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Offline Jen-iTopic starter

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Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg299661#msg299661
« on: March 27, 2011, 11:41:19 pm »
Hey all Just wanted to say hello to each of you and welcome here - I look forward to working with each of you.

I've been working a while on setting up a draft of our initial vault and wanted you input as we do it.

There seem to be two methods of vault construction:
1) Choose the most powerful cards available and maximize our vault choices for them - we then build decks based on what we have in the vault (The result is probably less powerful decks - but more survivability after loses)

2) Build 10-12 of the best decks possible we then build our vault around the cards needed for those decks (The result here is likely better decks - but we would suffer more from loses)

I propose a hybrid approach:
1) We identify the most powerful cards available
2) We build decks to use and counter those power cards
3) We attempt to use as many modular components as possible
             By that I mean that the off element components from one deck can plug into another deck - meaning if we
             lose with the first deck we can reconstitute it as another deck later.
 4) We build into the vault some sideboard and emergency cards that can be used for specific match ups where we
             are weak - or for later in the war to play rainbow decks.

This would be my list of most powerful cards available:
Discord
Pandemonium
Arsenic
Immolation
Earthquake
Graboid
Sanctuary
Nova - apparently I foolishly forgot this card
Lux Kyrie

Offline Jen-iTopic starter

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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg299664#msg299664
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2011, 11:42:30 pm »
This is a message I got from Gl1tch a little while ago concerning thoughts about deck & vault building.

Alright, as the metagame stands, there are two different mind sets.
War 2, and War 3.
War 2, the last war, was dominated by Discord.  Discord was countered by rainbow rushes, which were beaten by firestalls.  That was the Rock/Paper/Scissor effect.
War 3, Sanctuary was added.  Not only did it completely OP firestall, but it shut down discord.  Everyone playing with war 2 strategy will be using discords, rainbows, and firestalls, everyone playing with war 3 strategy will be using sanctuary stalls.  Regardless of the teams strategy, Sanctuary stalls are going to be everywhere.

They can't be quanta controlled, the healing is tough to pass, and all they have to do is wait for the kill condition.  Water, Light, Fire, Death, and Darkness can all pull it off.  Aether and life can run mean stalls too.  We need a hard counter to stall decks, and we need lots of them.  Permanent control, especially steal, is a must-have.  And we'll need our own version of the stall.  GotP+Nightmare is our hard counter to the sanctuary stall.  It steals sanctuaries, deals lots of damage that's impervious to control, and they have to discard /something/.  We hit them hard, while they run out of options.  Our sanctuary stall is dune scorps.  One hit seals their fate, and endowed eternities stall them hard until GG.  Plus, we can't deck out.  We have a huge advantage when it comes to stalling.  Anubis will probably be vital too.

That isn't to say discord will be useless.  Discord still dominates every non-sanctuary duo, and having a deck that utilizes them is a good pick. 

On another new card note, Crudaders will completely UP air this war.  They provide a new duo to get multiple weapons, and allow the use of sanctuary and miracle and the like.  Expect them in weapon stalls.  Reverse time is going to give us a huge advantage this war, but permanent control is pretty important.

On a less meta-game scale, here are some vault tips:
1.  Pendulums, pendulums, pendulums.  An off element pillar can only fit in 1/12 of the decks we play.  Time pendulums work in ever day, including mono.  The secret to avoiding suicide is pendulums.  You can /never/ have too many of them, either.  Conversion allows you to get them back, so they make great early-on discards.  If we lose, drop some, we can get more later, and we don't lose any of our options.  Plus, a pendulum means any salvage is useful.  We can't bring a duo with all 12 elements now, but later, with enough pendulums, there;s no reason we can't.  Time pillars are a maybe.  Bring some, but not a whole lot.
2.  You don't have enough time cards.  A lot of people think they have enough of their home element, but they undervalue those cards because they have backups.  You will probably salvage the good off-element cards.  No one is going to give you time cards to salvage.
3.  Loosen up.  Stiff cards are cards that can only be used in one deck, like leaf dragon.  You want flexibility in your decks, not necessarily power.  A deck with multiple win conditions is a deck with multiple wins.  Most of time's creatures are stiff.  Anubis, while extremely useful versus stalls, needs aether.  Dune scorpions, while devastating, needs an attack buff.  Unupped, our only option there is blessing.  Deja Vu isn't that great an attacker either.  Dragons + GotP are our only "flexible" hitters.  We'll probably be duoing into off-element creatures, and we can get more of those from salvage.  Pendulums help there.  Two soft counters > One hard counter, because one in hand is worth two in the bush.
4.  The golden ratio.  There's a ratio between cards-in-deck and card-option that really helps deck building.  Normally you'll bring a 30 card deck, but it's nice not to need to bring the same 30 every time.  Having 35-40 cards for each deck option is lovely, but unfortunately, when the deck loses, you're suddenly sitting on 5-10 dead cards.  Sideboards are great, but they can't be too big, and they need to overlap to add more flexibility.  The golden ratio between side-cards and main-cards is vital.
5.  The panicbow.  The only deck that every card fits into is a rainbow, so all teams need to have one.  No matter what shit we salvage, it /can/ go into a rainbow.  Timebows would be lovely, but PSN bows are also an option time has that other elements don't.  Packing 6 novas is not a bad call, even if we don't have a deck to stick them in right off the bat.  Deja Vu + Mutants + Discord is a strong contender for the panic bow.  Mutants /can/ beat anything, discord can slow the opponent down long enough for it to work, and if they steal the discord, oh well.  It only gives us more rainbow quanta.

That's what I can think of right now, I'll help with vault building once our forum section is built.
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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg299914#msg299914
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 06:53:29 am »
I think we shouldn't spread to much our vault and focus on our best synergies. My thought:

Time:
    Pillar and Pendulums: No kiddingReverse Time (plenty): One of our most important card. CC and denial in a single card. This is very useful against Immolation and nova powered deck. A must.Dune Scorpion (plenty): We all know that one hit of neurotoxin alone can kill your opponent. The important is to survive until then. After the first touch CC (pendemonium and cie) is less of a problem.GotP (plenty) Our main rush card. Good with darkness.Eternity (several): same as RT but slower.Sundial (several): Our stall card. Except for light noone can use it as good as us. So let's do.Déjà-vu (several): goes well with all the buffs we will pack in the vault.Scarab (several): I'd like somehow to see a fractal scarab deck (probably powered with Nova). This could be useful against bonewall. It would be nice to have a scarab/pharaon based deck too.Precognition: Some speed.Dragon (some): some punch in the rushPharaon (some): we will probably want quite some gravity cards so yeah obviousProcrastination: Good shieldHourglasses (a few): I don't have much experience with hourglasses in PvP. However, I'm sure it's better than precog for bigger decks.Anubis (a few): I don't like the card but ok we have it and it could be useful sometimes.Fate eggs (a few): always nice in a rainbow (like the mutant it can win your battle alove)a nymph or 2
Light:
    blessing (plenty): combines with dune déjà-vu and scarab (in some cases)sanctuary (plenty): this card will really give us a boostMiracle (some)Crusader (a few): could be nice maybe with eternitySolar shield (a few): It could come a time when we look for alternative quanta sourcesHoly light (a few)
Gravity:
    Momentum (plenty): needed against aether - nice with scorpionBlack Hole (several): useful against every rainbow and nova powered deck. The most succesful deck of last war (scrambled shrieker) is just destroyed by this + RT.Acceleration (a few): nice in a scarab pharaon deck.Titan (a few)Gravity Pull (a few): useful if you don't have momentum
Darkness:
    Nightmare (several): Anti fractal - good with GotP - some more denial is goodSteal (several): We need PC that's clearStilletto (some): a very good weapondevourer (a few): denial + nice if we run out of pendulumsdusk (a few): very good shieldCloak (maybe)
Other cards:
    Earth:
      Graboid (several): One of the better cost/damage ratio and except for earth (and maybe entropy) nobody can exploit it better than us.Earthquake (some): with graboids = good
    Entropy:
      Nova (several): see above.Discord (some): yeah it's like thatChaos Power/seed (some): for the master and lieutenant.
    Aether:
      Fractal (several): see above.Silence (maybe)Quintessence (maybe)
    Fire: explosion.Water: purify.

Offline Glitch

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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg300060#msg300060
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 01:31:01 pm »
I disagree with the small amount of anubis.  It's a quintable hitter, which will be vital against the swarm of stall decks this war.

Offline Jen-iTopic starter

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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg300758#msg300758
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 03:27:11 pm »
Here's a 1st draft of the Vault based around being able to play almost any 8 of the following decks from the decks listed in this post http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23516.0.html

SnoWeb - I took into account your comments regarding the Immorush decks and have discounted them at the moment.

Again please note this is just a first draft and is completely open to negotiation.

Here are the decks the vault is built around.

1.   GotP Stall - 2 copies
2.   Devourer Stall
3.   Dune Scorp (Light)
4.   Dune Scorp (Gravity)
5.   Eternity Stall (Light)
6.   Graboid Rush (Earthquake) - 2 copies
7.   Novabow (Discord Dragon)
8.   Deja-vu Hope (Time Version)
9.   Novabow (Scarabs)
10.   Dune Scorp (Entropy)
11.   Novabow (Mini-Machine guns)

I included a few additional cards to allow for side-boarding - and some of the decks have enough cards we could field 2 copies at a time - I'm missing some cards from both Gl1tch and SnoWebs recommendations - I'm sorry but we have lots of time to still come up with a final draft.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=t1AUXSX0gG5zflkporjDezg&authkey=CJzqt4kH#gid=0

there's the link to the vault - at the moment it is open to anyone who has the link (so please be careful who has access to it) - please pm me your email addresses so that I can set this up so that its only accessible to us.
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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301266#msg301266
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 03:51:06 am »
been taking a look at the vault spreadsheet and so far i dont like the lack of time factories int he begining i understand that we can convert but i feel that since time does have the ability to rush we should at least invest a bit more into time factories
also i think were lacking in pc if were using devorurer stalls and gotp+nightmare i think we need steals also for immo rush we need a couple more defrags also i dont see why we need gravity pull.
i understand this is a first draft but there seems to be alot of tweaking we can do like i feel theres some kind of glory to combine death and time poison stall ?.
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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301313#msg301313
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 06:28:31 am »
My suggestions:
-5 pendulum
+5 pillars

-4 Devonian
+4 GotP

-2 Precog
-4 Déjà-vu
+6 Sundial (can be played in every deck even without light)

-3 Luciferin / I didn't tested it yet ...
-4 hope / i m not very sure about the whole hope idea (but I can be wrong here)
+6 dune
+1 Nymph (who doesn't have one in the team?)

-2 Lycan (duo of  :entropy / :darkness makes it tricky to use)
-2 AM (very expensive)
-3 adrenaline
+2 purify
+5 cards to prepare a deck for Anubis eventually ...

I'd like us to prepare a mono time (with only pillar) deck which runs without the mark. We could then use the mark to power purify, explosion or momentum if needed.
I don't know if we need so many decks. I believe that it is better if we have less but very good and that we can adapt too our opponent. I'd also like to have the opinions of the rest of the troop.
Remember it for the whole war, the more you give your opinion, the more the rest of the team has data to takes theirs (deck building, deck choice, discard, salvage, etc...).

Offline Jen-iTopic starter

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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301487#msg301487
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 03:05:23 pm »
Thanks for your response SnoWeb - I appreciate it

As to your suggestions:
-5 pendulum                     +5 pillars     - sounds good to me
-4 Devonian                      +4 GotP       - no problem at all
-2 Precog      -4 Déjà-vu    +6 Sundial  - easy way to fit in Sundial I'm happy with that


-3 Luciferin / I didn't tested it yet ...
-4 hope / i m not very sure about the whole hope idea (but I can be wrong here)
+6 dune
+1 Nymph (who doesn't have one in the team?)     - oh and pick me the schmuck with 1 nymph total - lol

If the Deja-vu Hope deck doesn't work I'm fine with this change - but we need to test the deck before we throw it out.

-2 Lycan (duo of   /  makes it tricky to use)            - they are easy to play in a Nova deck (but perhaps 6 is too many)
-2 AM (very expensive)                                           - true enough
-3 adrenaline                                                          - Mini-Machine guns needs to be tested before it gets tossed
+2 purify                                                                 - if purify is important sure - we can swing this
+5 cards to prepare a deck for Anubis...                - I'd like to see a working Anubis deck before we do this
   My suspicion is it will cost more than 5 cards - seeing as we have no Anubis in the vault yet either

I'd love a Mono-Time option for a deck - just haven't found one I'm happy with yet - DevilLoss had one that is a good starting place - if you could add that to the deck thread that would be great.

I agree a smaller number of quality decks is key - and while there are 11 playable decks out of that vault the addition of the last 2 decks only added 7 cards to the vault - I'm not 100% sold on either of those decks but they didn't cost much to keep as options.

And yeah -  we need the voices of the rest of our team they'll have new ideas or can improve on the ideas we already have.



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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301809#msg301809
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 10:30:28 pm »
i feel we need to keep the precogs becuase since we cant use hourglasses for they are way toslowprecogs are the next best choice for us to use also for some other things i was thinking this

-2 Tdragons
+2 gotp (the reason gotp much faster and for lower qaunta also gotp nightmare is one of are more solid decks)
+2/+0 precogs i feel we keep them as is or add more (mostly for a mono time rush
+4pc cards (mostly defrag but can include steals)
-2 deja vu theres alot of versatility with these guys we can use them for a number of decks (looks at spikes time life deck) ya that sucker works :D slow and steady wins the race
+2/4 sundials i do agree with snoweb great card for are stall decks and a  good card to add to any time/light duo's
-2 antimatter-im not sold on this either the cost isnt worth the reward
+2 purify once agian a good card to have agiasnt death and life decks
+1 nymph
-4 hope
-3 luciferin- personally i dont like this deck at all it be much easier to add sanctaury toa dunescorp light deck with sundials to stall over a deja vu hope
i agree on adding anubis
also i will post that mono time along with some other right now :P
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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301813#msg301813
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 10:37:18 pm »
Discord is /not/ the strongest card this war.

It was the strongest card last war.

If the list in the first thread is in any order, the order is wrong.  Discord will not be as effective this war, I guarantee it.

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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301825#msg301825
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2011, 10:47:57 pm »
gl1tch has a point discord will onyl be effective as long as we now they arent expecting it otherwise with sanctaury and everyone on high discord alert discord is still strong just not strongest.
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Re: Towards Building a Vault https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23515.msg301876#msg301876
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2011, 11:39:03 pm »
the list was in order of elements as they came to mind - I agree sanctuary is probably the card to beat this war.

Discord still deserves to be on the list however
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anything
blarg: