he wouldn't make the mistake of AI gping nymph.
in another game he did the same thing: gp my first creature played, a nymph, but guess what? i don't have a screen of this lmao
IMPLYING the gp was played by the AI in MY screenshot, doctorc was able to do the same play, we aren't talking about a mono nt deck that can't be played by AI
doctorc was able to have all the reasons to gp my nymph; to prevent my damage because he didn't had enough creatures to outrush me, prevent adrenaline on my staff because i can't draw the adrenaline spell and so on
i didn't want to sound harsh, but i waited 40 minutes before playing, another hour for playing 8 matches, and after all this i simply wasted time because i can't prove things because i didn't screen turn by turn makes me really laugh
i am not disrespecting doctorc, but if he was able to say things yesterday during our matches on the 1-1 it was totally different than risking to lost 3-1 now lol
just for asking, if i didn't had that screenshot it was automatically 3-1 for team darkness, right? :sillyspin:
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on November 07, 2017, 03:45:01 pm
Regardless of who is in the right here there is no way the result can or should be overturned. There is a reason the rule is that you should say you plan to contest it at the time, so people can save their images and prepare their case.
I hope that both DrC and Manuel will not be put off war or pvp by this, it is the nature of a poor server game that ai disputes will occur. The dc in this game sounds like it was quite early on, and if both sides won i would feel hard done by as darkness, but wouldn't expect anything other than a replay tbh. As life i would be surprised by a contest at the time, but would have accepted it. After the rest of the match has been finished it should not be contested, though it is a shame someone as friendly, new and mild mannered as DrC had to make that decision alone.
Why am I weighing in when it's none of my business? Who knows, but i dont like the tone of this discussion when it's clear in the rules the result can't now be changed.
Post by: Spielkind on November 07, 2017, 03:59:24 pm