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Offline Marvaddin

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474321#msg474321
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2012, 10:01:31 pm »
RIP to SPLAT/poison dial, needed long time now. Trying to make space for 3 of those in all my decks  :P
Mark of water, compensate the quanta production with other pillars/pendulums
Does this mean you don't usually use mark of water? :o People, you so weird.

I actually see some usage for these in bows. Probably not speedbows, possibly controlbows. And arena speedbows.

All in all, this actually seems more like an anti-farming measure. I still like it.
Fantastic how zanz can nerf any deck that is being used, huh? In his dreams, I bet all cards are played exactly the same amount.
What is the alternative? The metagame should never be dominated by one strategy for too long.
There will always be a dominant deck, people are crazy enough to measure stats of each deck and compare, and go for the one with 1-2% more win rate or less turns to win. Keep endlessly shooting at all these decks seems the most stupid thing to me. Want do it the right way? Then create more cards, that will allow other strategies, and a better one / more efficient will come. Looks like zanz spend no time at card forge and too much time checking cards usage stats.
He also can transform SoGs in a totally crap card just to them add a much more powerfull shard. Now hes trying to correct that. Interesting. Whats the next step if this doesnt work?
What are you talking about?  I don't understand your line of reasoning.
Im talking about how people used to complain about SoGs, then he nerfed it A LOT, and create cards that are much worse to the metagame. Things like this are non-sense in my book. AND, hes not done, he will f*ck the metagame even more with things like that Shard of Focus.
I dont see this being REALLY effective as anti-farming. Will AI keep it in hand until you use SoSa? If so, its useless if you dont play it, and turns Purify into a dead card against other decks (currently it has a small healing effect). If its instantly played like now, will work anti-farming just when AI draws it in the exact turn.
You're forgetting that purify isn't exactly a common card. It's like saying quanta denial and nightmare are useless because sanctuary exists. In addition, the small healing effect still stacks.
What are you taling about? Im talking about how AI use Purify. As a healing card (vs non poison decks), the effect is higher when played earlier. And this is how AI plays it now. To use it effectively vs poison or sacrifice decks, AI need draw it in the exact moment its needed, or keep it in hand once its drawn. If the AI is programmed this way, to keep the card in hand, on other hand, it will be useless, a dead card, vs non poison / sacrifice decks.
On a side note, better he starts to think already about future counters to some of the new shards.
Just to say: I like the Purify buff. Remove poison of creatures is ok, and I always think this card should do it, or we could have it as a creature skill or something. About removing sacrifice effect... I hate the new shards, and to me they are a damnation to this game, we will soon play Shards the game. So, to me, if these shards are removed at all I wouldnt even complain.

What Im never happy about is the way zanz ALWAYS nerfs all of our most effective decks. Anti-farming measure, like someone said? C'mon, its hateful how zanz wants keep us losing in PVE. Like if he thinks "hmmm, you spent hours and hours grinding to gather money, you spent a lot of time to get the new shards on the new arena, you tested it a lot to have solid stats and compare versions, you put a lot of effort in this deck, and now you want it effective? No way, baby! *NERFS most important card*". Just seems he hates the users, or is a FG's and Arena FG's peon, or maybe both.

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474368#msg474368
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2012, 01:01:42 am »
RIP to SPLAT/poison dial, needed long time now. Trying to make space for 3 of those in all my decks  :P
Mark of water, compensate the quanta production with other pillars/pendulums
Does this mean you don't usually use mark of water? :o People, you so weird.

I actually see some usage for these in bows. Probably not speedbows, possibly controlbows. And arena speedbows.

All in all, this actually seems more like an anti-farming measure. I still like it.
Fantastic how zanz can nerf any deck that is being used, huh? In his dreams, I bet all cards are played exactly the same amount.
What is the alternative? The metagame should never be dominated by one strategy for too long.
There will always be a dominant deck, people are crazy enough to measure stats of each deck and compare, and go for the one with 1-2% more win rate or less turns to win. Keep endlessly shooting at all these decks seems the most stupid thing to me. Want do it the right way? Then create more cards, that will allow other strategies, and a better one / more efficient will come. Looks like zanz spend no time at card forge and too much time checking cards usage stats.
He also can transform SoGs in a totally crap card just to them add a much more powerfull shard. Now hes trying to correct that. Interesting. Whats the next step if this doesnt work?
What are you talking about?  I don't understand your line of reasoning.
Im talking about how people used to complain about SoGs, then he nerfed it A LOT, and create cards that are much worse to the metagame. Things like this are non-sense in my book. AND, hes not done, he will f*ck the metagame even more with things like that Shard of Focus.
I dont see this being REALLY effective as anti-farming. Will AI keep it in hand until you use SoSa? If so, its useless if you dont play it, and turns Purify into a dead card against other decks (currently it has a small healing effect). If its instantly played like now, will work anti-farming just when AI draws it in the exact turn.
You're forgetting that purify isn't exactly a common card. It's like saying quanta denial and nightmare are useless because sanctuary exists. In addition, the small healing effect still stacks.
What are you taling about? Im talking about how AI use Purify. As a healing card (vs non poison decks), the effect is higher when played earlier. And this is how AI plays it now. To use it effectively vs poison or sacrifice decks, AI need draw it in the exact moment its needed, or keep it in hand once its drawn. If the AI is programmed this way, to keep the card in hand, on other hand, it will be useless, a dead card, vs non poison / sacrifice decks.
On a side note, better he starts to think already about future counters to some of the new shards.
Just to say: I like the Purify buff. Remove poison of creatures is ok, and I always think this card should do it, or we could have it as a creature skill or something. About removing sacrifice effect... I hate the new shards, and to me they are a damnation to this game, we will soon play Shards the game. So, to me, if these shards are removed at all I wouldnt even complain.

What Im never happy about is the way zanz ALWAYS nerfs all of our most effective decks. Anti-farming measure, like someone said? C'mon, its hateful how zanz wants keep us losing in PVE. Like if he thinks "hmmm, you spent hours and hours grinding to gather money, you spent a lot of time to get the new shards on the new arena, you tested it a lot to have solid stats and compare versions, you put a lot of effort in this deck, and now you want it effective? No way, baby! *NERFS most important card*". Just seems he hates the users, or is a FG's and Arena FG's peon, or maybe both.
You enjoy playing against SoSa decks in the arena?  This "nerf" helps farming more than anti-farming.

Edit: You know, you seem to like bashing zanz a lot for things that I feel the community was involved in.  And in fact, all of these nerfs that you keep bringing up are a result of many people being frustrated by them being used by the AI:

SoG nerf: people were annoyed by them in the old T50 (non-farm) decks
fire nerf: people were annoyed by fire decks in the arena
SN nerf: people were annoyed by SNbows, SN rushes, overcentralization of the metagame due to this one card
SoSa nerf: people were annoyed by them in the arena

You keep complaining how zanz is making farming difficult, yet all of these nerfs were partly the result of said cards making farming diffcult in the first place.

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474373#msg474373
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2012, 01:21:06 am »
I like it - it should be a nice way to give a formerly situational card a wider niche.

"Hey, guys?  Remember that totally useless pent-wrench I got from that flea market?  I just made 100% more useful -- I duct-taped a SEPTwrench onto the other side!!"

On other words, when you multiply 95% useless by 95% useless, you're still looking at 90.25% useless.
Not that I don't love the change, but Water -- and Purify -- need more love than this.
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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474410#msg474410
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2012, 04:13:49 am »
Edit: You know, you seem to like bashing zanz a lot for things that I feel the community was involved in.
Well spoken, this is your feel, not mine. My feeling is that zanz ignores the community in 98% of all game changes he implements. Like creating a shard competition and use it, by the way, just to have ideas about what not implement. Yeah, I think there are better options than this shard of patience, or focus, or sacrifice (in fact, this was not in the competition, but wouldnt be hard to create a better  :death shard) or other ones. Who picked these ones? And in fact who picked this shard BS instead of developing elemental cards? Was it a community request, too? Who is ignoring tons of good card ideas approved by the community in the card forge and throwing us shards and a redundant fire card? In fact, not only the card forge, I also feel the Game Suggestion section is also ignored by zanz.

About the nerfs, Im sure hes not nerfing cards because of 'people frustrated about the card in arena'. Considering the electrum bonus for each league, we can assume that Bronze league is by far the most played. And to fresh people that really need to play it to gather a reasonable set of rare cards, I bet Dim Shield is the most hated card there.

Speed, control and stall decks have a rock-paper-scissors result scheme. SN is played because its the fastest card in a speed deck, which doesnt make them super-decks. Nerf needed? Maybe, but is this singularity thing necessary? Oh, it should be a community demmand, too, right?

And something to think about. There will always be something frustrating to fight against. Fire decks were frustrating? Ok, nerf them and they are no more frustrating. But now (suppose) mono Darkness decks are frustrating. Nerf them, and now Light stall is frustrating, nerf it and other deck is frustrating, and so on. Whats the point? Instead of getting more strategies, we get the ones we have downgraded. Its the wrong way to a card game, I think.

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474444#msg474444
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2012, 05:31:36 am »
Edit: You know, you seem to like bashing zanz a lot for things that I feel the community was involved in.
Well spoken, this is your feel, not mine. My feeling is that zanz ignores the community in 98% of all game changes he implements. Like creating a shard competition and use it, by the way, just to have ideas about what not implement. Yeah, I think there are better options than this shard of patience, or focus, or sacrifice (in fact, this was not in the competition, but wouldnt be hard to create a better  :death shard) or other ones. Who picked these ones? And in fact who picked this shard BS instead of developing elemental cards? Was it a community request, too? Who is ignoring tons of good card ideas approved by the community in the card forge and throwing us shards and a redundant fire card? In fact, not only the card forge, I also feel the Game Suggestion section is also ignored by zanz.

About the nerfs, Im sure hes not nerfing cards because of 'people frustrated about the card in arena'. Considering the electrum bonus for each league, we can assume that Bronze league is by far the most played. And to fresh people that really need to play it to gather a reasonable set of rare cards, I bet Dim Shield is the most hated card there.

Speed, control and stall decks have a rock-paper-scissors result scheme. SN is played because its the fastest card in a speed deck, which doesnt make them super-decks. Nerf needed? Maybe, but is this singularity thing necessary? Oh, it should be a community demmand, too, right?

And something to think about. There will always be something frustrating to fight against. Fire decks were frustrating? Ok, nerf them and they are no more frustrating. But now (suppose) mono Darkness decks are frustrating. Nerf them, and now Light stall is frustrating, nerf it and other deck is frustrating, and so on. Whats the point? Instead of getting more strategies, we get the ones we have downgraded. Its the wrong way to a card game, I think.
Disclaimer: Strong feelings below.  I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's a strong opinion and not worded in the most friendly of ways.

OF COURSE Zanz doesn't pay a ton of attention to the community.  But if you compare his attention to the attention of major or even minor game developers, it's incredible.  New cards that are taken from community input(Crusader)?  Zanz has his own life, his own work to worry about and he has to consider everything before putting any new ideas into the game.  Who created the Shard project? Zanz did.  Because it's his game.  We have the privilege of being able to contribute, to have our ideas possible put into the game that we like to play.  If we don't like it, we can play other games or do other things.  That this game has such a close and large community following is a testament to his ability to create a good game.  We are not creators of Elements, we are not developers, we are players.  That we can contribute in such a meaningful way is fantastic, but he is by no means obligated to put any of our ideas into the game.

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474449#msg474449
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2012, 06:14:13 am »
I like it - it should be a nice way to give a formerly situational card a wider niche.

"Hey, guys?  Remember that totally useless pent-wrench I got from that flea market?  I just made 100% more useful -- I duct-taped a SEPTwrench onto the other side!!"

On other words, when you multiply 95% useless by 95% useless, you're still looking at 90.25% useless.
Not that I don't love the change, but Water -- and Purify -- need more love than this.
With enough wrenches duct taped together you get a nice wrench kit.

Purify used to be only useful against player poison
Now it is also useful against:
Infection, Sacrifice, Acceleration, Snipe

And something to think about. There will always be something frustrating to fight against. Fire decks were frustrating? Ok, nerf them and they are no more frustrating. But now (suppose) mono Darkness decks are frustrating. Nerf them, and now Light stall is frustrating, nerf it and other deck is frustrating, and so on. Whats the point? Instead of getting more strategies, we get the ones we have downgraded. Its the wrong way to a card game, I think.
This is true. Mere frustration is not sufficient.

However let us consider for a moment the structure of a metagame. A metagame is composed of 2 important parts: The current deck distribution (what percentage of the time is each deck used) and the marginal player (not an actual player but rather a result of people adjusting to the deck distribution). Each deck has a different set of win rates against each other deck type in the metagame. The marginal player computes the total win rate of using that deck given the current deck distribution. If a higher total win rate is discovered, the deck distribution shifts to include more of those decks until its advantage shrinks to zero.

Next lets consider that one of the main tools for EtG to provide quality entertainment is for it to have variety. This means that lopsided deck distributions are detrimental to the goal of EtG. We see reason to make changes to cards if they increase the number of decks that are competing in the metagame by a significant amount.
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Offline Marvaddin

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474450#msg474450
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2012, 06:24:01 am »
OF COURSE Zanz doesn't pay a ton of attention to the community.  But if you compare his attention to the attention of major or even minor game developers, it's incredible.  New cards that are taken from community input(Crusader)?  Zanz has his own life, his own work to worry about and he has to consider everything before putting any new ideas into the game.  Who created the Shard project? Zanz did.  Because it's his game.  We have the privilege of being able to contribute, to have our ideas possible put into the game that we like to play.  If we don't like it, we can play other games or do other things.  That this game has such a close and large community following is a testament to his ability to create a good game.  We are not creators of Elements, we are not developers, we are players.  That we can contribute in such a meaningful way is fantastic, but he is by no means obligated to put any of our ideas into the game.
No offense taken, of course. I agree with everything you said. Its his game and he does what he wants. Did I say hes obligated to anything? He can just stop developing if he decides so. No one can force him to nothing.

This doesnt change the fact that sometimes he does things that I dislike (like trying to balance cards according to usage). And the fact that I dislike doesnt change the fact that those things will be done anyway.

Whats the point of having a community if people cant say their opinions? Someone thinks hes paying attention to community claims? I dont. Someone thinks hes doing a brilliant job about balancing? I dont. Each one is allowed to have a different opinion. Doesnt matter, he will do what he wants anyway, once its his right to do so. At least we agree he created a very good game, although it could be better.

Like I said, I even like the Purify buff. The thing I dislike is the apparent reason for this, which is a curse and will return, and again, and again... He really wants users life being difficult. 1500 electrum to upgrade each pillar, to me is enough proof of that. "Got an effective deck? - Poof! - No more." zanz troll face, lol.

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474452#msg474452
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2012, 06:39:21 am »
Edit: You know, you seem to like bashing zanz a lot for things that I feel the community was involved in.
Well spoken, this is your feel, not mine. My feeling is that zanz ignores the community in 98% of all game changes he implements. Like creating a shard competition and use it, by the way, just to have ideas about what not implement. Yeah, I think there are better options than this shard of patience, or focus, or sacrifice (in fact, this was not in the competition, but wouldnt be hard to create a better  :death shard) or other ones. Who picked these ones? And in fact who picked this shard BS instead of developing elemental cards? Was it a community request, too? Who is ignoring tons of good card ideas approved by the community in the card forge and throwing us shards and a redundant fire card? In fact, not only the card forge, I also feel the Game Suggestion section is also ignored by zanz.

About the nerfs, Im sure hes not nerfing cards because of 'people frustrated about the card in arena'. Considering the electrum bonus for each league, we can assume that Bronze league is by far the most played. And to fresh people that really need to play it to gather a reasonable set of rare cards, I bet Dim Shield is the most hated card there.

Speed, control and stall decks have a rock-paper-scissors result scheme. SN is played because its the fastest card in a speed deck, which doesnt make them super-decks. Nerf needed? Maybe, but is this singularity thing necessary? Oh, it should be a community demmand, too, right?

And something to think about. There will always be something frustrating to fight against. Fire decks were frustrating? Ok, nerf them and they are no more frustrating. But now (suppose) mono Darkness decks are frustrating. Nerf them, and now Light stall is frustrating, nerf it and other deck is frustrating, and so on. Whats the point? Instead of getting more strategies, we get the ones we have downgraded. Its the wrong way to a card game, I think.
lol...If you honestly think the past few 'big' nerfs (SoG, fire cards, SoSa, etc.) have nothing to do with the outcries in the forums, then there's nothing I can say.  Dimensional shield is frustrating for most beginners, but since beginners' usually don't post/don't have very convincing arguments, it hasn't been touched.

The new fire card?  There were people saying a fire card was needed because fire hasn't gotten a card in so long.  Why's it redundant? People also kept insisting that fire was 'perfect,' had no holes, etc.  Maybe that had something to do with it?

Your rock-paper-scissor argument falls apart when you consider that speed decks are so good that the other deck types both lose.

As for your issue with all the nerfing, take a look at yugioh.  That is the result of putting out "new strategies" to attempt to counter or one-up the current top strategies.  All you eventually get is power creep.  In other words, if zanz took your idea of making new cards to counter OP cards, eventually you reach a point in the future where supernova will be ignored because it will be UP compared to the newer, more OP cards.

And, as cheesy said, zanz technically has no obligation to listen to anyone. The only reason he should is to keep player satisfaction relatively high so that people will continue playing his game.  From what I gather, most people like most of the things he has implemented, including all the nerfs that you dislike.

Edit:  And yes, see oldtrees' post.  When I said people were annoyed by SoSa/fire decks, I meant both in terms of difficulty as well as quantity

Offline Marvaddin

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474484#msg474484
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2012, 11:08:36 am »
lol...If you honestly think the past few 'big' nerfs (SoG, fire cards, SoSa, etc.) have nothing to do with the outcries in the forums, then there's nothing I can say.
Agreed, this is a matter of opinion, nothing I can say to you, too.

I know nothing about yugioh. But this is of course what happens in card games made of paper. When a card got a more powerful version, there is no way to redo the old ones, which we gladly have when we play an online game. Several cards already got improved versions. And looks like he would really appreciate SN being ignored, I have never seen a nerf like this.

And, as I said, zanz technically has no obligation to listen to anyone. And I like some nerfs, in fact, but I dislike the 'all overused cards will be nerfed' policy. When will this stop? Never, I guess. So lets just start a poll about which decks we want nerf next (not really saying it has influence, but still, who knows?  :D )

Edit: anyway, this is not the point of the thread. Like said, I like the Purify buff. Im even happy because hes actually buffing a card instead of a pure nerf on the other. But if this is really an 'anti-farming' measure, it sucks. I will leave this thread for now.

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474557#msg474557
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2012, 06:42:59 pm »
But if this is really an 'anti-farming' measure, it sucks.
How many times do I need to say that it isn't? This buff is almost completely done to nerf SoSa decks that people keep putting up as their arena deck.   If people felt like giving farmers using SPlat a hard time all they had to do was add some purifies (and I'm talking about the soon-to-be old purify) to their arena deck.  This buff does absolutely nothing that the old purify couldn't already do when it comes to 'anti-farming.'

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474577#msg474577
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2012, 07:51:06 pm »
Purify it's a must have in deck just to counter that boring Sosa ...

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Re: Purify | Purify https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2069.msg474599#msg474599
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2012, 09:06:09 pm »
My Chrysora deck would hate this...nice idea though. I personally think that this would help me a lot and reduces the need for me to potentially quint creatures, and I can counter thorn carapace, which is always in a thorn (pun very intended) in my side.
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