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Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg394969#msg394969
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 06:11:50 pm »
I'll add myself to the people protesting over UW's obvious advantages here. Even if you pay 0 cards total from Propaganda + Auction, you start with 400 cards. Winning every round with an above-average 5-3 you get a total of 5*6 - 24*3 = 30 - 72 = -42 discards. So over the course of the first three rounds you discard 126 cards, leaving you with 274 cards in Vault (without Auction costs). And UW starts with what, the minimum cards for 8 players? That's exactly 264 cards, how convenient. Without Auction costs they have 10 cards less than an above-average team AND a huge Vault advantage. I say we either give more cards for the starting Vault (500, maybe) or lower UW starting Vault to less-than-8 players...
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Offline Acsabi44

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg394980#msg394980
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 06:22:10 pm »
I'm worried both about the early huge discard and the advantage it brings to UW.
The solution would be to decrease the first two rounds discard to 6 and 12(or 18).
IMO round 1 discard 24 is unfair when everybody is going into battle blindly.
This wouldn't prolong war much more. Maybe 1 or 2 rounds more at max. I suppose we can take it.

TORB did ask it earlier, but as far as I know he did not get an answer, so I ask it again: Are players allowed to ban less than 3 elements if they don't want to?


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Offline Onizuka

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg394984#msg394984
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2011, 06:26:47 pm »
1.2. PLAYER AUCTION
Players who want to join War will each start their own War application topic where they include important information about themselves like their score and the number of rare cards they have.  Players pick up to 3 elements they refuse to work with (feel free to choose 0-2).  Generals from these elements cannot make bids on the player, other elements can.  Bids for players start at 1 card.

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg394985#msg394985
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2011, 06:30:11 pm »
Like I said in chat, the numbers people have been posting here are wrong and not all variables have been considered. We'll take another look into starting Vault size, but I can say with 100% certainty that the "UW auto-win" is very far from the truth.


TORB did ask it earlier, but as far as I know he did not get an answer, so I ask it again: Are players allowed to ban less than 3 elements if they don't want to?
Players can ban any number of elements from 0 to 3. It was missing in the original version but was added later.

Offline MatrimKK

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg394997#msg394997
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2011, 06:52:58 pm »
I don't see propaganda in the rules, will there be propaganda this time around?  If so where does it fall in as far as a timeline? 

I noticed that it says if you don't not have a total of 8 members that you have to bid 24 cards on remaining players.  Is there a maximum amount of bids you can make to lead to this point?  Or does this only happen if you haven't made enough winning bids when auction closes? 

What if you bid enough on six players to only field 7 decks?   :))


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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395000#msg395000
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2011, 06:55:17 pm »
I don't see propaganda in the rules, will there be propaganda this time around?  If so where does it fall in as far as a timeline? 

I noticed that it says if you don't not have a total of 8 members that you have to bid 24 cards on remaining players.  Is there a maximum amount of bids you can make to lead to this point?  Or does this only happen if you haven't made enough winning bids when auction closes? 

What if you bid enough on six players to only field 7 decks?   :))


I don't have previous experience as a general, but I'm certain it's not a good idea to be bidding that many cards. :)

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395043#msg395043
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2011, 08:01:49 pm »
Om. Nom. Nom. Good changes. Also, yet another war guide :
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28631.msg391335#msg391335
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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395069#msg395069
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2011, 08:19:03 pm »
Like I said in chat, the numbers people have been posting here are wrong and not all variables have been considered. We'll take another look into starting Vault size, but I can say with 100% certainty that the "UW auto-win" is very far from the truth.
I can only assume this means the 48-48-42 games played you mentioned in rounds 1-3.  In order to give more clear numbers I will run a detailed simulation using the new rules for war 4, but using battle results from war 3.  I will also ignore any vault penalties since these will assumed to be ironed out with the new system, but penalties for activity will be included.  I will also include any event modifiers in this simulation.  Also, I will have to assume an average starting vault of 375 for simulation purposes.

After Round 1:

ElementTotal in vaultDuels (48)WLM
:aether362862-1
:earth350862-13
:death331853-2
:darkness324853-9
:underworld00
:life316853-17
:air295844-8
:time273835
:fire291844-12
:entropy273835
:water266835-7
:light260835-13
:gravity202817-11
So light is now down to 7 battles and gravity is down to 6.  I will obviously have to fudge the results a bit starting in round 2.
As a result, I removed a battle of :light vs. :gravity, which :light won.  I also removed a hypothetical match which didn't occur between :water and :gravity.

After Round 2:

ElementTotal in vaultDuels (48)WLM
:aether3568626
:water26075212
:darkness2888536
:fire2558536
:underworld00
:entropy21384412
:time2078446
:death259844
:air220844-3
:earth248835
:light152725
:life208835-6
:gravity82615-6
PENALTIES
 :gravity Replacement Player -6
As you can see using War 3 results probably won't be that useful at this point so I will have to pretty much entirely make up a hypothetical round 3.  I will still use the penalties from Round 3 of War 3.  A lot of these matches were imaginary results, but it still helps give a realistic idea of how vaults will look at the beginning of vault 4 when UW would enter the competition.

After Round 3:

ElementTotal in vaultDuels (48)WLM
:underworld2720
:fire261761-6
:entropy1956426
:water2157433
:death2147433
:aether314853
:darkness246853
:light1224226
:air1426246
:earth1437253
:life121624-3
:gravity31202-3
:time78615-15
PENALTIES
 :gravity Replacement Player -6
 :time Inactivity Penalty -12
 :life Replacement Player -6
# of Matches for Round 4:

 :aether - 8
 :underworld -  8
 :fire - 8
 :darkness - 7
 :death - 6
 :water - 6
 :entropy - 5
 :earth - 4
 :air - 4
 :light - 3
 :life - 3
 :time - 2
 :gravity - 1

Only 2 other teams would hypothetically qualify for 8 matches besides UW in round 4.  If this is how the rules were intended to play out, then so be it.  I just wanted to put the information out there since there was some question as to whether or not realistic numbers were being simulated.  This should give a good idea of how war vaults will be manipulated.  Again, if there is additional unreleased information that intends to address vault sizes and matchups differently, then so be it.  This is the rules sections and many of us are assuming this is how the rules will play out, just as explained.

Offline MatrimKK

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395085#msg395085
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2011, 08:47:27 pm »
I don't see propaganda in the rules, will there be propaganda this time around?  If so where does it fall in as far as a timeline? 

I noticed that it says if you don't not have a total of 8 members that you have to bid 24 cards on remaining players.  Is there a maximum amount of bids you can make to lead to this point?  Or does this only happen if you haven't made enough winning bids when auction closes? 

What if you bid enough on six players to only field 7 decks?   :))


I don't have previous experience as a general, but I'm certain it's not a good idea to be bidding that many cards. :)
Hence the laughing face :P 

I still have no answer to prior more important questions  :-\

Offline kevTopic starter

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395095#msg395095
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2011, 08:57:35 pm »
Questions:
1. If the minimum raise is 2 and the maximum bid is 24, will a 24 bid on someone who has a bid from a different element of 23 be valid? (can't remember that from previous war, curiously)
You can always bid 24 on an active application.

Will there be Propaganda team members? I ask because I do not have a good enough account for battling.
There will not be team members specifically for Propaganda.

I don't see propaganda in the rules, will there be propaganda this time around?  If so where does it fall in as far as a timeline? 
There will be propaganda and the timeline will be similar to last War.

I noticed that it says if you don't not have a total of 8 members that you have to bid 24 cards on remaining players.  Is there a maximum amount of bids you can make to lead to this point?  Or does this only happen if you haven't made enough winning bids when auction closes? 
You have to bid 24 cards on remaining players only if you haven't made enough winning bids when auction closes.  This has never happened in an auction before, but it's important to keep in mind because you don't want to be forced to pay 24 for a player.  As it says in the OP, Masters may only bid on 21 different players.

What if you bid enough on six players to only field 7 decks?   :))
I advise against it. :))

Offline MatrimKK

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395100#msg395100
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2011, 08:58:56 pm »
ty kevkev :D

Offline MatrimKK

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Re: War #4 Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31113.msg395219#msg395219
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2011, 11:40:58 pm »
wait... when was propaganda last war???
I still am confuzzled here...

 

blarg: