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Offline artimies7

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1045363#msg1045363
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 02:59:15 am »
Mmm. I'm interested in this 'Burning' effect. Would it have a progressive influence, as in every burn counter on a creature creates another burn counter?

Or simply one more spawns every turn. <better.idea

Both effects when pillars are played seems a bit much to me. Try just the Water one, or split it between upgraded and unupgraded: Life for unupped, Water for upped.

This was meant to be replied to, thank you.
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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1045787#msg1045787
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 07:37:45 pm »
The question about Burning was already answered, it is basically a poison counter. Except in red.
(Thus basically "soft forcing" a trio, an in my opinion rather innovative alternative to "hard forcing" it)
My opinion to your other point will hopefully be found in my answer to OldTrees. If it is not to your satisfaction, let me know and I'll go even more into detail.

1) Lava Golem (without  :earth) is a 5|1 for 5 :underworld. This is barely weaker than a 7|1 Rebirth for 7 :underworld.

I can't agree here at all. 5/1 for 5  :underworld and 7/1 for 7  :underworld is about the same. (6 total stats for 5  :underworld is slightly more cost efficient than 8 total stats for 7, but the true formula is Creature strength divided by quantum cost plus the fixed costs of having to sacrifice a card slot for it, which gives bigger creatures an advantage)

...but the Phoenix ability is ridicoulusly strong and rules this CC & PC heavy meta, which can be easily observed in the BL, for example. Quite surprised by that statement.

2) There are few forced duo creatures (Parasite unupped, Firefly Queen, Graviton Fire Eater, Lycanthrope, Fallen Druid upped, Schrödinger's Cat, Chrysaora, Steam Machine, Forest Spirit, Phase Salvager). However that brings us to the next point.
3) A forced combo is not a problem unless there are very few variations in creating the combo. Off element quanta can be obtained by Quantum Pillars, Nova, both Pendulums, a Pillar or a Mark. While a forced duo design increases the game variety less than an optional duo, it is not restrained to the point of being a problematic forced combo. If Burning Treant is a forced combo rather than an optional combo it will have only 2 options (Pendulum and Pillar). This is ignoring the detail that Burning Treant is not very usable with only 2 elements.

That was the explanation about what people mean when they say "forced combo" however I feel it is more beneficial to teach the reason behind the concept as well.

Increasing game variety tends to result in a more valuable game that is played longer. Thus cards are judged on their ability to improve the game by this metric. Imbalance either decreases(OP) or does not increase(UP) game variety. Cards with more options have an advantage when measuring by this metric. Cards that require specific other cards in order to function fit into fewer decks and thus are at a disadvantage when measuring by this metric. The more restrictive the required combo, the greater the relative variety disadvantage. A novel resulting effect can partially overcome this disadvantage (animate weapon). However the more restrictive the combo the more novel the effect has to be to overcome the disadvantage.

This is all very true. By this definition, Burning Treant is a forced combo (There might only be two decks that can be built about BT, one with Fractal (and maybe without Water Pillars/Pends) and one that contains 6-7 Water Pends and Life Pends respectively and thus doesn't leave much room for individualisation)

What I don't agree with is that this can be changed without giving up the original idea of this card. This can't have those effects (Even in some altered way), but be decent in a mono Fire. (Unless you use standards I can't agree with, which brings us back to 1) )

I think I'll let it be like this and be honest about the disadvantages:
Advantage: Innovative (hopefully), fuels a certain trio.
Disadvantage: Only useable with a very limited possibily for variation.

I do want to point out that this disadvantage counts for quite some cards that are in the game at the moment though and that noone seems to dislike.


While this is interesting I do not find it a frightening example. It would take 54 :fire for the 9 creature OTK. That is well within the norm.

That sounds reasonable in deed. Agreed.

Based on the amount of space we have for text, I think it should be limited to 2 optional effects.

I also agree.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 08:08:06 pm by Marsu »

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1045899#msg1045899
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 01:45:03 am »
The question about Burning was already answered, it is basically a poison counter. Except in red.
(Thus basically "soft forcing" a trio, an in my opinion rather innovative alternative to "hard forcing" it)
My opinion to your other point will hopefully be found in my answer to OldTrees. If it is not to your satisfaction, let me know and I'll go even more into detail.

1) Lava Golem (without  :earth) is a 5|1 for 5 :underworld. This is barely weaker than a 7|1 Rebirth for 7 :underworld.

I can't agree here at all. 5/1 for 5  :underworld and 7/1 for 7  :underworld is about the same. (6 total stats for 5  :underworld is slightly more cost efficient than 8 total stats for 7, but the true formula is Creature strength divided by quantum cost plus the fixed costs of having to sacrifice a card slot for it, which gives bigger creatures an advantage)

...but the Phoenix ability is ridicoulusly strong and rules this CC & PC heavy meta, which can be easily observed in the BL, for example. Quite surprised by that statement.
My comments about balance are best viewed when observing the scale I am operating under.
In the Buff/Nerf section I have a very small scale resulting in 1 :underworld being a large difference.
In the CIA section or In Development I have a medium scale resulting in 1 :underworld being a small difference.
When talking about forced combos I am using a scale suitable to talk about when something is prohibitive. In this case 2 :underworld is a small difference.
Your comments are using the first scale which is usually the correct scale to use between those cards.

What I don't agree with is that this can be changed without giving up the original idea of this card. This can't have those effects (Even in some altered way), but be decent in a mono Fire. (Unless you use standards I can't agree with, which brings us back to 1) )
The question here is at which scale must this fail. If we can get it to pass the first scale then it is able to be balanced.
We are looking at a creature with:
Cost A -> Creature with a Disadvantage
Cost A + B -> Creature with a Disadvantage + an Advantage (might cancel)
Cost A + 2B -> Creature with a Disadvantage + an Advantage (might cancel) + another Advantage
At this level of abstraction it is obviously able to be balanced.
Cost X :fire -> Creature with Burning
Cost X :fire + B -> Creature
Cost X :fire + B -> Creature with Burning + Adrenaline
Cost X :fire + 2B -> Creature with Adrenaline
At this level there is only 2 areas where we cannot adjust further
  • A creature with burning must be worth at least 1 :fire
  • A creature and a creature with burning and adrenaline must be equal value
If these two conditions do not form any contradictions then we can use them to determine the stats of the creature and thus the correct magnitude of the B cost. Then we convert that magnitude into the type of cost (number of pillars of a type) and viola!

4|3 vs a 4|3 Burning Adrenaline (aka 4,3,2 damage for a 9 damage spark)? Are they roughly equal in value?
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Offline artimies7

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Re: Burning Treant | Burning Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47045.msg1046140#msg1046140
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 03:13:11 am »
Based on the amount of space we have for text, I think it should be limited to 2 optional effects.

I also agree.

The amount of optional effects due to space wasn't my point. (Though optional effects are a great idea and should be explored further.)

I was wondering what the effect might be if you split the effects up, with the damaging Life effect on the unupgraded version, and the healing Water effect on the upgraded.

I also mentioned as a secondary point (and therefore completely optional) the possibility of increasing the amount of damage the Burning effect produces.
In real life, fire spreads.
Therefore, I suggested that any creature with any amount of Burning counters on it would gain one more counter every turn, 'spreading' the implied fire.

I apologize for any miscommunications on my part.
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