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Offline Dragoon

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg206732#msg206732
« Reply #204 on: November 22, 2010, 12:35:09 pm »
Seeing as demand/interest in the war is pretty huge (just look at the number of people trying out)..

What about having 2 squads per element? ....
I also was thinking about something like this the other day.  At first I thought we should go back to smaller teams, but I think the better solution is to split the elements into 2 teams.  This kind of system also has the ability to scale much better than the single team system.  Can you imagine in the future, trying to run a team of 24 people?  It would be utter chaos and an insane amount of work for team leadership if multiple people fail to do their jobs or worse, fail to even show up.

Keeping to smaller teams of 6 makes things much easier for the Generals/Lts. to segue into other roles if someone drops out for one reason or another.  Also, it keeps the number of decks that need to be made and tested within a reasonable amount for a smaller group to do if not everyone helps or shows up.

You could make it so that each group fights all the way through until there is only one team left.  This would be the division champion.  After that, the division champions would fight each other for the title.  This is kind of like the normal season and post-season of many professional sports.  I'm sure there are other things that would need to be considered and thought through, but I think something like this could work.

Offline Acsabi44

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg206887#msg206887
« Reply #205 on: November 22, 2010, 04:47:46 pm »
I like the idea of being able to convert creatures to creatures...
But like I said before, something like this should be heavily limited. For example being able to convert only 3 per turn. One other option would be to have Event Cards that enabled you to do so.
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Offline Xinef

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg206980#msg206980
« Reply #206 on: November 22, 2010, 06:59:28 pm »
One thing I find strange is that on one side, people say it's bad that 'a vault has x*30 cards, x people have to play, and thus the whole vault is visible and no cards can be hidden' and on the other side people want to limit such ideas as in-element card conversion, because they would make intelligence harder and would allow for surprises.

So far there is only one rule that makes it possible to surprise people after they've seen your whole vault, and that is salvaging - you can salvage some cards they didn't expect you to salvage. This is heavily limited, because these cards can rarely be used to form strong decks, you can rarely salvage 12 or so cards from a single element, and sometimes teams even design their decks in such a way, so that in case of defeat the cards are useless to the opponents, and generally losing teams have even fewer choices in this case, so it only strengthens the winners.

So yeah, I guess in-element conversions would probably make the game more interesting by making vaults less transparent in late game and by making the use of your own element more important. And rules such as 'only 3 in-element conversions per round' or 'make it an event card' generally remove such interesting possibilities I mentioned earlier as 'surprising your opponent with a mono deck, when your vault was at 30 cards', and similar cases.

Yeah, I do know the main argument against in-element conversions is probably that it would make it less important to design your vault in terms of in-element cards, eg. taking too few dragons, and then fixing it later, but I guess the rules that limit conversion by saying which cards can be converted into what and a growing limit on conversions (ie. 6 on round 1, 12 on round 2, 18 on round 3 and so on) would limit it strongly enough.

Also, it allows a number of strategies, eg. take fewer pillars, then use conversion to it's limits to produce pillars as you need them (as you lose them), another strategy would be to take a lot of pillars, and use conversions to do in-element conversions as you need them, and then you could even take out-of-element cards in such a way to utilize the rules.
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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg206999#msg206999
« Reply #207 on: November 22, 2010, 07:32:16 pm »
*snip*
I don't really like the idea of teams arbitrarily being able to surprise your opponent. It makes the initial vault building not very important, and it also makes intelligence gathering nearly pointless.

I would be ok with a very small limit, like 6, being used for every round, but if you make it more than that then the war becomes more like a sequential set of matchups as opposed to one continuous war.

Offline Xinef

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207023#msg207023
« Reply #208 on: November 22, 2010, 07:57:05 pm »
I don't really like the idea of teams arbitrarily being able to surprise your opponent. It makes the initial vault building not very important, and it also makes intelligence gathering nearly pointless.

I would be ok with a very small limit, like 6, being used for every round, but if you make it more than that then the war becomes more like a sequential set of matchups as opposed to one continuous war.
Why do you thing intelligence would be nearly pointless?

Because someone might have 6 more devonian dragons instead of let's say 6 stone dragons they salvaged? Because 6 lightnings could be changed into 6 rewinds? Because someone might change a duo deck into a mono deck, and cannot revert it back?

The point is, as long as you use decks that counter mono decks of that element efficiently, there is nothing you have to fear about. And intelligence only changes slightly, because instead of:

They have at least 6 lightnings, because they used them and never lost them. They can have at most 12, since they never could salvage any.
They have at least 6 rewinds, because they used them and never lost them. They can have at most 24, since they never could salvage any.

You get:

They have less than 12 lightnings, probably 6, because they used 6 of them and they never could salvage any. There's high chance they're not going to convert them, since they don't need rewinds in their next duels.
They have at least 6 rewinds, because they used them and never lost them. They can have at most 24+(6*round number), since they could convert some of their cards into these. Quite unprobable, because they don't seem to need rewinds in their upcoming duels, but we might have to prepare against rewinds anyway.
Oh right, we are fighting against Time, so anyway we need to be prepared to face rewinds, no matter if they have 6, 24, or >9000.

Generally, if without in-element conversions, intelligence would give you info that certain team has between N and M of a certain card, with in-element conversions, intelligence gives info that certain team has between 0 and M of out-of-element-cards (often very improbable that it's below N, since in-element conversions are irreversible, and easy to counter afterwards), and info it's between N and M+6*round number for in-element cards. This makes a big difference only if N==0, but that happens almost only if the whole vault is visible (another possibility is that 24 of this card were lost), so it's not a big concern. And, whole vaults being visible makes surprises impossible. Some might view it as not-fun.
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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QuantumT

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207027#msg207027
« Reply #209 on: November 22, 2010, 08:02:02 pm »
Gathering intelligence on your opponents is already hard enough, and that's without them being able to rearrange all there on-element cards at will.

Like I said before, I'd be ok if it was limited to something like 6, still giving you the ability to surprise your opponent somewhat even if they've been keeping track of your vault. I don't like the idea of limitless conversion, as it takes out much of the planning necessary as well.

Offline Xinef

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207049#msg207049
« Reply #210 on: November 22, 2010, 08:19:43 pm »
Gathering intelligence on your opponents is already hard enough, and that's without them being able to rearrange all there on-element cards at will.

Like I said before, I'd be ok if it was limited to something like 6, still giving you the ability to surprise your opponent somewhat even if they've been keeping track of your vault. I don't like the idea of limitless conversion, as it takes out much of the planning necessary as well.
I'm not talking of limitless conversion. I suggested at least two limits: cards can be converted only into similar cards (ie. spells into spells, weapons into weapons, creatures into creatures of similar cost), and a limit of 6 on round 1, 12 on round 2, 18 on round 3 and so on.

Also, what is more important in your opinion? Keeping track of in-element cards opponents have, or out-of-element cards they have?
If you are facing Time, for example, are you more concerned about how many Eternities we have left in our vault, or more about how many Discords we have?
At least I consider out-of-element info much more interesting, since usually until the very end teams keep a variety of cards of their own element in their vaults, so you have to counter eg. dragons, rewinds, eternities, and whatnot, no matter which round it is, when you fight against Time. On the other hand, info that Time eg. lost 6 Discords is much more useful, because it makes you less afraid of discord decks. Info about Time losing 6 Eternities wouldn't be that much useful to you, since we could for example have 10 more in our vault. And we could still have rewinds, even without Eternities. So, it's not as vital as knowing what out-of-element cards we have.

And, in-element conversions affect intelligence about out-of-element cards only a little bit. It only means that we could have replaced our discord decks with mono Time, so if you prepared only against discord decks because you knew that we, for example, can field 2 of these, and then you are beaten by mono Time, it's only your fault that you didn't prepare for any other decks. It's not the rule's fault.
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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QuantumT

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207054#msg207054
« Reply #211 on: November 22, 2010, 08:28:14 pm »
I'm not talking of limitless conversion. I suggested at least two limits: cards can be converted only into similar cards (ie. spells into spells, weapons into weapons, creatures into creatures of similar cost), and a limit of 6 on round 1, 12 on round 2, 18 on round 3 and so on.
The first one is limited in a way, but it still allows massive jumping around in decks. The second one quickly becomes virtually limitless, as by round 3 I can convert enough for an entirely new deck, and later on I'll be able to convert basically however much I could possibly want.

Quote
Also, what is more important in your opinion? Keeping track of in-element cards opponents have, or out-of-element cards they have?
If you are facing Time, for example, are you more concerned about how many Eternities we have left in our vault, or more about how many Discords we have?
At least I consider out-of-element info much more interesting, since usually until the very end teams keep a variety of cards of their own element in their vaults, so you have to counter eg. dragons, rewinds, eternities, and whatnot, no matter which round it is, when you fight against Time. On the other hand, info that Time eg. lost 6 Discords is much more useful, because it makes you less afraid of discord decks. Info about Time losing 6 Eternities wouldn't be that much useful to you, since we could for example have 10 more in our vault. And we could still have rewinds, even without Eternities. So, it's not as vital as knowing what out-of-element cards we have.

And, in-element conversions affect intelligence about out-of-element cards only a little bit. It only means that we could have replaced our discord decks with mono Time, so if you prepared only against discord decks because you knew that we, for example, can field 2 of these, and then you are beaten by mono Time, it's only your fault that you didn't prepare for any other decks. It's not the rule's fault.
Granted, in terms of weight off element cards are generally more important, but it becomes much harder to keep track of when elements won't have to keep enough on element cards in their vault to be able to play later. They'll be able to keep most of their cards off element, and only convert when absolutely necessary.

Card conversion also basically gets rid of the 24 card limit as well, since I can just convert whatever I want anyway.

Offline Xinef

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207064#msg207064
« Reply #212 on: November 22, 2010, 08:46:11 pm »
The first one is limited in a way, but it still allows massive jumping around in decks. The second one quickly becomes virtually limitless, as by round 3 I can convert enough for an entirely new deck, and later on I'll be able to convert basically however much I could possibly want.
Nope, later on you are limited by:
-low number of cards in your vault, since you already lost a good deal, unless you are Antagon
-high value of off-element cards, since you need those to surprise your opponents (yes, using a mono could in certain situations surprise your opponent, but most of the time off-element decks are better used for surprises)
-a probability that you already lost, so no more converting for you :P (maybe using that mono aether against darkness wasn't the best idea for example)

Generally, you can't convert more cards, than you have off-element cards. AND, having all your cards in-element is a VERY BIG weakness. Ability to convert basically however much you could possibly want, doesn't change the fact that it is rarely worth to change more than, let's say 30 cards. You simply need those off-element cards, as is clearly shown by the amount of mono decks in this war :P

Granted, in terms of weight off element cards are generally more important, but it becomes much harder to keep track of when elements won't have to keep enough on element cards in their vault to be able to play later. They'll be able to keep most of their cards off element, and only convert when absolutely necessary.

Card conversion also basically gets rid of the 24 card limit as well, since I can just convert whatever I want anyway.
Nope, since your vault has to start 50% in-element, and early on you are allowed only 6 in-element conversions, when you usually need the most in-element cards. Considering the fact that I've rarely seen a possibility to salvage in-element cards, and the fact that most teams design their vaults with roughly 50-66% in-element cards (I guess, I'd need to check the exact ratio), it wouldn't really change much in that aspect.

And yes, that would help to exceed the 24 card limit after a few rounds, but at least in Time's case variety in cards proves better. I don't know about other elements, maybe having 50 EQs and 50 graboids would help Earth, for example?... well... nope, I don't think so.
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QuantumT

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207077#msg207077
« Reply #213 on: November 22, 2010, 09:00:00 pm »
Nope, later on you are limited by:
-low number of cards in your vault, since you already lost a good deal, unless you are Antagon
-high value of off-element cards, since you need those to surprise your opponents (yes, using a mono could in certain situations surprise your opponent, but most of the time off-element decks are better used for surprises)
-a probability that you already lost, so no more converting for you :P (maybe using that mono aether against darkness wasn't the best idea for example)
You don't convert off element cards, you just arbitrarily rearrange your on element cards to suit your needs (unless I've misunderstood what you're saying, and you can't convert on element cards). Additionally, I will always discard my on element cards first, since I can make as many as I want.

Every team as made it to this point in the war, where I would be able to convert enough to make basically 2 full decks.

Quote
Generally, you can't convert more cards, than you have off-element cards. AND, having all your cards in-element is a VERY BIG weakness. Ability to convert basically however much you could possibly want, doesn't change the fact that it is rarely worth to change more than, let's say 30 cards. You simply need those off-element cards, as is clearly shown by the amount of mono decks in this war :P
I guess at this point I need to know if on-element cards can be converted.

Quote
Nope, since your vault has to start 50% in-element, and early on you are allowed only 6 in-element conversions, when you usually need the most in-element cards. Considering the fact that I've rarely seen a possibility to salvage in-element cards, and the fact that most teams design their vaults with roughly 50-66% in-element cards (I guess, I'd need to check the exact ratio), it wouldn't really change much in that aspect.
What's to stop me from getting as many of an on-element card as I want? Right now the limit is 24 copies of an on-element card, but with conversion that goes out the window.

And it still takes away some from proper vault planning. You no longer have to bother planning out your vault to have enough on-element cards, nor do you have to discard with this in mind, because you'll always be able to convert more.

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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207099#msg207099
« Reply #214 on: November 22, 2010, 09:40:55 pm »
I know SG is trying to eliminate roles, but I'd vote for strategist to be divided into more than one role.

I dunno how other teams do it, but right now strategist is basically 4 big tasks - data collection; estimating opposing decks to test against; strategy about what decks you will use including salvaging, conversion, and verification against vault constraints; main deck tester - none of which scale well with large teams.

I'd actually like to see strategist turned into 3 roles:
1) data collection / test deck
2) strategist
3) official deck tester - it would be nice to have someone who's job it is to be the deck tester for people to arrange testing times with.  Without one, that person ends up being the strategist, which is already an overloaded role.

As it is right now, I'd refuse to do the strategist role again, mainly because it's a huge time sink.  As it is right now, I'd guess in most rounds I'd spend 10-15 hours working on various stuff before I even consider my own deck, and I've had to give up several tasks I'd like to do because I just don't have the time.

Part of this might be because my team has activity issues, but I'm still convinced that many of these issues are structural.  You can't do much strategy until data collection is done - which won't get done in a timely manner by random people without a role.  Salvaging, conversions and vault management are tied by the hip to what decks get built and handed out.  Deck testing happens because you're the person standing there when people are talking about the deck they'll use and cards you do or do not have, and because there's no one else to officially go to for testing - individual players can't test alone.

Duel organizer is nearly pointless.  Salvager or vault organizer are pointless too as those jobs are intractably tied to strategy and deck/card usage decisions.  It actually makes it harder that the strategist can't just update those threads/vault too and has to wait for 2 other people to log on and do it and hope they don't make a mistake.  Call it what you want, but somebody has to decide how the team as a whole allocates it's cards/decks, and that encompasses strategy, vault management, and salvage as nearly a single inseparable decision.  Most of your decks will be fine, but overlaps or competition for rare cards, or which cards to salvage gets decided in a single spot.  If team earth has 7 people that want to use 6 graboids each, somebody has to decide who gets them and who has to swap in something else.

So I'd like to see new roles :
1) Data collector/opponent test deck generator.
2) Strategist (your team decks, vault management, salvage)
3) Deck tester.  (possibly even 2 official people in this role for better coverage)

And eliminate roles:
Salvager
Vault Organizer
Duel Organizer
Substitute


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Re: War - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13708.msg207115#msg207115
« Reply #215 on: November 22, 2010, 10:06:15 pm »
If one role gets more to do than other roles, then you'd better make sure the more active members get those roles :P
I think it's actually a good thing, not everyone can be expected to put in a lot of effort in war, but would still like to participate. And the roles are mostly meant as thread starters anyway, who actually does what is up to your team to discuss.

 

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