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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044368#msg1044368
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2013, 11:53:23 pm »
Funny because if you have only burning pillar, it'll instantly die.
Funny because it doesn't. It would die after 4 turns.

And this card design is bad imo because it feels very forced combo.

Trios won't work in this game without either Hybrid Pendulums or single Creature/Spell/(Other) Permanent cards that fuel them. And if a card has bonuses when using other Elements, it has to be UP if played in a mono deck, otherwise it'd be OP in a trio. So it basically has to be a "forced combo", even though, using your definition, every card that costs quantum from Element A but uses quantum from Element B for skills would be a "forced combo" - which is quite a bizarre definition.

Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044567#msg1044567
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 05:20:57 pm »
I'd also be grateful for ideas concerning the wording from a native speaker.
Also, editing the opening post a bit for clarification (Seemed to cause some confusion)

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044577#msg1044577
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 05:41:30 pm »
And this card design is bad imo because it feels very forced combo.

Trios won't work in this game without either Hybrid Pendulums or single Creature/Spell/(Other) Permanent cards that fuel them. And if a card has bonuses when using other Elements, it has to be UP if played in a mono deck, otherwise it'd be OP in a trio. So it basically has to be a "forced combo", even though, using your definition, every card that costs quantum from Element A but uses quantum from Element B for skills would be a "forced combo" - which is quite a bizarre definition.
Cards like this have optional additional costs (using specific pillars in this case) and get addition benefit for doing so. If the additions are balanced and the original creature was balanced then it would not be a forced combo. Creatures with activation costs are a good example of this system. (Ex: Lava Golem does not require :earth)

You could follow this design pattern by balancing the mono version and increasing the number of pillars to activate the abilities.


The wording on the upgraded card is clear.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 05:44:38 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044584#msg1044584
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 05:57:17 pm »
Thanks for that insight on the wording!

Concerning the topic about what makes a combo a "forced combo" (in a negative sense, as it has been brought up this way in this thread) though, I do no fully understand (or if I do, not fully agree to) what you wrote - at least given the unupgraded metas circumstance, a Lava Golem without Earth is an underpowered card definetly, for example in the comparison to Phoenix.
And while one could probably still argue about that, about 80% of all cards from the type "Costs Element A to play, Element B to activate skill" are "forced combos" by that definition, am I wrong?
(Cards like Lycantrophe, Forest Spirit, Graboid, ...)
If I'm correct so far, I'd say that "forced combo" cards are in no way bad/worse than "optional combo" cards (like maybe Flash Reculse + Wings).
Would be glad to receiver another helpful comment on that small excursus.

/e: Ah, just read your edit concerning the card itself. Mh, that'd be possible... It would definetly make this bonuses unavailable for rainbow decks that only splash in some alibi-pends to activate Burning Treants ability.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 06:01:58 pm by Marsu »

Offline choongmyoung

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044595#msg1044595
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 06:26:00 pm »
Funny because if you have only burning pillar, it'll instantly die.
Funny because it doesn't. It would die after 4 turns.
Oops, I tried to write "Emerald Pillar".
So its atk is 3, and 3atk adren will gain 4turns, and hp decreases for each turn, and its hp is 4, so it dies in one turn, now it's instant 12 damage dealer the end tada.

Now, it's a bad idea to use this with :fire :life duo.
And :fire :water duo is already good w/o its ability because it already has synergy with Purify card. I mean, I don't think you really need that ability.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 06:30:03 pm by choongmyoung »
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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044598#msg1044598
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 06:30:29 pm »
Correct then. That might be a funny feature, but it's actually strong enough that I feared Fractal Abuse with it.

Offline choongmyoung

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044599#msg1044599
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2013, 06:31:18 pm »
Correct then. That might be a funny feature, but it's actually strong enough that I feared Fractal Abuse with it.
You mean, even a trio with this?
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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044600#msg1044600
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2013, 06:33:59 pm »
Nope. But this + Emerald Pillar + Fractal, so basically a  :fire :life :aether trio (even though it would only have 4 or 5 Emerald Pillars to trigger the ability, no other Life cards) - would still be quite easy to build and you basically had 12/0 Sparks for 6  :fire.

Offline choongmyoung

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044605#msg1044605
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2013, 06:42:59 pm »
After some thinking I came up with other idea that can improve this idea. How about making a creature that receives buff from all element?
I think this is close enough to your original idea.

For example:
:entropy - Chaos Power is cast when enters.
:death - ?
:gravity - Momentum (+1|+1 and bypasses shield) is cast when enters.
:earth - Plate Armor | Heavy Armor is cast when enters.
:life - Adrenaline is cast when enters.
:fire - Nope. this is already a :fire creature.
:water - Purify is cast when enters.
:light - Blessing is cast when enters.
:air - ?
:time - ? (or Precognition?)
:darkness - Nightmare is cast when enters.
:aether - Quintessence is cast when enters.
Didn't think about how the ability is triggers, but you got the point.

But I see your point of this idea. This self-synergies with Adren and Purify. So if this card is designed, it'll be great to design a card that keeps that synergy.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 06:45:36 pm by choongmyoung »
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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044610#msg1044610
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2013, 07:02:10 pm »
Your idea is quite interesting - however, it is simply a different card and so far, I'm still quite happy with my idea (except maybe for balancing, I might take OldTrees opinion into account there, and everyone elses who is yet to comment), so I'd rather wait how other people like the basic idea.

Offline Zarathustra1883

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044613#msg1044613
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2013, 07:07:08 pm »
After some thinking I came up with other idea that can improve this idea. How about making a creature that receives buff from all element?
I think this is close enough to your original idea.

For example:
:entropy - Chaos Power is cast when enters.
:death - ?
:gravity - Momentum (+1|+1 and bypasses shield) is cast when enters.
:earth - Plate Armor | Heavy Armor is cast when enters.
:life - Adrenaline is cast when enters.
:fire - Nope. this is already a :fire creature.
:water - Purify is cast when enters.
:light - Blessing is cast when enters.
:air - ?
:time - ? (or Precognition?)
:darkness - Nightmare is cast when enters.
:aether - Quintessence is cast when enters.
Didn't think about how the ability is triggers, but you got the point.

But I see your point of this idea. This self-synergies with Adren and Purify. So if this card is designed, it'll be great to design a card that keeps that synergy.

It was the first thing that I had in mind, but decided not to suggest it for a simple reason. I do not think it fits the card thematically. What you and I had in mind might be a different creature which I would put in (Entropy?) with the skill Endow Pillar(Pends) and give access to those skills you worked out.

But that should be another topic.
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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1044642#msg1044642
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2013, 08:51:21 pm »
Concerning the topic about what makes a combo a "forced combo" (in a negative sense, as it has been brought up this way in this thread) though, I do no fully understand (or if I do, not fully agree to) what you wrote - at least given the unupgraded metas circumstance, a Lava Golem without Earth is an underpowered card definetly, for example in the comparison to Phoenix.
And while one could probably still argue about that, about 80% of all cards from the type "Costs Element A to play, Element B to activate skill" are "forced combos" by that definition, am I wrong?
(Cards like Lycantrophe, Forest Spirit, Graboid, ...)
If I'm correct so far, I'd say that "forced combo" cards are in no way bad/worse than "optional combo" cards (like maybe Flash Reculse + Wings).
Would be glad to receiver another helpful comment on that small excursus.

/e: Ah, just read your edit concerning the card itself. Mh, that'd be possible... It would definetly make this bonuses unavailable for rainbow decks that only splash in some alibi-pends to activate Burning Treants ability.
1) Lava Golem (without  :earth) is a 5|1 for 5 :underworld. This is barely weaker than a 7|1 Rebirth for 7 :underworld.
2) There are few forced duo creatures (Parasite unupped, Firefly Queen, Graviton Fire Eater, Lycanthrope, Fallen Druid upped, Schrödinger's Cat, Chrysaora, Steam Machine, Forest Spirit, Phase Salvager). However that brings us to the next point.
3) A forced combo is not a problem unless there are very few variations in creating the combo. Off element quanta can be obtained by Quantum Pillars, Nova, both Pendulums, a Pillar or a Mark. While a forced duo design increases the game variety less than an optional duo, it is not restrained to the point of being a problematic forced combo. If Burning Treant is a forced combo rather than an optional combo it will have only 2 options (Pendulum and Pillar). This is ignoring the detail that Burning Treant is not very usable with only 2 elements.

That was the explanation about what people mean when they say "forced combo" however I feel it is more beneficial to teach the reason behind the concept as well.

Increasing game variety tends to result in a more valuable game that is played longer. Thus cards are judged on their ability to improve the game by this metric. Imbalance either decreases(OP) or does not increase(UP) game variety. Cards with more options have an advantage when measuring by this metric. Cards that require specific other cards in order to function fit into fewer decks and thus are at a disadvantage when measuring by this metric. The more restrictive the required combo, the greater the relative variety disadvantage. A novel resulting effect can partially overcome this disadvantage (animate weapon). However the more restrictive the combo the more novel the effect has to be to overcome the disadvantage.


Nope. But this + Emerald Pillar + Fractal, so basically a  :fire :life :aether trio (even though it would only have 4 or 5 Emerald Pillars to trigger the ability, no other Life cards) - would still be quite easy to build and you basically had 12/0 Sparks for 6  :fire.
While this is interesting I do not find it a frightening example. It would take 54 :fire for the 9 creature OTK. That is well within the norm.


Based on the amount of space we have for text, I think it should be limited to 2 optional effects.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 08:56:52 pm by OldTrees »
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anything
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