Elements 1.29

[bucky1andonly]

drain life is still ok, its just used for CC now and you still gain life, whether you target the player or a creature
ice bolt though needs a little something something, how about a chance to freeze the shield if the player is targeted
AI using firestall wont be any different, AI uses fire bolts early, usually long before 50 quanta

and now, ima go play with some sors and eggs

[vagman13]

I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?

[TheManuz]

I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?

Man, don't be rude...
explosion was definitely overpowered (underpriced is a better word), but you can still splash it in every deck simply using a fire mark.
Fire decks needs to be rebalanced, sure, but they far from "ruined".
Other than that, give it some time. It's a beta, it's under testing, these modifications will not be permanent if they unbalances the game.

[bucky1andonly]

and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?

no one likes playing against a firestall or immo rush, and explosion, can you say, divine glory nerf
i certainly dont like it when DG plays 1 fire tower and destroys the much needed shield or weapon or other perm i just played on my turn, now he needs 2 towers or wait 2 turns

[The_Mormegil]

I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?

Well, the best FG grinders don't really use many SoGs and surely aren't dependant on it. Also, it's quite possible that SoSacrifice will revolutionize FG grinding altogether. Also, SoG won't now be splashed into upped PvP decks and Arena decks to grant massive healing to most stalls and even to some rushes.
Fire nerf ruins SOME pvp decks (arguably the BEST ones) and forces creativity, changing the metagame for once (and I personally believe for the better).
Deflagration nerf is something the game needed, and it will possibly be paired with the introduction of more PC cards in the future to spread the love to other elements. It's no longer splashable in nova war decks and that is something I personally love: novagrabby won't be as reliable if you need 3 novas to bust through a single Wings or Dimshield. Also increases the use of Momentum.

I love the changes. They will shake up the game a bit, way more than Shards will.

[ralouf]

I agree with morm. Fire is now going to be more as powerfull as other instead of having the best stall deck AND the fastest rush deck.. that was really needed IMO.

[kirchj33]

Great patch zanz.  Whether or not some of these changes are effective or not, it means the world to me that you, as a developer, are putting real effort into balancing the meta.

Well, the best FG grinders don't really use many SoGs and surely aren't dependant on it.

First, let me say that on this list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349339#msg349339) of the top 10 FG grinders, 7 use SoG, I would say 4 of those 7 are dependent upon them, the exception being the 3 RoL/Hope variants, which probably just function differently without it.  I agree the new patch provides several new deck ideas and options we are yet to see.

Now, let me shift my focus entirely to PvP, as this is certainly where the meta and balancing matters most.  I want to bring up some "bigger picture" meta points that others have not yet brought into focus.

The deflag nerf is needed.  However, this is also an indirect nerf to pvp rainbows, especially unupped.  What this means is that discord becomes stronger as people are more reliant upon monos and duos.  EQ also receives a buff, but I find that generally EQ is fairly balanced and can be worked around through quanta splits and intelligent playing.  All perms receive a soft buff via the rainbow nerf.  I believe among the most significant of these is Dim Shield.  One nice effect however, would be an indirect indirect buff to gravity and momentum.  In conclusion, I believe discord needs a nerf as a result of this patch.

Quanta cap at 50:  Goodbye most popular methods to stalling.  Except, I don't feel this actually does much to nerf firestall.  It will still be annoying as hell in arena, and it will still be annoying as hell in PvP.  It will simply be played as a troll deck now, with the possibility of killing through fahr.  It will still be strong.  Other bolt based decks will not.  Diss shield is pretty much unaffected.  Stone skin will not be "strong".  Stoneskin was pretty poor to start with, as you had to commit huge amounts of quanta to using it before.  It was made viable by sanc/miracle or poison.

Which leads me to my final point.  How the meta will shift as a result to the quanta cap.  The major mechanic seen in "stalls" will now undoubtedly be poison (if you want to call poison a stall).  The nice thing about having a few effective stalls in the meta is that they are nice curveballs that prevent everyone from packing a ton of CC and shields.  These are already effective pvp strategies before removing powerful stalls.  I suppose purify receives an indirect buff as well.

These are not complaints, just points I wanted to raise.  I find the ideas to be awesome all-in-all!

One question for zanz:  Can we expect updates to take effect mid-war?  It doesn't seem like they would be ready by then, considering more shards still need to be developed and tested, but it is a possibility all teams who will build their vaults next week need to consider. 

[Xenocidius]

First, let me say that on this list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349339#msg349339) of the top 10 FG grinders, 7 use SoG, I would say 4 of those 7 are dependent upon them, the exception being the 3 RoL/Hope variants, which probably just function differently without it.

Fast Draw Ghostal doesn't need SoGs, they only really help with EMs.

[dragonsdemesne]

Looking at the list of changes, in general I think that most of them are a good thing.

1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if    mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
This is a good thing.  It makes the card strictly worse than sanctuary in nonlife decks, and makes it harder to heal in decks that have no business being as good at healing as they were with 5hp/turn at 3 cost.

2. Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if    mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
This is good as well.  It gives less hp than Heal to nonlight, and costs more.  It might be overcosted at 5, but we'll see.

3. Shard of Patience non    creatures gain +1/+0
Prevents the ball lightning/fractal thing and minimizes the benefit for nonwater, while still giving nonwater something.  I like the change.

4. Shard of sacrifice HP cost increased to 40/32 if upped
That's a hefty hp cost to play, and that might be enough to balance the amazing power of the card.  It's definitely still playable even with that hp cost. 

5. Shard of readiness lets    creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)
Definitely a good idea.  The adrenaline thing was basically making an 'other' version of adrenaline that just happened to also make any skill cost zero.  This gets the card back to the main focus, making the ability cost 0, while still giving a usable extra ability to Time.  One of my favourite targets for this card are nymphs, and Golden Nymph definitely benefits from this one.

5. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
Definitely a good thing; explosion at 2/1 was one of the culprits behind fire's problems. 
 
6. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
That puts Ash in killing range of a few more cards; that's a good thing.  I don't think it wil make a huge difference, and it certainly won't turn anybody off from playing phoenixes.

7. Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1
Might as well; that will help make it more usable.  It's a change I wasn't at all expecting, but I think one for the better.

8. Immolation    gain reduced to 6(8upped)
I'd suggested a few changes to this card, and while this wasn't one of them, I think it's a step in the right direction.  The suggestions I'd made in another thread were either to require a fire creature as the sacrifice, which would slow it down as there are no 0 cost fire creatures, or to increase the base cost from 0 to 1 and the gain from 7 to 8(9 to 10) which would have kept the gain amonut the same while requiring either towers, novas, or some other way of getting that first quanta.

9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element
My first instinct was to say 'this sucks donkey balls', but after thinking about it, maybe it's not so bad.  It does mean a few other things need to be worked out before this goes live.  Stone Skin might need to be improved, unless hurting 500hp EM decks was part of the goal.  The false god Decay no longer even has the win condition that it once had with siphon life, as that would cap at 12hp; he'll need something like Obsidian Dragon even more than he did before. (he was the weakest FG -before- this change; now he will be even more of a joke)  Jezebel might need a buff, too, though she isn't as reliant on Siphon Life as a finisher like Decay is.  Fire bolt/Ice Bolt/Drain Life all take a hit, but mostly for/vs the AI; in pvp, 50 quanta isn't achieved nearly as often as, say, against false gods, because pvp games are generally quite short in comparison.  Dissipation Shield/Field also takes a hit, since you won't be able to get those massive quanta pools anymore, but it's probably still usable.

[The_Mormegil]

First, let me say that on this list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349339#msg349339) of the top 10 FG grinders, 7 use SoG, I would say 4 of those 7 are dependent upon them, the exception being the 3 RoL/Hope variants, which probably just function differently without it.  I agree the new patch provides several new deck ideas and options we are yet to see.

Well, I can see some winrates being reduced by this (especially vs Poison), but Voodoo, MonoAether, RoL Hope, Ghostal and Liquid Antimatter are definitely going to still be strong after the SoG nerf. Also, we'll probably see a SoSac poisondial stall soon on the top of that list. :/

Now, let me shift my focus entirely to PvP, as this is certainly where the meta and balancing matters most.  I want to bring up some "bigger picture" meta points that others have not yet brought into focus. *agreed*

The deflag nerf is needed.  However, this is also an indirect nerf to pvp rainbows, especially unupped.  What this means is that discord becomes stronger as people are more reliant upon monos and duos.  EQ also receives a buff, but I find that generally EQ is fairly balanced and can be worked around through quanta splits and intelligent playing.  All perms receive a soft buff via the rainbow nerf.  I believe among the most significant of these is Dim Shield.  One nice effect however, would be an indirect indirect buff to gravity and momentum.  In conclusion, I believe discord needs a nerf as a result of this patch.

I don't think so. Rainbow decks will be less strong, but you can expect to see them in War still thanks to the 3 upgrades (if you can run a deflag or two, you can run a nerfed Explosion or two). Unupped PvP (BL, tournaments) will be affected, though without War restriction you can play some Quantum Pillars to round up the quanta balance, and a 3-cost Deflagration is going to be playable at the very least. Upped rainbows won't even notice this (they will at worse convert their Lava Golem into another strong creature from another element, no problem here).
EQ recieves a very slight buff also through the nerf to Immolation, but again, EQ is counterable through smart playing and pillar/pend split. Discord? Discord has a lot of soft counters. It's a pain, true, but you can get around it if you want to, although it does slow down every opponent.
About the permanent buff, I expect Zanzarino to work on adding some other PC cards in the next patch (this has enough new cards already thanks to shards). We have a lot of possible ideas here in the CIA boards (off the top of my head I remember Touch of Midas, Vines, Windswept, Implosion, Avalanche). I think he will add new PC options also BECAUSE of the shards (PC is going to be more important with all those new nice permanents, especially repeatable PC and possibly some new forms of "mass PC", like the aforementioned Implosion and Avalanche). So I rest my faith in 1.30 for that. For now, you just need to think good Fire duos and good Darkness duos (Steal becomes much more intresting...). Also, for strong shields, as you noted there's momentum (which is, as of now, kind of underused).

Quanta cap at 50:  Goodbye most popular methods to stalling.  Except, I don't feel this actually does much to nerf firestall.  It will still be annoying as hell in arena, and it will still be annoying as hell in PvP.  It will simply be played as a troll deck now, with the possibility of killing through fahr.  It will still be strong.  Other bolt based decks will not.  Diss shield is pretty much unaffected.  Stone skin will not be "strong".  Stoneskin was pretty poor to start with, as you had to commit huge amounts of quanta to using it before.  It was made viable by sanc/miracle or poison.

It doesn't nerf firestall. Like, at all. A normal Firestall will still be very strong against a majority of decks. However, if you notice, it does introduce a whole new category of counters to Firestall: decks with massive healing, some PC, and hp-increasing cards. Like Shard of Divinity. You can no longer commit yourself to only Bolts and Fahrenheit for offense, because if you do, then your damage cap is not so high, and even moderate constant healing will outstall you, eventually. I can see a lot more Stall Faster-like decks (phoenixes coupled with high quanta flow, Fahrenheit and Bolts is a powerful all-around deck) but Stall Faster is not as strong as Firestall, in general, and is more prone to abuses. Heck, The Immortal is going to be considered a hard-counter to firestall...
I agree a rework of Stone Skin is needed. See my previous posts.

Which leads me to my final point.  How the meta will shift as a result to the quanta cap.  The major mechanic seen in "stalls" will now undoubtedly be poison (if you want to call poison a stall).  The nice thing about having a few effective stalls in the meta is that they are nice curveballs that prevent everyone from packing a ton of CC and shields.  These are already effective pvp strategies before removing powerful stalls.  I suppose purify receives an indirect buff as well.

I don't quite understand what you consider a stall, then, if you exclude "decks with a lot of shields and CC"...

[nilsieboy]

*leaves*

You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.

ahh, was hoping for another grav card... x]

[Atico]

If for someone nerfing StoneSkin is a problem (for me it is still powerful card) we can easily add 50% more HP when Mark is Earth. Then SS still will be with 75HP.
But I don't think that 50HP is too low. This card cost only 1 and can give half HP status. Heal cost 2 and give max 20. So SS is still powerful.