Should Poison Prevent Elemental Mastery?

[TheMonolith]

Should having poison in you at the end of a game prevent you from getting EM even if you have enough healing to counter the poison?
Or alternatively, should you get EM if you need healing in the last turn to get full HPs?

A hypothetical:

Let's suppose I have 100 HP, but 3 poison in me, and 1 SoG out.  When I take my turn, if my opponent dies from poison, creatures, or spells, I cannot get Elemental Mastery - because when he dies, I will only have 97 HP due to the poison in me.  This indicates that 'poisoned' is a condition that precludes getting EM.  That's fine, as long as it's applied consistently.  BUT...

If I manage to strike the death blow with my weapon (after my Shard activates), I will get my 5 healing, and get Mastery.

It seems to me that Elemental Mastery - a HUGE reward in a game where ranking is based on coins won - should not rely on whether or not I kill my opponent with my weapon.

To fix this, instead of poison damage taking place during the opponent's turn, it simply needs to take place at the beginning of the turn of the poisoned player.

That way, if the poison kills you, you're dead.  If not, your healing (if you have it) is applied, and you can get EM.

The other solution to make this consistent is to move weapon damage so all damage to your opponent (or yourself) occurs at the same time.

That is all.

[TheMadEvil]

actually, poison damage during opponent's turn and poison damage at the beginning of your turn is basically the same thing.

It doesn't matter when you apply the damage, you will still have it when you attack unless healing is done before the attack.

Think of it this way:
1) You heal damage. --> You attack.
2) You attack. --> You heal damage.

If there is poison damage anywhere in between these, then you don't get EM.

Way #1 is how it is done for Bond (each creature separately), Way #2 is how it is done for Shard (after creatures, before weapon).
Because healing is done differently for each card, you have to think differently depending on which you play, unless you use no creatures.
However, poison damage done outside of all of this, be it before the attack or after the damage (this includes beginning and end of your turn, and opponent's entire turn), will still be applied and need to be healed.

In summation, it doesn't matter when poison is applied, only when healing is applied. If all healing is applied before damage is applied, then EM is easier. How it is now, though, just make sure to bring Miracle.

[larsi2358]

Yep, you only need an healing shard, or empathic bond...

[TheMonolith]

I think my main point has escaped everyone.

You should not get 2x reward just because you happened to have a weapon out, happened to not do enough damage during creature/spell phase, and happen to do enough damage with your weapon to kill.

My problem is with the inconsistency.  EM is a HUGE reward, and should not be granted (or taken away) based on the order of events in the final turn.

What's the big deal with just moving poison damage to occur at the start of the turn of the person who is poisoned?

[Tea is good]

This situation is why I like to use Ferals instead of SoGs. My deck relies on getting EMs (I have 3 Imp Miracles, 2 Ferals and 6 SoDs). I don't really care if healing should happen before you win, I just make it so my healing always happens before I win.

[Wisemage]

what you are talking about is actually a flaw with SoGs.

Unlike Bonds they heal you after you attack, meaning getting EM is alot ahrder, a simple fix is make ehaling happen BEFORE attacks.  i just didnt get EM cause my shards didnt heal till after i won and i was 1  hp away.

[becarem]

Discussion time!

what you are talking about is actually a flaw with SoGs.

Unlike Bonds they heal you after you attack, meaning getting EM is alot harder, a simple fix is make healing happen BEFORE attacks.  i just didnt get EM cause my shards didnt heal till after i won and i was 1  hp away.

This happens to me a lot.  Exceptionally frustrating, that the order of operations does not always allow me to bandage that 2HP before my weapon finishes off my opponent.  WTF, grr.  At least it is not an activated ability, that would be broken.

...But back to the topic, this change would mean that no one playing against a poison deck would be able to get elemental mastery, unless they took up space in their deck to place a purify.

I am perfectly fine with the way it is.  I would strongly oppose any change which denies people the chance to wipe the board (a complete victory), yet be denied total victory because they failed to place a single, specialized card in their deck on the off-chance that their opponent had even a single source of poison.

I believe that poison should have the same role it does now: an alternate means of dealing unblockable, cumulative damage that is immensely troublesome to get rid of, yet does not entirely prevent a player from triumphing over it.  Without said card.

[TheMadEvil]

Rethink what you are saying here...it's kind of hard to explain, but I'll try again. No matter when poison damage happens, it's still there when you get to end of turn. The problem is not with when poison happens, it's when healing happens.

For example, you have full life, then attack. Poison can happen at ANY POINT after this - end of your turn, any point of opponent's turn, or beginning of your turn. Any of these will still give you poison damage before you attack. Again, it doesn't matter when POISON damage is done. All that matters is when HEALING is taken into account.

Shards heal AFTER everything but your weapon. Sundials help here.
Bonds heal BEFORE EACH CREATURE ATTACKS. **Reread this if you need** VERY important. If you have a screen full of 1 damage creatures with 70 life and 6 bonds out, your opponent has 5 life and no shield, you will NOT get an EM. This is because Elements goes in order of FIFO. First creature to come into play is first creature to bond, then attack. This is repeated up through the last creature to come into play. Sundials also help here. Miracle is gold, since you ALWAYS get that 1 life from the first creature before it attacks.
I'm almost certain (not 100% because I don't own one to use constantly yet) that Druidic Staff works after the weapon attacks...

So again, time of poisoning doesn't matter, though you don't get denied EM because of poison. Think of it the same as if your opponent plays that last dragon and your phase shield just wore off. Should you be awarded an EM for wiping out all his permanents and creatures, even though he has that last 10 quantum to play the last card in his deck?
I agree, poison sucks, but it's not as much the way poison works. I have this same problem with any other time the same situation (enough healing to get max life, but opponent dies before it's applied) arises, which is quite often for me.

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass, or be condescending, it's just kinda hard to explain without diagrams and hand gestures and the like, ya'know?

[TheMonolith]

Yes, there are a lot of different ways you could move things around to solve the problem... the problem that things happen in the wrong order.

Moving poison damage to the beginning of the poisoned person's turn would solve the problem of getting/losing EM based on whether you have a weapon out or not, which is my main point.

Understand, I am not lobbying for a change that would happen to benefit my own deck.  It doesn't really matter whether being poisoned means no EM or not... I just want the concept to be applied consistently throughout the game.

[TheMadEvil]

What I'm trying to say, though, is whenever the poison damage is applied after you attack until you attack again, it doesn't matter. When you attack is when EM matters, so if poison is given any time between your heal and your attack, which are pretty much the same, you don't get EM.

You attack, you heal, full health. Opponent's turn. Your turn, Poison Damage. You attack, opponent dies before you heal.
Whether poison during opponent's turn, after your attack, or before your attack, it might as well all be counted as the same.
That is what I am trying to say.

[TheMonolith]

We agree.

I call it 'the beginning of my turn', and you call it 'before I attack'.

[guolin]

Even in my rainbow deck, Miracles are VERY useful. First of all, combined with Empathetic/Feral Bonds, you can get easy EM's. Secondly, they have saved me when playing level 3+'s, especially when combined with 1 or 2 FFQ's.

EDIT: Whoops, somehow I posted in the wrong thread. =/