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Corrum

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Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg218898#msg218898
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2010, 04:19:56 pm »
I had a thought. 

How about taking a snapshot of vaults just after they are completed before rounds start so at the end of the war people have a better idea of vault building strategies used by various teams and can see/discuss glaring vault building mistakes.

corrum

Offline Shantu

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Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg218901#msg218901
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2010, 04:23:31 pm »
Yep, I would like to see the starting vault too. The discussions are not always clear and.. they are not visual.  ::)

Kael Hate

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Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg218959#msg218959
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2010, 05:54:24 pm »
Back on Topic

ALTERNATE PAIRINGS

1. Each team makes decks up to the amount allowed. Less if prefered. Each of these decks is to challenge another element. An element can only be challenged once per round.

2. If 2 elements end up challenging each other, they duel best of 3 as usual. The loser discards 12 cards.

3. If a team challenges an opponent and the opponent did not return the challenge. The opponent forfiets 6 cards to the challenger.

Advantages -
 - Teams choose where they are commiting players and cards.
 - Teams only have to fight an element once per round and can choose to forfiet cards if they would rather fight elsewhere.
 - No random pairing luck creating an advantage for any team.
Ok I fleshed these out a little more, I hope they make sense to everyone as they do to me.

Advantages -
Rounds can be shorter and quicker because the deckbuilding is a positive action, not a responsive action.
Luck doesn't suck you out against bad matchups.


This is a replacement set of rules for the war. It is suggestion only and not official in any way.






3. STARTING A ROUND
War consists of multiple rounds. Each round consists of three phases:
    DeckbuildingDetermining OpponentsDuels[/list]


    3.1. DECKBUILDING
    Teams may build as many decks as they are able to up to the number of players on the team (traditionally 8 ). Each of these decks must have an opposing team that it will be sent to attack. An oposing team can only be attacked by one of your decks at a time. A team is not required to attack more than 1 opponent if they do not wish to but will be at a disadvantage if they are attacked by an opposing team.

    Example of Time declaring attacks

    :timePlayer
    :death:time General
    :fire:time Lieutenant
    :entropy:time Sergeant
    :earth:time Grenadier
    :darkness:time Rifleman
    :gravity:time Scout
    :light:time Private
    :life:time Cook
    :air-
    :underworld-
    :aether-
    :water-
    :rainbow-


    As a new rule in War #2, teams now have the option to convert some of their cards. This means that they can replace any card in their Vault with a Pillar or a Pendulum of their element. Converting helps teams to avoid a situation where they would be otherwise forced to build "suicide" decks. Converting will be done by the Vault Organizer who posts on the Vault topic which cards are converted, and then editing the Vault. Teams can convert a maximum of 12 cards per round.

    *Illegal decks rule removed* - You simply don't field a deck if you cannot.



    3.2. DETERMINING OPPONENTS
    At the end of the deck building phase all teams will have their challenge card revealed.
    If 2 teams attack each other then a duel occurs. If an attack is not met by an opponent that player has raided the opposing team.

    Example of a fresh line up.

    TEAM:aether CHALLENGES:air CHALLENGES:darkness CHALLENGES:death CHALLENGES:earth CHALLENGES:entropy CHALLENGES:fire CHALLENGES:gravity CHALLENGES:life CHALLENGES:light CHALLENGES:rainbow CHALLENGES:time CHALLENGES:underworld CHALLENGES:water CHALLENGES
    :aether:aether xxx:air Scout:darkness Lieutenant:death Cook:earth Sergeant:entropy Private:fire Grenadier:gravity -:life General:light -:rainbow Lieutenant:time -:underworld Lieutenant:water Sergeant
    :air:aether Scout:air xxx:darkness -:death Scout:earth -:entropy -:fire Lieutenant:gravity Sergeant:life -:light -:rainbow -:time -:underworld -:water Grenadier
    :darkness:aether Grenadier:air Private:darkness xxx:death Rifleman:earth Private:entropy Scout:fire -:gravity -:life Private:light Grenadier:rainbow -:time Rifleman:underworld -:water -
    :death:aether -:air -:darkness -:death xxx:earth Grenadier:entropy Sergeant:fire -:gravity -:life Grenadier:light Rifleman:rainbow Rifleman:time General:underworld -:water Cook
    :earth:aether Rifleman:air Lieutenant:darkness Cook:death Private:earth xxx:entropy -:fire General:gravity Cook:life -:light Sergeant:rainbow General:time Grenadier:underworld Grenadier:water -
    :entropy:aether -:air Rifleman:darkness -:death General:earth Lieutenant:entropy xxx:fire -:gravity Grenadier:life -:light -:rainbow Grenadier:time Sergeant:underworld Cook:water Rifleman
    :fire:aether Lieutenant:air Cook:darkness Private:death -:earth -:entropy General:fire xxx:gravity Private:life -:light General:rainbow Sergeant:time Lieutenant:underworld -:water Lieutenant
    :gravity:aether -:air Grenadier:darkness Rifleman:death Lieutenant:earth Scout:entropy Rifleman:fire -:gravity xxx:life Lieutenant:light Lieutenant:rainbow Cook:time Scout:underworld Scout:water -
    :life:aether Cook:air -:darkness -:death Grenadier:earth Rifleman:entropy -:fire -:gravity General:life xxx:light Cook:rainbow -:time Cook:underworld Private:water Private
    :light:aether -:air -:darkness Grenadier:death -:earth General:entropy Lieutenant:fire Private:gravity -:life Rifleman:light xxx:rainbow Scout:time Private:underworld Sergeant:water General
    :rainbow:aether General:air General:darkness General:death Sergeant:earth Cook:entropy Grenadier:fire Cook:gravity Rifleman:life Scout:light Scout:rainbow xxx:time -:underworld -:water -
    :time:aether -:air -:darkness Scout:death -:earth -:entropy -:fire Rifleman:gravity -:life Sergeant:light Private:rainbow -:time xxx:underworld General:water -
    :underworld:aether Private:air -:darkness -:death -:earth -:entropy Cook:fire Sergeant:gravity Scout:life Cook:light -:rainbow -:time -:underworld xxx:water Scout
    :water:aether Sergeant:air Sergeant:darkness Sergeant:death -:earth -:entropy -:fire Scout:gravity Lieutenant:life -:light -:rainbow Private:time -:underworld Rifleman:water xxx
    From this chart we can easily see who has chosen to face who this round. using Darkness as an example.

    CHALLENGESVSOPPOSEDRESULT
    :darkness LieutenantVS:aether GrenadierDUEL
    VS:air PrivateLOSS
    VS:death RiflemanLOSS
    :darkness CookVS:earth PrivateDUEL
    VS:entropy ScoutLOSS
    :darkness PrivateVSRAID
    :darkness RiflemanVSRAID
    VS:life PrivateLOSS
    :darkness GrenadierVS:light GrenadierDUEL
    :darkness GeneralVSRAID
    :darkness ScoutVS:time RiflemanDUEL
    VSBYE
    :darkness SergeantVSRAID
    Note:
    Where both sides have comitted, a DUEL occurs, the loser must discard 12 cards the winner salvages 6 from the opponents deck.
    Where you have commited and the opponents did not, you have succeeded in a RAID, they must forfeit 6 cards to you.
    Where you have not commited and the opponents did,  you have been plundered and suffer a LOSS, you must forfeit 6 cards to the opponent.
    Where no team has commited nothing happens


    3.3. DUELS
    Players will contact their opponent and try to find a time that suits both. Players have 4 days to make the fight happen. If the fight doesn't happen, both players lose by default, unless one player is clearly more active in trying to find a suitable time. Warmasters will determine who the most active player is, and their word is final.

    We are using a "best-of-three" method, which means that each battle consists of up to 3 matches with the winner being the first player to get 2 wins. Remember, you have to play all duels with the same deck and the same mark.


    3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
    If it looks like a team member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has 3 options:

    1. Temporarily replace that team member with any other team member, including the General. Temporary replacement player will use the same deck and mark that the original player would have used. Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards.
    If you substitute a player that has already played this round then he may only salvage 6 total from all battles he participates in.  
    2. Permanently replace the inactive member by buying any of the players that weren't bought during the auction phase. Price of the player is 6 cards. This new player joins the team as a full member, and stays with the team until the end of the event. A team can do this action only once during the whole War.

    3. Forfeit and take a loss.



    home_wreckaz

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg219526#msg219526
    « Reply #99 on: December 08, 2010, 03:22:34 pm »
    Alright... so seeing there's 13 teams, I actually hope that one team doesn't have to end up going against more than 4Lt/general in a single round... us death actually got it pretty bad this round with 5 generals and 3 Lts and being at round 6, each lost means a discarded deck.

    So I've been thinking about it, since there's essentially 13 elements, meaning 13 generals and 13 Lts in total and a maximum of 9 matches per element each round, we give Generals,Lts and other players a different number of points and each round, a team's matches cannot exceed a certain number of points, else there must be a reseed.


    For example, I'm thinking that generals would be 2 points, Lts 1 points, other players 0 points then this makes total points sum up to 39 assuming the amount of teams are kept at 13.Since there's only 13 teams, having a maximum point of 3 would require a lot of reseeding so I'm thinking it would be best to have maximum point an element's match should have would be ideally 4 or 5.

    This means that in a worst case scenario, one element will only play up to either 4 or 5 Lts or if we're talking generals, a maximum of 2 generals or 2 generals + 1 Lts.
    The above went unnoticed? :c

    Having to form decks against multiple decks with upped cards is a significant difference as compared to only playing with decks with unupped.

    Kael Hate

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg219530#msg219530
    « Reply #100 on: December 08, 2010, 03:29:06 pm »
    Alright... so seeing there's 13 teams, I actually hope that one team doesn't have to end up going against more than 4Lt/general in a single round... us death actually got it pretty bad this round with 5 generals and 3 Lts and being at round 6, each lost means a discarded deck.

    So I've been thinking about it, since there's essentially 13 elements, meaning 13 generals and 13 Lts in total and a maximum of 9 matches per element each round, we give Generals,Lts and other players a different number of points and each round, a team's matches cannot exceed a certain number of points, else there must be a reseed.


    For example, I'm thinking that generals would be 2 points, Lts 1 points, other players 0 points then this makes total points sum up to 39 assuming the amount of teams are kept at 13.Since there's only 13 teams, having a maximum point of 3 would require a lot of reseeding so I'm thinking it would be best to have maximum point an element's match should have would be ideally 4 or 5.

    This means that in a worst case scenario, one element will only play up to either 4 or 5 Lts or if we're talking generals, a maximum of 2 generals or 2 generals + 1 Lts.
    The above went unnoticed? :c

    Having to form decks against multiple decks with upped cards is a significant difference as compared to only playing with decks with unupped.
    The points thing isn't popular or really good on how it works, but we understand the pairirng sissue and looking at other methods

    Offline Gocubbies1212

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg222176#msg222176
    « Reply #101 on: December 11, 2010, 06:58:33 pm »
    i liked the event cards.  leave out the: upgrade all insert element name here cards though.  different, less OP cards in their place.  ;D
    [02:20:36] jmdt: i think gocubbies will win the underworld tourny
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    Offline Gocubbies1212

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg223234#msg223234
    « Reply #102 on: December 12, 2010, 10:36:07 pm »
    whoa where did my post and dragoon's post go?? 

    about just keeping the flawless victory event card throughout whole war...
    [02:20:36] jmdt: i think gocubbies will win the underworld tourny
    I failed to account for the gocubbies factor. - Boingo
    I like to make flying weapons decks.

    Offline Dragoon1140

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg223236#msg223236
    « Reply #103 on: December 12, 2010, 10:44:13 pm »
    whoa where did my post and dragoon's post go?? 

    about just keeping the flawless victory event card throughout whole war...
    Wrong thread buddy.  :)

    Anyway, the same could be said here too, but it is just duplicating information.
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    kobisjeruk

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg223443#msg223443
    « Reply #104 on: December 13, 2010, 03:17:59 am »
    3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
    If it looks like a team member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has 3 options:

    1. Temporarily replace that team member with any other team member, including the General. Temporary replacement player will use the same deck and mark that the original player would have used. Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards. Penalty for using a replacement is that you cannot salvage any cards if you win!
    "Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards."

    i suggest we scrap this^ ruling. as seen in War#2, some decks, specifically ones with the upgrade bonus will work optimally (or in some case, could only work) if the upgrades are intact. having this ruling means replacing General or Lieutenant will have a much bigger impact on the duel (consider the case of Team Time vs Team Aether Round 2, Team Fire vs Team Water Round 4, Team Aether vs Team Darkness Round 7) so much so that you might as well give the winning slip to the opponent instead of subbing.

    consider this extreme case:-
    Code: [Select]
    5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rj 5rj 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2a General deck such as this will only work if you  have the Chaos Power as upgraded. Let say Team Time made it to Round 9 with just this deck alone and unfortunate event befell the general. having the ruling as so will mean certain death to team time chance of staying in the war for another round.

    (you can reason people should not be making deck with focus on the upgrade bonus but thats not how it work. you cant fault people for doing so. you certainly should not penalize people any further than taking away their salvage bonus)

    also there are ways to abuse this ruling to be in your favor if you're facing a general or lieutenant
    not accusing any teams of doing so but if one can predict what the others are going to use and if they can somehow 'manipulate' the schedule, either by rushing or delaying the scheduled time, instead attempting to play while the general or lieutenant wont be around for their duel, that will obviously favor them since this ruling will cripple the general's or lieutenant's deck if they predicted correctly what they will face.

    keep the fights fair, scrap it

    Offline jmdt

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg223471#msg223471
    « Reply #105 on: December 13, 2010, 04:01:52 am »
    Subs need to be able to use upped cards if the deck calls for upped cards.  That will stop all the inactive, rushing, crazyness involving duels with generals and lieutenants not wanting to be subbed.

    Offline Boingo

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg223477#msg223477
    « Reply #106 on: December 13, 2010, 04:36:04 am »
    3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
    If it looks like a team member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has 3 options:

    1. Temporarily replace that team member with any other team member, including the General. Temporary replacement player will use the same deck and mark that the original player would have used. Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards. Penalty for using a replacement is that you cannot salvage any cards if you win!
    "Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards."

    i suggest we scrap this^ ruling. as seen in War#2, some decks, specifically ones with the upgrade bonus will work optimally (or in some case, could only work) if the upgrades are intact. having this ruling means replacing General or Lieutenant will have a much bigger impact on the duel (consider the case of Team Time vs Team Aether Round 2, Team Fire vs Team Water Round 4, Team Aether vs Team Darkness Round 7) so much so that you might as well give the winning slip to the opponent instead of subbing.
    I agree with scrapping this rule.  I'm sure there was a reason for it when it was created, but for the life of me I can't figure out how this helps.  I believe we lost at least one match subbing our general (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,15245.0.html) which, after seeing how close the matches were with the unupped cards, may well have been a win with the upgraded cards.
    Bring back Holy Cow!

    Scaredgirl

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    Re: War #3 Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16468.msg223518#msg223518
    « Reply #107 on: December 13, 2010, 06:13:47 am »
    The original idea behind not letting subs use those upped cards, was that during War #1 Generals were also Masters, and it was supposed to be epic when you have to fight a Master.

    If we talk about the theme, idea is that Generals are Lieutenants are more skilled, therefore have the ability to use those upped cards. Subs are not as skilled, therefore have to use nerfed versions of the decks.

    While letting everyone use upped cards is kind of lame theme wise, it does make sense because it makes the event run more smoothly because it helps to make duels happen. So yeah.. it's probably best to get rid of that rule.


    Related to this, I also want to get rid of the whole "Substitute" role. It was supposed to help, but it actually does the opposite because instead of having a whole team of "main subs", you only have one.

     

    blarg: