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Offline KeepsTopic starter

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We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075195#msg1075195
« on: May 28, 2013, 09:15:37 pm »
I see 'cultural' or 'mentalities' that need addressed:
For the arguments with how many zanz can or will implement, let me say this:

I know of the development issues:  We have zanz whom is the sole developer and this is only a portfolio project that he only updates once and a while.  It's coded in action script and flash both of which are limited.  A couple years I offered my coding experience, database experience, AI development experience, and musical talents to zanz, all of which he dismissed out of hand. 

However, that was a couple of years ago.

Zanz will no longer need this as a portfolio project:  He should have been working now for a while now and that experience is worth more than this portfolio project as is.  In addition, it is no longer showing value of current technologies.  Flash and Action Script are seriously outdated.  If you aren't working with HTML5, Javascript, C#, Java, Air, or one of the mobile device SDKs, you out of date.  Unless you are an embedded C kind of guy.  He tossed this up on Kong so he makes enough money to pay for the server load.  At that is that. 

Elements only has two futures:  1 to die the slow death; which this community has spoken of at times, many times, yet this community drives to keep this product alive because they love it.  2 to mature and grow; to become the next big thing.  I know Xeno and the likes are close to Zanz; if zanz cares about this community or this product at all.  Whatever the community demands he will have to conform with or finally admit to abandoning this product.  If zanz is smart and we can make a convincing argument.  By growing this to a mature level of complexity; A mature CCG/TCG of this type, requires 4 to 5 hundred cards as the core set; this could have the next big money making thing.  Instead of a portfolio project, he could launch his own game company.  He could totally crowd source this through kick starter and reference this as his base prototype.  I see driving the community to push, something like, the community is demanding a 200% increase in cards and by the way they have you totally backuped with all the BA style requirements, launch this in kick starter and have your own company is the best argument I can make.

Would anyone with more clout then me like to back that up.  Anyone else out there with real world dev or business experience like to make the pitch to zanz with me?

As far as submitting.  I had two goals, the first is philosophical, in which putting down 130 cards in a semi-tangible form is needed so people can understand the degrees of complexity and pushing through one card at a time is foolish at best if not completely asinine at this stage.

Based on that, a card idea that as an individual seems cool to others, they are free to submit to the crucible on my behalf or tweaked to their own liking.   

So I've come up with 130 Cards worth of ideas...  I'll start posting them

:aether

Name: Projectionist
Cost:  :aether :aether :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 1/2
Active Ability: Instead of attacking, the projectionist can inflict it's damage directly at a targeted creature or player
Ability Cost:  :life

Name: Electric Fence
Cost  :aether :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 0/10
Passive Ability: Deals 1 Damage to each creature that damages it, can not attack
Active Ability: Comes out in play with gravity force.

Name: Channel
Cost:  :aether :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 1/0
Passive Ability: For every point of damage Channel deals it converts one of each non aether quantum you have to aether

Name: Personal Cloaking Device
Cost:    :aether :aether
Type: Shield
Active Ability: You can not receive spell damage until the beginning of next turn
Active Ability Cost   :gravity :gravity

Name: Warp Blade:
Cost:  :aether :aether :aether :aether  :aether
Damage: 1
Type: Weapon
Ability: Target creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed or 50% chance of inflicting its damage to you.
Ability Cost :entropy :entropy

Name: Energy Flux
Cost:   :aether :aether :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Opponents creatures can not attack or be targeted until after your next turn.

Name: Materialize
Cost:  :aether :aether :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Target immortal creature loses immortality

Name: Mental Assault
Cost:  :aether :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Deal damage to each player equal to the amount of  :aether their opponent has / 10

Name: Phase Out
Cost:  :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Target creature can not be targeted until your next turn


 :time

Name: Time Machine
Cost:    :time :time :time :time
Type: Perm
Ability: Start your turn over again.  All damage dealt, cards played, abilities used, etc, are reset.
Ability Cost: 2   :aether :aether

Name: Relativity (Slower)
Cost:  :time
Type: Spell
Ability: Can target a perm and or creature.  Target's abilities can not be used, provide quanta, or attack until the start of your next turn.

Name: Relativity (Faster) (upgraded)
Cost:  :time
Type: Spell
Ability: Can target a perm and or creature.  Target perm or creature is destroyed next time it's abilities are used.

Name: Death (Ghost of the Future)
Cost: 9 :time
Type Creature
Stats : 9/8
Passive Ability, shields have no effect on death
Active: Rot (Target creature or player gains a -1 rot counter, rot counters double every turn in play)
Active Ability Cost  :death :death  :death

Name: Ghost of the Present
Cost:  :time :time :time :time :time
Type Creature
Stats: 6/6
Passive Ability, Discard Ghost of the Present to Heal 10 Life (13 upgraded) 

Name: Time Theives
Cost:  :time  :time
Type: Creature
Stats: 0/1
Passive Ability: Quanta Trade, takes one random quanta from your quanta pool and converts it to time quanta
Active Ability: Quanta Theft, Takes one time quanta from your opponent
Active Ability Cost: 0

Name: The Father
Cost:  :time :time :time :time :time :time
Type: Weapon
Damage: 4
Active Ability: Relativity (Faster)
Ability Cost:  :time :time :time

Name: Infinite Shield
Cost:  :time  :time :time  :time
Type: Shield
Ability: Starts out blocking 0 damage, each turn Infinite Shield is out, the damage it blocks grows by one

Name: Stop Watch
Cost:  :time :time :time :time  :time
Type: Perm
Ability:  Neither you or your opponent may use their weapons until the beginning of next turn. Ability must be used before your weapon ability is used on your turn.
Ability Cost:  :time :time

Name: Event Horizon
Cost:  :time :time :time  :time
Type: Perm
Ability: Gravity well
Ability Cost:  :gravity :gravity

Next up will be  :darkness
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 01:55:09 am by Keeps »

Offline Fippe94

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075197#msg1075197
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 09:17:17 pm »
There is an entire sub-fourm for card ideas, you should post them there instead: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html
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Offline Marsu

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075199#msg1075199
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 09:18:24 pm »
...and please start with one or two. You will see that balancing them might be not that easy.

Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075202#msg1075202
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 09:21:23 pm »
Oops I meant that to go to card ideas...  Guys I hit the wrong reply to on the wrong window...  can a mod move this please.

Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075203#msg1075203
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 09:23:42 pm »
Marsu,
Whether balancing one or two or hundred cards, when you are talking about as few of cards per elements as we have.  Either way you have huge changes to the game.  It's easier to get 10 out there and balance then to do 1 card, rebalance, another card, rebalance, oops rebalance again, a 3rd card, rebalance again and again and again....  which is why elements has so few cards in it.  The latter just is foolishness.  Get a 100 new cards out there, then do a couple rebalances.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 09:26:13 pm by Keeps »

Offline furballdn

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075273#msg1075273
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 01:28:44 am »
Balancing cards isn't as easy as you'd think. It takes time to balance a card correctly. But at this moment, I'm feeling pretty nice and happy, so I'll be glad to take a look at all your cards for the time being.

Name: Projectionist
Cost:  :aether :aether :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 1/2
Active Ability: Instead of attacking, the projectionist can inflict it's damage directly at a targeted creature or player
Ability Cost:  :life
So sort of like Snipe or Psion? It feels like it tries to do both of those but does neither very well. It's quite expensive, with 3 :aether for 1|2 stats, and it requires a duo cost ability. This is UP in that it is weaker than balanced

Name: Electric Fence
Cost  :aether :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 0/10
Passive Ability: Deals 1 Damage to each creature that damages it, can not attack
Active Ability: Comes out in play with gravity force.
This feels UP as well. You pay 2 :aether for a 10hp meatshield and around 1-2 damage to the opponents creatures. it just isn't worth it.

Name: Channel
Cost:  :aether :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 1/0
Passive Ability: For every point of damage Channel deals it converts one of each non aether quantum you have to aether
A 1|0 creature should be free. Look at what Photon costs. This is pretty UP in that it requires a buff to be useful, and even then it's only really useful with quantum pillars or nova

Name: Personal Cloaking Device
Cost:    :aether :aether
Type: Shield
Active Ability: You can not receive spell damage until the beginning of next turn
Active Ability Cost   :gravity :gravity
This card is too situational, and much weaker than the other shields that reflect spells

Name: Warp Blade:
Cost:  :aether :aether :aether :aether  :aether
Damage: 1
Type: Weapon
Ability: Target creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed or 50% chance of inflicting its damage to you.
Ability Cost :entropy :entropy
Generally, instant kill cards or abilities are a taboo. This card is overly expensive and too dependent on luck

Name: Energy Flux
Cost:   :aether :aether :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Opponents creatures can not attack or be targeted until after your next turn.
Compared to sundial, this seems much better

Name: Materialize
Cost:  :aether :aether :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Target immortal creature loses immortality
Losing immortality is an idea that's been done many times. It's usually also part of the taboo things in elements like instant kills. Besides that, it's overly situational and elemental hate on aether

Name: Mental Assault
Cost:  :aether :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Deal damage to each player equal to the amount of  :aether their opponent has / 10
Situational and elemental hate. Elemental hate isn't really a sign of good game design

Name: Phase Out
Cost:  :aether
Type: Spell
Ability: Target creature can not be targeted until your next turn
So like a weaker quintessence? Why would someone play this over quint? Especially since this lasts only a turn?

Name: Elemental Child Aether
Cost:  75 :aether
Type: Creature
Stats: 50/1
Passive Ability: Generates 1  :aether each turn
Active Ability: Phase Out (Target creatre can not be targeted until your next turn)
Active Ability Cost:  :aether
Nope. Such a high cost is also pretty taboo. Hardly any games go to quanta cap.

And here is a taste of  :time which will be coming up next:

Name: Time Machine
Cost:    :time :time :time :time
Type: Perm
Ability: Start your turn over again.  All damage dealt, cards played, abilities used, etc, are reset.
Ability Cost: 2   :aether :aether
And the purpose of this is?
As you can see, making card ideas isn't just that simple. You need to spend time and effort to balance out a card to make sure it's not too powerful, weak, or situational.

Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075289#msg1075289
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 02:36:59 am »
furballdn,
I appreciate the feedback, but please wait until all 130 cards are listed out before most of it is any of it is useful.  I know it does not seem to match, but when you introduce an additional 50% more cards, the game takes a completely different shape then what you are use too.  To go after a few cards before all them are out, is like missing the forest from the trees.  If you catch my vision here, 40-50 card decks will become the norm and a lot more counter/counter play should show through.  Instead of 4/5 turn rush decks everyone is used too...  it's a different perspective on CCG then elements has taken in the past.

However, In response:

Name: Projectionist
Cost:   
Type: Creature
Stats: 1/2
Active Ability: Instead of attacking, the projectionist can inflict it's damage directly at a targeted creature or player
Ability Cost: 
So sort of like Snipe or Psion? It feels like it tries to do both of those but does neither very well. It's quite expensive, with 3  for 1|2 stats, and it requires a duo cost ability. This is UP in that it is weaker than balanced

Until you buff it, the weaker start is to provide time to counter.  Part of my planned cards set was a more buff cards, and at least one for  :life.  For a better aether life combo.   

Name: Electric Fence
Cost   
Type: Creature
Stats: 0/10
Passive Ability: Deals 1 Damage to each creature that damages it, can not attack
Active Ability: Comes out in play with gravity force.
This feels UP as well. You pay 2  for a 10hp meatshield and around 1-2 damage to the opponents creatures. it just isn't worth it.

Again, if left unbuffed.  You will notice once I am adding time and a few others, each element is going to end up with at least 1 or 2 low level hp creatures if they don't already.  It provides certain room for healing.  Can be combed with many creature's abilities existing and to be introduced.

Name: Channel
Cost:   
Type: Creature
Stats: 1/0
Passive Ability: For every point of damage Channel deals it converts one of each non aether quantum you have to aether
A 1|0 creature should be free. Look at what Photon costs. This is pretty UP in that it requires a buff to be useful, and even then it's only really useful with quantum pillars or nova

But think about how quickly large stores of quanta can be brought under aether for addition quick TU / Fractal, etc.  Then if you cast a buff, which are easy on a ranbow, you could really pull in large amounts of aether quanta.  Hardly UP.

Name: Personal Cloaking Device
Cost:     
Type: Shield
Active Ability: You can not receive spell damage until the beginning of next turn
Active Ability Cost   
This card is too situational, and much weaker than the other shields that reflect spells

It's a natural combo with the card below that you called aether hate but isn't.  Your jumping to conclusions instead of being patient. 

Name: Warp Blade:
Cost:       
Damage: 1
Type: Weapon
Ability: Target creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed or 50% chance of inflicting its damage to you.
Ability Cost 
Generally, instant kill cards or abilities are a taboo. This card is overly expensive and too dependent on luck

Kill cards are taboo, except you know we have mutation, and devour, etc...  hardly taboo...  maybe in this circle, but then taboo might.  And to criticize something fueled by  :entropy as being dependent on luck.

Name: Energy Flux
Cost:     
Type: Spell
Ability: Opponents creatures can not attack or be targeted until after your next turn.
Compared to sundial, this seems much better

Except without the draw, so it's about even

Name: Materialize
Cost:   
Type: Spell
Ability: Target immortal creature loses immortality
Losing immortality is an idea that's been done many times. It's usually also part of the taboo things in elements like instant kills. Besides that, it's overly situational and elemental hate on aether

It's not elemental hate,  it's a counter to a reflective shield, counter.  It's a way of turning on and off immortality, in the hands of  :aether  With some of the buffs and addition shields and effects I have in mind.  Immortality can be as much of a curse as a blessing.

Name: Mental Assault
Cost:   
Type: Spell
Ability: Deal damage to each player equal to the amount of   their opponent has / 10
Situational and elemental hate. Elemental hate isn't really a sign of good game design

It's another form of spell damage, that is a good finisher.  Combine it with the shield above and you would not receive that spell damage meaning it's not elemental hate.

Name: Phase Out
Cost: 
Type: Spell
Ability: Target creature can not be targeted until your next turn
So like a weaker quintessence? Why would someone play this over quint? Especially since this lasts only a turn?

I was listing this as unupped valueds, (unless specified otherwise), In this case the upped would be 0 cost, making it fit in more decks, for those times when a key creature just needs protection.

Name: Elemental Child Aether
Cost:  75
Type: Creature
Stats: 50/1
Passive Ability: Generates 1   each turn
Active Ability: Phase Out (Target creatre can not be targeted until your next turn)
Active Ability Cost: 
Nope. Such a high cost is also pretty taboo. Hardly any games go to quanta cap.

This wasn't supposed to make the list I grabbed the wrong piece of paper, I actually removed it when I updated the time listing.  I had an idea set of Elemental CHildren, like the dragons, but I cut them out on my last pass.  I'm not just tossing out ideas, I kind of had a method to this madness?!?

And here is a taste of   which will be coming up next:

Name: Time Machine
Cost:       
Type: Perm
Ability: Start your turn over again.  All damage dealt, cards played, abilities used, etc, are reset.
Ability Cost: 2   
And the purpose of this is?

Think of it as lucky dice.  So you cast mutation on your own creature, but it killed it, and then tried to kill cast pandemonium only for it to do a nothing for you.  Up, I got a time machine, let's try that again... 

Offline Naesala

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075304#msg1075304
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 04:07:18 am »
Refuting all constructive criticism instead of listening and improving is bad. Cards need to be balanced based on whats in the game before they can be added. No one here will accept "well, this card will be balanced if this other card is added to the game". Elements is unique in that it takes card balancing very serious. While we all want more cards, adding 130 likely unbalanced cards would completely change the game. Additionally, it's very unlikely because Zanz is very very picky about what he adds to the game.

A few comments on the cards:
Buffing (especially with presumed non-existant cards) does not automatically make an UP card balanced.
You dont understand the term "Elemental hate" Elemental hate/love simply means a card that exclusively effects a single element (or a small set of elements). See Holy Light and Nightfall as examples.
I think Energy Flux is fine
Immortality as a "curse"? Rarely, if ever. If you want to buff Immortal creatures, you'll almost certainly use SoW
"Your jumping to conclusions instead of being patient." We have no reason to be patient based on the unbalanced nature of your cards mixed with my before mentioned point of you can't balance based off non added cards.
Even Free, 1 turn quint isn't worth the card slot imo
I like time machine, though I'm concerned about it in PvP. Would need a very noticeable visual effect, and would be hard on the 60 second time limit for turns
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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075308#msg1075308
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 04:42:59 am »
The novelty of Elements is that fact that it does have such a limited card pool and that the expansions are small.

And the last "big" expansion we had [Shards] really showed how troublesome it was to release several ideas and balance them from there.

Everything else is more or less covered by the other posts.

Offline Blaze

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075317#msg1075317
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 05:01:37 am »
I agree with Keeps fully. Also I feel that one issue with the Shards expansion was that they were meant to be very powerful, and rare. I do think it would be better to release a large group of cards you think are slightly underpowered and then buff them as needed.

I think the game needs all the elements to have PC, more vanilla creatures, CC, and other cores of the game.

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075319#msg1075319
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 05:12:43 am »
Well, what are these cores that you speak of?

And yes, it would be nice to have a nice dump of new cards into the game, but it shouldn't be addressed like this.  Each idea should be given enough time to be looked over individually.  Despite what some people desire, it all comes down to what Zanz wants to implement, so just offer a few ideas at a time and work from there.

Also, even if these ideas were all accepted and slated for implementation, they still require art, proper balancing to the current card pool regardless of how they balance to each other, and if the current game coding can even handle the mechanics of the proposed ideas.  And this has to be [mostly] done by our one developer.

Offline regen2k9

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49553.msg1075325#msg1075325
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2013, 05:42:07 am »
It would be lovely if we could achieve this.  However, as Drake and others have mentioned, our developer only chooses to add a couple cards at a time.  I also agree that we need more cards, but Zanz doesn't choose to add as many as you and I might wish.

Also, it's wonderful to hear that you've come up with 130 new cards! All the CI&A people will be thrilled to hear it! However, if you want your ideas to be used, submit them to the crucible.  There are other people who have submitted lots of card ideas too, so the CIA submission process is how we assure that the best ideas from everyone rise to the top - start off by submitting your cards there! :)
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