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Lanidrak

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A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23733#msg23733
« on: February 06, 2010, 10:24:23 pm »
Okay, so, there has been a hot debate (not sexy, but seems to cause a lot of angst and anger in some cases) about Immortality/Quintessence etc.

Simply, Immortality. Love it? Hate it? Wish the game didn't have it? Wish the game had a way to remove it? Should Shields affect it? What's the scoop? Too many questions? Too soon?

Well, I'm just going to make a simple poll, with a simple suggestion and leave the rest to you lot.

My suggestion is this: Immortal cards should not be able to die. Fair right? BUT, they should be able to be targeted by any effect which does not damage/or kill them.

Examples:
Freeze/Congeal, Antimatter, Rewind Time; these all work on Immortal Creatures.
Firebolt, Lightning, Devour, Paradox; these on the other hand, don't work on Immortal Creatures.

So, if this is the case of what I am suggesting, then there should be a new 'status': Ethereal.

Creatures with the Ethereal status, cannot be targeted. At all. Even by shields. Maybe Quintessence should make creatures Ethereal. Not sure.

I kept it short and sweet. Discuss please.

Lanidrak

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23738#msg23738
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2010, 10:32:57 pm »
Lol. I'm not too sure who took the proverbial jam out of your forum donut, Bob. Looks like you're on your best behavior until that you're no longer under the surveillance :)

bobcamel

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23740#msg23740
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 10:35:40 pm »
What do you mean by jam? Also, me best behavior is yet to come... Well, in a hour or two, when I log off.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=942.0 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=942.0)

Offline Glitch

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23801#msg23801
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 02:14:05 am »
Despite the shouting and yelling about cards that can remove immortality, somehow I doubt anyone will actually put one in their deck.

Oh well, still voted because I want one.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23852#msg23852
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 04:44:53 am »
Me and Bobcamel have discussed the Immortal/Ethereal split extensively before. You even suggested "Ethereal" as the new status, same as us. I'm not saying that you stole our idea; it's only a coincidence.

My suggestion:

 :time : Immortal - When the creature dies, it is rewinded instead. This can be lobotomized.
 :aether : Ethereal - The creature cannot be targeted.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Lanidrak

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23893#msg23893
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 12:27:52 pm »
Yep, I didn't realize there had been a discussion about this before.

Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, but in practice I'm not so keen on it. Take this for example,

An Otyugh devours an Immortal creature, that Otyugh gains +1/+1 and the creature is returned to your hand? Obviously you would want to play that creature again, but that will just eat up your Quanta and make the enemies Otyugh stronger.

Another example, your immortal creature is a 5/1, making it the perfect target for paradox. All your opponent needs in play is a Maxwell's Demon or a mutation with Paradox, again, you would lose your immortal card every time you played it - and generally speaking, putting a creature into play costs more than certain abilities to remove creatures: 'Devour' and 'Paradox' being the two most obvious.

My suggestion is slightly different:
 :time Immortal: Immune to damaging effects*.
 :aether Ethereal: Cannot be targetted.

*Damaging effects include: Firebolt, Icebolt, Drain Life, Paradox, Chaos Seed, Aflatoxin, Poison, Infection, Gravity Pull, Devour, Rage Potion, Rain of Fire, Fire Shield, Inflate, Holy Light, Thunderstorm, Owl/Eagle Eyes Attack and Lightning.

Every other effect in the game, will still apply to Immortal creatures. The alternative will be to give Immortal creatures infinite hit points, therefore making it impossible to remove them from the game through damage effects, but then, this would lead to the obvious abuse of Gravity Pull etc....

Ethereal creatures simply cannot be targeted, now I'm not sure if this should leave them open to damage from global effects? Such as Rain of Fire which does not specifically target something - another example would be Animate Weapon on the already immaterial Morning Glory weapon. Or whether Ethereal creatures should work like the immortality in the game already, completely immune to anything and everything.

bobcamel

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23897#msg23897
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 01:26:12 pm »
Rain of Fire targets every enemy creature. Get your "no target" and "target all" separated.

Also, as I linked...

 :time: Immortal: When reduced to 0 HP, this card is not removed from the field.
 :aether: Immaterial: As it is now.

akromat

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23903#msg23903
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 01:50:54 pm »
My suggestion is slightly different:
 :time Immortal: Immune to damaging effects*.
 :aether Ethereal: Cannot be targetted.

*Damaging effects include: Firebolt, Icebolt, Drain Life, Paradox, Chaos Seed, Aflatoxin, Poison, Infection, Gravity Pull, Devour, Rage Potion, Rain of Fire, Fire Shield, Inflate, Holy Light, Thunderstorm, Owl/Eagle Eyes Attack and Lightning.
This is what I would like to see done.

Delreich

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23915#msg23915
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 02:36:44 pm »
Rain of Fire targets every enemy creature. Get your "no target" and "target all" separated.
No it doesn't. There's nothing about RoF or Plague or the others that target. They blast the whole area.

If you want the status to make stuff immune to spells and abilities, then say so.

Kael Hate

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23917#msg23917
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 02:45:09 pm »
Rain of Fire targets every enemy creature. Get your "no target" and "target all" separated.
No it doesn't. There's nothing about RoF or Plague or the others that target. They blast the whole area.

If you want the status to make stuff immune to spells and abilities, then say so.
Actually Bobcamel is somewhat right here. For Rain of Fire The code targets all creatures with an effect that does 3 damage. Its not a logical conclusion if you have played games like Magic where Targeting is strictly an act of picking a target but thats how it is in elements.

If you'd wish it not to target, a code change would have to be made.

Lanidrak

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23918#msg23918
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 02:48:11 pm »
My suggestion is slightly different:
 :time Immortal: Immune to damaging effects*.
 :aether Ethereal: Cannot be targetted.

*Damaging effects include: Firebolt, Icebolt, Drain Life, Paradox, Chaos Seed, Aflatoxin, Poison, Infection, Gravity Pull, Devour, Rage Potion, Rain of Fire, Fire Shield, Inflate, Holy Light, Thunderstorm, Owl/Eagle Eyes Attack and Lightning.
This is what I would like to see done.
Thank you. Someone who makes sense :).

Beneficial effects which can target immortals are: Chaos Power, Blessing, Parallel Universe, Adrenaline, Momentum, Quintessence - makes the Immortal creature Ethereal.

Negative effects which can target immortals are: Antimatter, Procrastination shield effect, Freeze/Congeal, Rewind Time, Mutate, Permafrost shield effect,

Effects which can counter immortality are: Liquid Shadow - it removes all previous skills and then poisons? And, Immolation, a handy way of removing your own immortal if the opponent antimatters him.

So there is an equal mix of cards which can effectively disable/remove Immortals, there are the cards which can improve and enhance Immortals, and there are two specific cards which can indirectly remove Immortality.

Your thoughts on these aspects of the game would be nice.

Lanidrak

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Re: A dreaded suggestion regarding Immortality. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2839.msg23919#msg23919
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 02:51:39 pm »
Rain of Fire targets every enemy creature. Get your "no target" and "target all" separated.
No it doesn't. There's nothing about RoF or Plague or the others that target. They blast the whole area.

If you want the status to make stuff immune to spells and abilities, then say so.
Actually Bobcamel is somewhat right here. For Rain of Fire The code targets all creatures with an effect that does 3 damage. Its not a logical conclusion if you have played games like Magic where Targeting is strictly an act of picking a target but thats how it is in elements.

If you'd wish it not to target, a code change would have to be made.
Okay okay, in my opinion Plague and Rain of Fire do not target something so therefore should be able to hit Ethereal creatures but not Immortals (since they do damage).

It is all semantics. This is for discussing the idea, and no offense, but the point is being missed that Immortals are not affected by damaging (Plague and Rain of Fire), and Ethereal's are not affected by anything that requires a target.

Like I said, it is all semantics. Potato, pohtahto. Personally I think Rain of Fire and Plague are global, and therefore should damage everything (except Immortals, immune to damage). Whereas Ethereal's have their own strength in being able to avoid pretty much anything (except Rain of Fire and Plague). See my post above this one.

 

anything
blarg: