4th Trials - Phase 3 - Community Vote

[agentflare]

Q: As you all are most likely aware, Fire has long been accused of as being the most overpowered element. In fact there was a heated debate just last week in chat about this (I couldn't resist slipping in the pun). The "evidence" is strong, too -- Fire has not only won two Wars, but also has some of the best and cheapest attack-to-cost ratios (Minor Phoenix), quickest quanta generation spell (Cremation), cards that are based on a solid and devastating strategy (Fahrenheit, Fire Lance), one of the best and most flexible CC (Rage Potion)...not to mention firestalls usually crush players in the Arena.

Regardless of your personal opinion, please argue against nerfing Fire, as if you were Master of Fire and defending your element. Please present points supporting your argument, acknowledge and counter the opposing arguments. If your personal opinion differs, please state so.

My argument (The 3rd point is rather long):
Fire is the speediest element. Of that, there is little doubt. However, Fire has quite a few glaring vulnerabilities.

1. Low hp.

Although you can argue that Golems can grow, and phoenixes are very hard to kill, the fact is that early CC can slow a Fire deck down greatly. I really don't think anyone disagrees with this point.

2. Lack of stalling capability.
Yes, I know you're thinking "WTF, FIRE SHIELD CAN STALL!" but the thing is that Fire shield blocks no damage, and Fire Stalls require healing from other elements (or SoGs) to work. Fire by itself can only rush. Splashing another element in gives it more options, but decreases its stability.

3. Nerfing Fire=Crippling Fire.

Suppose Zanzarino listened to the critics. Say... he nerfed immolation and now it produces only 6  quanta. That just crippled a lot of decks and hurt Fire a lot overall. But that was only a slight nerf right? Well let's look at why it crippled fire.

Let's look at kevkev's grabbix.

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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 590 590 590 590 590 5c1 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9
Since a phoenix costs 7 and our theoretical immolation gives 6 , we can't immolate a photon to play a phoenix, and we couldn't immolate the phoenix to play another phoenix+ other 2 cost off-element cards. The deck is pretty crippled.

Let's take another deck for an example. The simple fire rush (VnG)

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4t5 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f2 5f6 5f6 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fb 5fc 5fc 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9
With the theoretical nerf to immolation, immoing a photon gives you *just enough* to play a Lava Golem and it'll take 5 immos to get that extra golem, however the normal immolation, 3 immolations is all that is needed.

Let's say we nerfed phoenixes attack to 5. This would make it an unfavourable card to use since the attack to quanta ratio is below 1. This would be a good nerf... except that it would drastically decrease the amount of people who use phoenix. Phoenix has a 1:1 cost ratio and a nice skill. However, to have an attack:cost ratio below 1 would decrease its use greatly since "revive" is a topping sort of skill, not a main skill and use of Phoenix would sharply decline.

Fire is , indeed, a great element that is very versatile. If you were to be obligated to remove 1 non-pillar non-pendulum card from the element of fire, what would it be? Why?

I'd choose Fire Spirit. It's not too symbolic of Elements and it's overshadowed by a few other cards (like Forest Spirit and Lava Golem).

Immolation, Deflagration and Phoenix aren't a bit too much, all in the same element?

Nope. Phoenix+immolation is fine since Phoenix lacking immolation is very weak, and Immolation lacking phoenix is unstable. Deflag doesn't combo well with either of them. Deflag is a splash-in card used in many decks.

What is your favourite deck, and why?

The JMZ Classic or SG's "new" semi-upped rainbow thingy. I'm a fan of well tuned rainbow decks.

So, that bring up my question: TFO, could you point me to older posts in the forum showing fire decks used by you that were designed thinking a bit "outside the box"? That would really help me decide my vote. Napalm and agent, feel free to show me those as well!

Actually, I don't really make Fire decks xD. I just kinda throw decks together around the core combo of Photon+immolation.

LavaRoids (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29164.html) has to be my favourite deck that I made. LavaRoids v1 is pretty good, the legal one is not-so-good.

[dracomageat]

Essence is trying to become a fire master now? I thought he was water aligned.

[EvaRia]

The ability to use Immolation effectively is one of the things that makes fire incredibly good.

What do you think would change in War if all or at least most elements got a form of instant or first turn quanta generation?

[agentflare]

The ability to use Immolation effectively is one of the things that makes fire incredibly good.

What do you think would change in War if all or at least most elements got a form of instant or first turn quanta generation?

I think that some elements would suddenly become extremely imbalanced. I mean, imagine if darkness would be able to play 3 pests on their first turn, or if Time got a first turn eternity, or even now, when someone gets a first turn discord, it's more or less gg from there. Extreme imbalancing occurs for some elements. Fire is very nice with its instant boost (which translates to a speed boost), but some elements take that advantage and lock down the opposition before the opponent can play anything.

[Acsabi44]

Q1, I think that masters should represent their elements more strongly. Apart from being the generals at wartimes, the masters should do more, be an iconic figure, be the "star of the show".

1, Agree or disagree? Why?

2, What did you do/would have done/will you do as a master, apart from being the general?

Q2, In your opinion, which element counters fire the best, and why?

Thank you for the answers.

[~Napalm]

Napalm or TFO?

TFO.  Nothing against Napalm, but TFO uses some less traditional Fire decks and I think he'll take the lead in trying to lead Fire away from a two-tactic existence more actively than Napalm will.

Against you in Trials, TFO used a Fire Stall, an Immorush and a Fractix. In his Arena thread, when he spinned a fire spirit, his deck was a Fire stall with spirits thrown in. I really would've loved to see something less traditional, but I can't.

So, that bring up my question: TFO, could you point me to older posts in the forum showing fire decks used by you that were designed thinking a bit "outside the box"? That would really help me decide my vote. Napalm and agent, feel free to show me those as well!

I actually don't post many of my decks willy nilly. I have some pretty fun ones that I created for different events though.

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5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5up 5up 5v0 5v0 5v0 5v0 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7ds 7dsHere (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,15562.msg217951#msg217951) is a fun one, though the six upgraded card limit hurts the deck a lot. I went 1-1 with it during 12 Lives, but had fun doing so!

by ~Napalm

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5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 61r 61r 61r 61r 7q4 7q4 7q4 8pu

Here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26648.msg363880#msg363880) is another fun one that went like 3-1 or something in Booster Draft, though I didn't use Rewinds every time

by ~Napalm

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6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dn 7dn 7dn 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 809 809 809 809 809 809 8po

Now, I never actually posted this one, but I had some good times vs Matrim with it before one of the more recent Tourneys. 'Tis a bit strange, but hey, it was a lot of fun to spring randomly. I doubt anyone would see it coming

What is your favourite deck, and why?

Well it was a hard decision between Born of Flame (ImmoPhoenix) and Phoenixplosion (Fractix), but I finally decided on the latter. Phoenixes are just so much fun to play and spamming them to your hearts desire is even better! Plus, there is a wide array of utility cards you can add to a Fractix deck depending on the situation. I'll go ahead and post one such variation on my personal version of Fractix.

by ~Napalm

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7dm 7dm 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7ds 7ds 7ds 7ds 7ds 7f2 7f2 7f2 7f2 7f2 7f2 7f2 7f2 808 808 808 80i 80i 80i 80i 80i 80k 80k 8pu

Fire is one of the most versatile elements and therefore gets many cries to nerf its cards.  How would you respond to those complaints about cards such as phoenix, immolation, and lava golem?

Of the three, I would have to say that Lava Golem and Phoenix are perfectly fine. Lava Golem starts out with 1 health. Though yes, it can slowly grow, it's quite vulnerable for a few turns. If you don't kill it in that period of vulnerability, that's your problem. Phoenixes are resiliant, but whether you're using Immolation or not, you have to get them on the field first. With a 1:1 damage to cost ratio, I would argue that they're not OP at all, especially now that there are several more Phoenix counters floating around. Even Minor Phoenix with it's 2:1 damage to cost ratio is fine because it has lower damage. And then with Immolation/Cremation, I must agree that if you nerf them, you're in essence crippling Fire. The majority of Fire's creatures have low health meaning they are vulnerable to creature control. Getting as many creatures on the field as fast as possible is one of the ways around this vulnerability, which is why Immolation/Cremation rushes are so effective. Removing or even limiting this venue would hurt Fire far more than anyone would realize I believe, lending the element itself toward Stalls, which nobody would appreciate I'm sure.

The ability to use Immolation effectively is one of the things that makes fire incredibly good.

What do you think would change in War if all or at least most elements got a form of instant or first turn quanta generation?

As has been previously mentioned, Fire would be nerfed heavily. Again, the low health of the majority of Fire's creatures makes creature control extremely powerful against them. Being able to pull out offense AND defense extremely fast with other elements via first turn quanta generation would hit Fire quite hard. I don't see it leveling the playing field, if that's what you're asking.

Q1, I think that masters should represent their elements more strongly. Apart from being the generals at wartimes, the masters should do more, be an iconic figure, be the "star of the show".

1, Agree or disagree? Why?

2, What did you do/would have done/will you do as a master, apart from being the general?

Q2, In your opinion, which element counters fire the best, and why?

Thank you for the answers.

1.1 Oh I think I'd have to agree with that. Master shouldn't just be a title, it should be a part of who you are. Me, I've always love Fire. For whatever reason, I'm drawn to it in everything I do, even things not related to Elements. Having the title Master of "Insert Element here" should be less of a bragging right and more of a symbol of who you are. That's how I feel about it anyhow.

1.2 Aside from being guilty of loving Phoenixes too much, I haven't done all that much in relation to Elements I guess. I guess I posted a guide on how to create a beginners Fire Rush, after first completing the steps myself. That and the vast majority of my Arena decks are Fire Based decks. Other than that, I'm just a pyromaniac that loves to share her love of Fire with any who will listen.

2. I'm going to go with Death. Death is one of the few elements that can Rush and Stall as well as Fire can, making facing them an agonizing experience every time. Things like Bonewall and some Creature Control completely shut down Creature based decks from Fire, while Poison combined with Creature Rushes stand up to slower Fire Decks pretty well. Skull Shield is also incredibly painful due to the extremely low health of Fire Creatures.