Elements 1.4

[Naesala]

I for one enjoy facing an opponent with 900 Hp and an unsurmountable ammount of power that is thought to be unbeateble... but then again, I am one who enjoys a challenge, not a cheat book...

Hey, can you stop being 6 for about 30 seconds and talk like a big boy? Thanks.
I have never once cheated at this game and I would hardly consider using rush decks "a cheat book."

Lol, I'm almost old enough to be your grand father... time to become a big boy yourself, and face change...

No need for either of you to be attacking eachother. Calm down. Different people play the game different ways and have different expectations.

[jarozaoz]

Now, if you understand, MAKE NPC FOR EACH LVL! 

[treebeard xiii]

I think I shall chip in here or this spiel about it being harder to grind I have to disagree have either of you actually played the npcs on the development page with the entropy starter deck (not nearly the best) I played for 30 mins beating low level opponents and made more money in that time then an hour of pounding ai3 with a fully upped rush in fact the grinding will take less time than than you think, and I'm sure when the map is finished there will be more than one of each palace per element spread across the map or it won't be as much a trek to get to your nearest palace so that won't be a problem either. Personally I think your hating for the sake of hating because you want more cards trust me that is not always the best option I play another ccg that gets 7 or 8 new cards every week and that makes sod all difference I still play the same 6 different decks constantly because they are the most effective more cards is not the answer to increase deck options what you need is a way that inspires the use of different decks not more cards.

[Leodip]

I think I shall chip in here or this spiel about it being harder to grind I have to disagree have either of you actually played the npcs on the development page with the entropy starter deck (not nearly the best) I played for 30 mins beating low level opponents and made more money in that time then an hour of pounding ai3 with a fully upped rush in fact the grinding will take less time than than you think, and I'm sure when the map is finished there will be more than one of each palace per element spread across the map or it won't be as much a trek to get to your nearest palace so that won't be a problem either. Personally I think your hating for the sake of hating because you want more cards trust me that is not always the best option I play another ccg that gets 7 or 8 new cards every week and that makes sod all difference I still play the same 6 different decks constantly because they are the most effective more cards is not the answer to increase deck options what you need is a way that inspires the use of different decks not more cards.

I see that after 30 mins of gameing you lost most of your ",", didn't you? Just Kidding
By the way, yes, I did that too, and I found them crazily profitable, definitely a lot more than what we expected when zanz announced it. That's because there are lots of decks with low health but LV20, making it faster and profitable.

[Blacksmith]

I just want to add my thought into this discussion.

I think this is much much better than adding 10 new cards or something. Since the meta often consist of more less 10 grinding decks and adding 10 new cards would only make maybe 1-4 new viable grinding decks which wouldn't affect meta that much at all( this is true but for the shard meta, but I really doubt such a series will be made again ). Instead of making new cards that wouldn't affect meta that much he gives us the opportunity to create our own opponents and or own meta. I'm pretty sure that the grinding decks before 1,4 and after 1,4 will be a lot different, especially for the midd lv players. + With all the extra functions like 900hp 5*mark 3dex we gonna be able to make so many different decks it's crazy, we gonna be able to make all those decks who has been to weak before. The biggest problem with arena is that people submit the strongest decks, in this map the strongest deck could be any deck.

[rowcla]

I dunno about other people, but i dont really care much for the rewards themselves. Personally, i just dont like playing against opponents who have extra advantages and losing to those reasons alone. I much prefer to play around with decks against people with equal advantages to me. Something which is much easier with the current system.

The rewards themselves dont really mean all that much to me, although its nice to have a bit of extra electrum, i have enough to upgrade whatever i want as is. And more importantly, getting more electrum faster decreases the satisfaction of upgrading cards. its like why the game doesnt just give you all the cards in the first place.

I just want to add my thought into this discussion.

I think this is much much better than adding 10 new cards or something. Since the meta often consist of more less 10 grinding decks and adding 10 new cards would only make maybe 1-4 new viable grinding decks which wouldn't affect meta that much at all( this is true but for the shard meta, but I really doubt such a series will be made again ). Instead of making new cards that wouldn't affect meta that much he gives us the opportunity to create our own opponents and or own meta. I'm pretty sure that the grinding decks before 1,4 and after 1,4 will be a lot different, especially for the midd lv players. + With all the extra functions like 900hp 5*mark 3dex we gonna be able to make so many different decks it's crazy, we gonna be able to make all those decks who has been to weak before. The biggest problem with arena is that people submit the strongest decks, in this map the strongest deck could be any deck.

There are soooo many things wrong with this statement, its hard to know where to begin...

For starters, you refer to "the meta" However there is really more than one meta. with multiple ranges of opponents you have meta decks for each individual area of play. At any rate, this sort of update does not really affect any of that, so...

The biggest thing that elements needs right now is variance. This adds to replayability and gives players a lot more freedom. Even if new decks dont become part of "the meta" it still benefits the game greatly. Adding 10 new cards which are all like voodoo doll, in that they have a lot of potential for deck concepts, could potentially create 100s of new deck ideas. Which the game would benefit from much more than a glorified remake of the arena.

Creating opponents has always been possible, besides the arena, theres even been functions in trainer.

Grinding decks being different depends on where your grinding. This has always been the case in elements, and since the overall concepts of each level does not change, the decks wont really end up being different

I fail to see how stronger opponents mean that you can make more decks, or that they make weaker decks better.

The biggest problem with arena is that people submit the strongest decks, in this map the strongest deck could be any deck.

Basically your saying that the "strongest deck" wont be the strongest deck? Interesting...

[Blacksmith]

I dunno about other people, but i dont really care much for the rewards themselves. Personally, i just dont like playing against opponents who have extra advantages and losing to those reasons alone. I much prefer to play around with decks against people with equal advantages to me. Something which is much easier with the current system.And so do I. But since the ai never gonna be able to play as good as a player that wouldn't work. + giving an ai for example more hp makes it able to beat more decks for example rush decks. If all fg's had 100 hp the best grinder would eb a rush deck this would mean that all the fg's had to have anti rush cards that would really decrease the versatility of decks  and that would make them week to other decks such as Ug stalls and so on. SO having more hp card draw marks really helps to make more decks different decks for ai.

The rewards themselves dont really mean all that much to me, although its nice to have a bit of extra electrum, i have enough to upgrade whatever i want as is. And more importantly, getting more electrum faster decreases the satisfaction of upgrading cards. its like why the game doesnt just give you all the cards in the first place.
I'm sure that Zanz knows this and will find a balance for it.

Spoiler for Hidden:

I just want to add my thought into this discussion.

I think this is much much better than adding 10 new cards or something. Since the meta often consist of more less 10 grinding decks and adding 10 new cards would only make maybe 1-4 new viable grinding decks which wouldn't affect meta that much at all( this is true but for the shard meta, but I really doubt such a series will be made again ). Instead of making new cards that wouldn't affect meta that much he gives us the opportunity to create our own opponents and or own meta. I'm pretty sure that the grinding decks before 1,4 and after 1,4 will be a lot different, especially for the midd lv players. + With all the extra functions like 900hp 5*mark 3dex we gonna be able to make so many different decks it's crazy, we gonna be able to make all those decks who has been to weak before. The biggest problem with arena is that people submit the strongest decks, in this map the strongest deck could be any deck.

There are soooo many things wrong with this statement, its hard to know where to begin...ok

For starters, you refer to "the meta" However there is really more than one meta. with multiple ranges of opponents you have meta decks for each individual area of play. At any rate, this sort of update does not really affect any of that, so...
I don't see how adding a new meta won't affect that besides that you are right.

The biggest thing that elements needs right now is variance.I totally agree This adds to replayability and gives players a lot more freedom. Even if new decks dont become part of "the meta" it still benefits the game greatly. Adding 10 new cards which are all like voodoo doll, in that they have a lot of potential for deck concepts, could potentially create 100s of new deck ideas. Which the game would benefit from much more than a glorified remake of the arena.
I agree with that but the last sentence. Adding new cards is very good but adding a new Area for playing is also very important to do once in a while. For example imagine this game still having T50 and instead of T500 and arena we would have 100 new cards. Even if those cards would make the meta bigger I bet that many players would leave anyway since only T50 would be to boring. It's the combination of adding new areas and new card that makes it more fun and variance

Creating opponents has always been possible, besides the arena, theres even been functions in trainer.
True but even if they are relatives 1,4 will give this creating new decks a whole new meaning.

Grinding decks being different depends on where your grinding.Yes. This has always been the case in elements, and since the overall concepts of each level does not change, the decks wont really end up being different
But that is also true for arena, the ai's and so on. And when having over 1000different decks to play against I'm pretty sure that you will end up having loads of viable different decks.

I fail to see how stronger opponents mean that you can make more decks, or that they make weaker decks better.
Nah thats not really how I meant. There are many combos in elements some are stronger some are weeker. Having more hp etc etc makes even the weak combos viable and in that way it's gives more versatility to the deck building.

The biggest problem with arena is that people submit the strongest decks, in this map the strongest deck could be any deck.

Basically your saying that the "strongest deck" wont be the strongest deck? Interesting...
Correct. With 900 hp an antlion deck might beat a miracle/sod deck with 100hp. In other words with other things that make the deck stronger any deck could be the best.

At last I just want to say that we want the same thing, variation. But I guess we have different opinions on how to reach that goal. I guess that only time could tell who was right about patch 1,4, maybe we will bot h be right.

[rowcla]

I dunno about other people, but i dont really care much for the rewards themselves. Personally, i just dont like playing against opponents who have extra advantages and losing to those reasons alone. I much prefer to play around with decks against people with equal advantages to me. Something which is much easier with the current system.And so do I. But since the ai never gonna be able to play as good as a player that wouldn't work. + giving an ai for example more hp makes it able to beat more decks for example rush decks. If all fg's had 100 hp the best grinder would eb a rush deck this would mean that all the fg's had to have anti rush cards that would really decrease the versatility of decks  and that would make them week to other decks such as Ug stalls and so on. SO having more hp card draw marks really helps to make more decks different decks for ai.

The ai isnt that bad, if they're playing an excellent list, provided its not too complicated a deck to play, its still going to be challenging to play against. Anyway, PvP is always an option.

For starters, you refer to "the meta" However there is really more than one meta. with multiple ranges of opponents you have meta decks for each individual area of play. At any rate, this sort of update does not really affect any of that, so...
I don't see how adding a new meta won't affect that besides that you are right.

My point is that it doesnt add a new meta. Yes there are new opponents, however the basic standards remain the same. A really high level opponent is effectively the same as platinum, and a bit lower than that is like gold, and so on. Overall it doesnt really create a new meta.

The biggest thing that elements needs right now is variance.I totally agree This adds to replayability and gives players a lot more freedom. Even if new decks dont become part of "the meta" it still benefits the game greatly. Adding 10 new cards which are all like voodoo doll, in that they have a lot of potential for deck concepts, could potentially create 100s of new deck ideas. Which the game would benefit from much more than a glorified remake of the arena.
I agree with that but the last sentence. Adding new cards is very good but adding a new Area for playing is also very important to do once in a while. For example imagine this game still having T50 and instead of T500 and arena we would have 100 new cards. Even if those cards would make the meta bigger I bet that many players would leave anyway since only T50 would be to boring. It's the combination of adding new areas and new card that makes it more fun and variance

Please dont misunderstand, I am not saying that the arena is a bad thing. On the contrary, i believe that Arena was an excellent move that provided a lot for elements. My point in saying that its merely a "glorified arena" is that its effectively the same thing, except clunkier and, well, glorified. As it is, i dont believe there are really any problems with the arena, and that adding in new levels to it would not really support the game nearly as much as adding new cards. At least at this point.

Creating opponents has always been possible, besides the arena, theres even been functions in trainer.
True but even if they are relatives 1,4 will give this creating new decks a whole new meaning.

Its effectively the same thing as Arena however. Certainly, its still a glorified version of the arena. But nonetheless.

Grinding decks being different depends on where your grinding.Yes. This has always been the case in elements, and since the overall concepts of each level does not change, the decks wont really end up being different
But that is also true for arena, the ai's and so on. And when having over 1000different decks to play against I'm pretty sure that you will end up having loads of viable different decks.

At the highest levels of play, do you really think that an aggro deck is viable? Anyway, what i was saying was merely to point out that the metas for each level of play doesnt change.

I fail to see how stronger opponents mean that you can make more decks, or that they make weaker decks better.
Nah thats not really how I meant. There are many combos in elements some are stronger some are weeker. Having more hp etc etc makes even the weak combos viable and in that way it's gives more versatility to the deck building.

Since only opponents get these benefits, i cant really say this is much of a benefit overall. Even if it can be kinda interesting to see oppponents like that. At any rate, again, this has always been the case in the Arena.

There also isnt really much that applies to. Particularly since a lot of combo decks cant be used by the ai.

The biggest problem with arena is that people submit the strongest decks, in this map the strongest deck could be any deck.

Basically your saying that the "strongest deck" wont be the strongest deck? Interesting...
Correct. With 900 hp an antlion deck might beat a miracle/sod deck with 100hp. In other words with other things that make the deck stronger any deck could be the best.

So your saying that when that deck is stronger than any other deck, and is the best. It is not the "strongest deck" despite it being the strongest deck.

At last I just want to say that we want the same thing, variation. But I guess we have different opinions on how to reach that goal. I guess that only time could tell who was right about patch 1,4, maybe we will bot h be right.

True, I would like to think that my opinions come from long term studying of CCG mechanics and contributors to the growth of the system. However im certainly not one to think of myself as being any authority on the matter, so I cant really say that I'm right, and certainly not that your wrong.

[kaempfer13]

There is a difference between Arena and Bestiary decks. I am not even referring to the decreased limitations of bestiary decks (you can use a smaller cardbase and also all the cards you want (you dont need to actually have them), intentionally reduce starting hp/or increase them to a high amount), but the fact that bestiary decks are judged by thumbs even if they lose and it is no longer the aim to make an unbeatable deck, but rather a deck that is fun to play against. This can be achieved by sticking to a theme given by name and description, use unconventional or fun-strategies (and the artificial buffs for bestiarydecks make these decks viable) or by sticking to certain guidelines

Spoiler for Hidden:

(for example the deck should be welldesigned, meaning that the quantabalance and balance between combo cards is wellexecuted and in ideal case the deck has a little something to deal with most kinds of strategies so that it can always put up a nice fight (which it does not necessarily have to win))

Unlike Arenadecks, where the win rate is the only thing that matters, bestiarydecks are intended to lose every now and then, unless they have got a really high lvl in which case it is rendered impossible to beat the deck and the one who does shall get huge rewards.
@rowcla you keep stating that rush decks are not going to be viable farm decks.
2 things: 1. rush decks are quite commonly used to beat Gold decks, so I guess they do work against opponents with increased hp.
2. It is possible to submit decks which have benefits such as double draw and additional mark power, but pay for that with decreased hp. Those are probably easy to rush.

[treebeard xiii]

Rowcla the big difference is the bonuses aren't only going to be for the ai from my understanding by building reputation within a specific palace from what zanz said you can build a deck with special marks and with this I'm assuming multiple marks, double draw and boosted hp. ofc what zanz meant needs clarification but as it stands that is what I'm assuming is meant and suddenly you so called 'useless' rush decks are suddenly back on the grind radar. Yes I would also like a couple of new cards as well but first and foremost I want the grind to be as interesting as possible and to me 1.4 seems to be bringing that bt as it is in the early stages neither of us can be sure of that.

[Chapuz]

zanz,
Do you suggest the community submit decks with Shards for the AIs?
If yes, any level restriction? (i.e decks with shards only for levels 60+)

[Zergva]

I don't know how much new card will be in the 1.4 version, but I've got an idea:

Double the amount of cards (if it's actually possible or just ignore it, the second part is the important) and instead of taking them in the Bazaar, spread them through the AI-s. Some of them can be taken from the weaker AI-s and there will be some, what can be achieved REALLY hard (but as I see). I don't suggest that lvl80+ AI-s should get OP cards, while weak AI-s bad cards, I just saying something similar as nymphs (just not ultra-rare, just medium-rare). So if you have the "Cucumbershot" card from AI lvl1414 what gives you 1 Hp/turn that doesn't worth much, but gives you the feeling that you've got this card in a heavy battle.

I don't know if it have been said clearly.