War - Feedback

[Malduk]

New suggestion

Past round of 18 discards, if 2 teams have 2 or more matchups in the same round, allow the smaller vault to call for hero/champion/some-other-epic-name.

Instead of all those fights, two teams fight a single match (maybe best out of 5), where both teams field mostly upgraded deck (say 50%+ of the deck upped) and fight for the greater reward in salvaging / lesser penalty in discards than total of all those fights would be.
Any team member can fight that match, even if he's playing regular match in some other duel (it would probably be the master or lieutenant of the team, whoever can afford the deck).

Why?
- Epicness! More epic fights are always a good thing, and high stakes of a single fight, together with upgraded cards involved adds to it.
- Practical reason: lesser vault has a chance to build one great deck instead of making couple of crappy ones, or suicides or whatever. It would possibly cut down the number of suicide decks, depending on the draw of the opponents.
- Moar tactical space.
- Role playing excuse - 2-3 fights between same teams just means larger war groups fighting each other, not necessarily fighting at 3 different locations; calling your best fighter to solve that bloodbath one on one seem to happen in history according to legends

Salvages/Discards could depend on number of battles that round. Say 75% of total salvages and discards that would happen in that round from all the fights. Ie, for 2 fights, winner would salvage 9, loser would discard 45. For 3 fights it would be 14 salvages, 68 discards.
Salvager takes cards from fighting deck, Loser discards fighting deck + rest of the cards from vault at their own choice.

[QuantumT]

You started arguing for the sake of arguing, so I'll just put out couple of pointers.

1) Yes, roll of a dice by your rules would play bigger part in the event than it is now. Pretty obvious to see since you are trying to limit yet another decision team can make.

That's a matter of opinion at best. As far as I can tell, I'm removing the RNG from one (the matchups for the suicides) without adding any more.

2) I already wrote numerous examples over couple of threads where Vaults are not to blame for suicide decks. You're trying to make this a Vault building event rather than War fighting event.

All you ever said was that teams can be ruined by bad luck. However, it is perfectly possible to build with enough redundancy that this can't happen, no matter which matches you lose.

Building the vault is a huge part of the event. It's possible to lose right at that stage by building a crappy vault. The limitations imposed by the vault are what make War War and not just a series of swiss pairings.

3) There are rules that limit you more and rules that limit you less. Your rules are trying to limit teams more.

I fail to see how. I'm saying they can't suicide against the same team repeatedly, you're saying they can't discard what they want. Why is mine somehow more limiting than yours? If anything, yours is more limiting, because teams will always have to discard, but suicides will only occur as the result of vault building failures.

4) I already wrote how going to extremes is going against the rules, but yet again you choose not to read that part. And yes, using a retard tactic should be punishable by removing the player from all PvP events.

So going to extremes is against the rules? Tell entropy they're breaking the rules because they're winning too much. See how incredibly ill-defined that is?

And you call it a retard tactic, I call it an intelligent one. Why shouldn't you do something that is allowed and will give you an advantage. And seriously, you'd ban a player who never broke any rules just because he did something that would help him win. You might as well say "You can't build good decks, because that would give you too good of a chance to win."

5) I would hate to play in your war.

Good thing stupid tactics like that couldn't happen in my war, because there's no huge, gaping, exploitable flaw in my rules.

And really, you think playing with 36 card brackets and not pairing up suicide matches would be that terrible?

New suggestion

Past round of 18 discards, if 2 teams have 2 or more matchups in the same round, allow the smaller vault to call for hero/champion/some-other-epic-name.

Instead of all those fights, two teams fight a single match (maybe best out of 5), where both teams field mostly upgraded deck (say 50%+ of the deck upped) and fight for the greater reward in salvaging / lesser penalty in discards than total of all those fights would be.
Any team member can fight that match, even if he's playing regular match in some other duel (it would probably be the master or lieutenant of the team, whoever can afford the deck).

Why?
- Epicness! More epic fights are always a good thing, and high stakes of a single fight, together with upgraded cards involved adds to it.
- Practical reason: lesser vault has a chance to build one great deck instead of making couple of crappy ones, or suicides or whatever. It would possibly cut down the number of suicide decks, depending on the draw of the opponents.
- Moar tactical space.
- Role playing excuse - 2-3 fights between same teams just means larger war groups fighting each other, not necessarily fighting at 3 different locations; calling your best fighter to solve that bloodbath one on one seem to happen in history according to legends

Salvages/Discards could depend on number of battles that round. Say 75% of total salvages and discards that would happen in that round from all the fights. Ie, for 2 fights, winner would salvage 9, loser would discard 45. For 3 fights it would be 14 salvages, 68 discards.
Salvager takes cards from fighting deck, Loser discards fighting deck + rest of the cards from vault at their own choice.

This is an idea that sounds interesting and fun to me. Probably needs to be fleshed out a bit, but it could be entertaining.

[Malduk]

@QT: you are either intentionally avoiding things you want to avoid, or you are seriously misunderstanding what i'm typing.

Let me highlight something again: As per your example, the only fix you need is to say that salvaging/discarding must be done in the manner to be able to field as many players as possible. Over the time, tactical discards can save you from 1 or maximum 2 fights, which is perfectly fine, and any extreme attempt to manipulate the rules could be easily punished by whatever penalty you want.

[QuantumT]

@QT: you are either intentionally avoiding things you want to avoid, or you are seriously misunderstanding what i'm typing.

Let me highlight something again: As per your example, the only fix you need is to say that salvaging/discarding must be done in the manner to be able to field as many players as possible. Over the time, tactical discards can save you from 1 or maximum 2 fights, which is perfectly fine, and any extreme attempt to manipulate the rules could be easily punished by whatever penalty you want.

Like I said up there, now it's you who's instituting rules for what a team can and cannot do. And that rule can be completely bypassed by just building my decks such that I have no choice but to discard my own element's cards. Then you say that I would be punished because I was the strategically sound decision.
This isn't really going anywhere. I'm pretty certain that I'm not going to convince you, and I'm basically completely certain that you aren't going to convince me, so can we just move on? Let's talk about your epic battle idea instead.

[Skydaemon]

(I could even argue earth didn't build their vault well because you should have known you would eventually be at the point where stalls weren't usable).

I don't think you've thought through what I'm talking about.

The reason that stall decks become unusable, and we're forced to discard them all is because we specifically landed on 272 cards, which is 2 above the 270 required to field 9 decks.

For example, if we had lost 3 additional cards along the way.  Something that is as simple as having an official sub in one battle.  We would have had 269 cards instead of 272.

What is the difference?

272 = 8x30 and 1x32 or equivalent.  Stalls are basically impossible and every opponent knows it so no point faking.  2 cards leeway, every deck not used discarded, stalls unusable.  16 earth cards average per each of 9 players.

269 = 1x39 5x34 2x30 or equivalent.  One less player, and you can field anywhere up to 6 stalls potentially, as far as your opponent knows of any size you want (after 40 cards it is just huge and it doesn't really matter much).  You have 29 cards leeway, so you can build decks out of it, or store sideboard cards rather than discarding everything.  Not only are stalls viable, but you can field half a dozen of them potentially.  18 earth cards average per each of 8 players.

So you're going to tell me that you think how you land on the edge of this massive coin flip in outcomes, between viable stalls or discarding everything in your vault is somehow predictable?  I don't think it is predictable without manipulating subbing or penalties somehow.

Maybe I don't see how this is somehow some obvious vaultbuilding fault that whole categories of rules should be created to specially punish.  Nevermind the fact that as I said originally, many of these stalls were picked up in salvage, not in vault building.

[QuantumT]

(I could even argue earth didn't build their vault well because you should have known you would eventually be at the point where stalls weren't usable).

I don't think you've thought through what I'm talking about.

The reason that stall decks become unusable, and we're forced to discard them all is because we specifically landed on 272 cards, which is 2 above the 270 required to field 9 decks.

For example, if we had lost 3 additional cards along the way.  Something that is as simple as having an official sub in one battle.  We would have had 269 cards instead of 272.

What is the difference?

272 = 8x30 and 1x32 or equivalent.  Stalls are basically impossible and every opponent knows it so no point faking.  2 cards leeway, every deck not used discarded, stalls unusable.  16 earth cards average per each of 9 players.

269 = 1x39 5x34 2x30 or equivalent.  One less player, and you can field anywhere up to 6 stalls potentially, as far as your opponent knows of any size you want (after 40 cards it is just huge and it doesn't really matter much).  You have 29 cards leeway, so you can build decks out of it, or store sideboard cards rather than discarding everything.  Not only are stalls viable, but you can field half a dozen of them potentially.  18 earth cards average per each of 8 players.

So you're going to tell me that you think how you land on the edge of this massive coin flip in outcomes, between viable stalls or discarding everything in your vault is somehow predictable?  I don't think it is predictable without manipulating subbing or penalties somehow.

Maybe I don't see how this is somehow some obvious vaultbuilding fault that whole categories of rules should be created to specially punish.  Nevermind the fact that as I said originally, many of these stalls were picked up in salvage, not in vault building.

You took that way out of context. Earlier in that same post, I said that the 30 card brackets were a problem that needed to be changed, because of exactly this problem.

My point was merely that technically that could be looked at as a poor decision in vault building/salvage choice, as the possibility of landing right above the limit was known from the beginning. If you decide to use them anyway, then it's a risk you take.

However, let me emphasize that the 30 card brackets are a problem, one that will be fixed in the next war.

[mrpaper]

Could it simply be you still lose 30 cards wit at least 20 coming from you're deck this will allow to discard dead cards easily and avoid suicide decks.  Could also be that at 24 you lose 15 from you're deck (at least).

[Acsabi44]

So I'm a bit disappointed in one aspect of the War.

See, I started to use forums not long before the War had started. In my mind, this is the greatest and most epic PVP event in Elements, and I really love the way it is going on, with lots of planning, clever decks and epic matches.
Not to mention that I feel I became part of the community thanks to me partaking as a Team Fire member.

Still, there is one aspect of the War which is a huge letdown for me.

You see, I thought that the members of the community respect each other, and we are dueling with the noblest intentions in mind.

Instead, what I see is lots of accusations of forced desyncs, maybe even real forced desynchs or timeouting. Heck, even accusations of edited screenshots are flying around. Also, losing players blame various things instead of their deck choices, luck and playing skills.

I don't lke this.

Be sportsmen, people. go Team 

DISCLAIMER: Don' t ask me to say names or give proof about any of this, because I won't. I wouldn't be posting this if it weren't true. I don't have any special case in mind while I am posting this and no recent events are the cause I'm doing it now.

[Malduk]

The issue is not in War itself mate, issue is with players. Some even think that sportmanship is offtopic. 

[TheCrazyMango]

Dont hate the game, hate the players 

[willng3]

True, but any of the things you have mentioned also occur in any type of PvP Event (not just the war) most likely due to:

The issue is not in War itself mate, issue is with players. Some even think that sportmanship is offtopic. 

(QFT)

[icecoldbro]

War wouldnt be fun without at least some drama, not saying we need more drama but i like it as is