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Re: [Fire]Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy]Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198446#msg198446
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2010, 12:38:26 am »
Your logic is very flawed.  The Fire deck had an Air mark; your deck did not have an Entropy mark.  Your deck should lose this matchup 60% of time.
This is utter nonsense. I will post testing results for your benefit later on.

No reason to turn this into an argument, anyone can clearly see Hyroen got lucky, but that's part of the game. Congratulations to team Fire.
No need to flame ... just think about the timing of quanta flow from pendula.
    The fire deck needed to draw 2 pendula by its second turn in order to play a turn 3 wings.The entropy deck needed to draw 3 entropy pendula on its first turn in order to play a turn 2 discord, or else it could not get discord out until turn 4.
You should try to listen before criticizing and rejecting valid arguments!

Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Re: [Fire] Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy] Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198450#msg198450
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2010, 12:41:13 am »
In my defence Sir Valimont, with decks such as these, some thought was involved.

These decks were not to be mindlessly played, especially when you're facing a bolt deck or a neurotoxin deck. Skill on behalf of both players was present, and that's something that can be missing in many Elements matches.

Luck might've given me the match, though it could've been Zeru's had I played pillars I had in hand. Instead I chose to not boost up my counters and wait it out, giving me more turns to survive.

It was a thinker, and Lady Luck was not the only one involved in this matchup.

We know :entropy Entropy is strong, this win was important.
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Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: [Fire]Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy]Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198454#msg198454
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2010, 12:44:31 am »
I will post testing results for your benefit later on. Theory is all well and good but completely meaningless without results. When I say 30% to win it's based on experience with the decks (I have already tested them some) and especially with the deck our team built. In the matches, Hyroen drew 3 pendulums both games he won and got an instantaneous and permanent wall. If your concept is that that would happen 60% of the time, you are mistaken. It's not really relevant to what actually happened what marks the players have -- Hyroen had Wings up on turn 2 both games that he won. And if he only gets them on turn 3, he also loses because Scorpions have hit him at least twice (assuming no Discord). It's a lose-lose and the only reason you have the impression it was close is that the Wings went up as fast as possible.

In a nutshell, in this matchup Hyroen has absolutely no way to survive unless four things happen, in this order:

1) Zeru does not get Discord out early. If this happens, Wings won't go up for about 5 turns and Hyroen will have taken 40 damage and have 10+ poison.

2) Hyroen gets Wings up instantly. This can only happen with 3 pendulums being drawn out of 9 on the first turn.

3) Hyroen gets Fahrenheit up early. If Fahrenheit is late, not enough damage is dealt to Zeru before neurotoxin kills Hyroen. Even if everything else goes perfectly, he needs Fahrenheit early and there are only 2 in the deck.

4) Hyroen has enough Wings to keep them up indefinitely. It's not unlikely to have Wings in hand when you've got 6 in the deck, but it's actually not that unlikely that over 15 turns you get a slightly bad draw and don't have Wings. Well, a single turn without Wings against a bunch of 6 / 6 or 8 / 8 Scorpions means certain death.

Literally a single turn missed and Hyroen dies. 30% is probably a high estimate of his deck's win probability in a single game.

If we assume the probability of a deck to win is 30% in 1v1, then the probability to win 2-of-3 is:

(0.7 * 0.3 * 0.3) * 2 + (0.3 * 0.3) = 21.6 %

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: [Fire] Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy] Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198456#msg198456
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 12:46:10 am »
In my defence Sir Valimont, with decks such as these, some thought was involved.

These decks were not to be mindlessly played, especially when you're facing a bolt deck or a neurotoxin deck. Skill on behalf of both players was present, and that's something that can be missing in many Elements matches.

Luck might've given me the match, though it could've been Zeru's had I played pillars I had in hand. Instead I chose to not boost up my counters and wait it out, giving me more turns to survive.

It was a thinker, and Lady Luck was not the only one involved in this matchup.

We know :entropy Entropy is strong, this win was important.
Oh, I think you played perfectly, don't get me wrong. Indeed you have to be careful about pillars and whatnot; you certainly could lose easily by making mistakes.

But the fact is that assuming you play correctly you can't win in many cases, as per my comments.

I will test these decks thoroughly to give you some winning percentages.

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Re: [Fire] Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy] Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198457#msg198457
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2010, 12:47:58 am »
Nice!
Good job, Hyro!

Go team  :fire
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Re: [Fire] Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy] Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198470#msg198470
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2010, 01:04:33 am »
About the possibilities of playing wings before discords in that match, nowhere it's mentioned that the winning deck had 6 wings while the losing one had only 3 discords. gotta boost the chance quite a bit. Also, i agree that the mark also matters.
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Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: [Fire] Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy] Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198474#msg198474
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2010, 01:08:06 am »
About the possibilities of playing wings before discords in that match, nowhere it's mentioned that the winning deck had 6 wings while the losing one had only 3 discords. gotta boost the chance quite a bit. Also, i agree that the mark also matters.
Good points. I will do some testing to clear this up.

Offline Zeru

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Re: [Fire] Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy] Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198477#msg198477
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2010, 01:18:01 am »
I'm pretty sure that people are more interested in other battles rather than testing this matchup over and over again ;-)

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Re: [Fire]Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy]Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198478#msg198478
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2010, 01:20:14 am »
Quote from: Sir Valimont
No reason to turn this into an argument, anyone can clearly see Hyroen got lucky, but that's part of the game. Congratulations to team Fire.
Wow.  Zeru, is it any fun being on this guy's team?

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Re: [Fire]Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy]Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198483#msg198483
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2010, 01:21:40 am »
Quote from: Sir Valimont
No reason to turn this into an argument, anyone can clearly see Hyroen got lucky, but that's part of the game. Congratulations to team Fire.
Wow.  Zeru, is it any fun being on this guy's team?
Of course it is.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: [Fire]Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy]Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198488#msg198488
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2010, 01:33:51 am »
Quote from: Sir Valimont
No reason to turn this into an argument, anyone can clearly see Hyroen got lucky, but that's part of the game. Congratulations to team Fire.
Wow.  Zeru, is it any fun being on this guy's team?
Comments like this make it worthwhile, no? :)

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Re: [Fire]Hyroen 2 -1 [Master of Entropy]Zeru https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15485.msg198492#msg198492
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2010, 01:36:29 am »
Quote from: Sir Valimont
No reason to turn this into an argument, anyone can clearly see Hyroen got lucky, but that's part of the game. Congratulations to team Fire.
Wow.  Zeru, is it any fun being on this guy's team?
Comments like this make it worthwhile, no? :)
Comments like that are a result of your projected attitude  ::)

 

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