Elements 1.17

[Essence]

The AI improvements are a good thing, straight up.  Beating FGs by exploiting their bad decisions was never a feature, it was a bug.  AI5 exists for those people who have trouble FG farming; use it.  I'm actually totally happy to see the AI kicking my butt, it puts the False Gods where they're supposed to be: epic challenges for players with epic decks and epic skills.

[cyberrico]

You do realize that all the AI is governed by the same programming, right? There is no seperate AI for the FGs, an AI for the Halfbloods, etc. But even still, The computer could get nothing but costing cards in their first hand, then there is no real smart move that can be made.

But when you compare this game to MTG, of course there is more skill involved in that game. There are plenty more cards than there are here, this game did just get started not that long ago.  So there may be more cards and game mechanics there, but you still need plenty of skill to be able to play this game right. Not anyone can just come in and play any card, any time, and still win. There is a lot of strategy here, when to play the right cards, whether to save up quanta to play a better card next turn or play a less powerful card this turn, etc. But also, such large games like MTG can take a while to finish one duel. Plenty of duels here only take a few minutes max.

Of course I realize that.  I am focused on the FGs because I am at the end game with unlimited resources and despite the AI changes, levels 1-5 will still be easy to beat for new players who don't have 6 of every card in the deck upgraded like I do.

I also realize that there is skill involved in this game.  Roulette is an unfair comparison but it is very much about drawing fast enough and hoping that they don't draw too well even if you have an excellent deck and endgame knowledge of the strategy involved to beat each FG with your deck at that time.

[Essence]

Exactly.  You have the resources, the knowledge, and the skill -- and you still have to be not-unlucky to win.  That's the best possible scenario for a player-versus-AI endgame.  What's the problem?

[cyberrico]

Exactly.  You have the resources, the knowledge, and the skill -- and you still have to be not-unlucky to win.  That's the best possible scenario for a player-versus-AI endgame.  What's the problem?

You know what, if you don't want to be open minded to what other people have to say and open to their opinions even if you don't agree, don't ask me questions.  It's a waste of my time to answer them.

[Essence]

Don't ascribe malice where none exists.  I'm an amateur game designer, and I'm honestly curious as to what you think the final game-state in PVE play should be.

You don't want to win every time or even predictably, because that's not a game, it's a grind.  A game needs to be challenging to be fun.
 
You don't want to lose every time or even predictably, because that's not a game, it's just a waste of time.  A game needs to be winnable to be fun.

SO -- you have a scenario where you've maximized your resources, and you win some and you lose some, mostly unpredictably (I understand that some FGs are predictable for some decks, but that's not really a problem as your chances of facing any particular FG are fairly slim).  Is that not exactly where you want to be in terms of actually having a fun game?

[bobcamel]

HEADDESK

The point of Luciferin is not using it in a Light deck. With its cost being 1 generic quantum, you can make yourself able to play Light cards WITHOUT TAKING LIGHT PILLARS OR MARK. And that's awesome.

[Kamietsu]

HEADDESK

The point of Luciferin is not using it in a Light deck. With its cost being 1 generic quantum, you can make yourself able to play Light cards WITHOUT TAKING LIGHT PILLARS OR MARK. And that's awesome.

Exactly. I was using it in my rainbow deck when i generated skellies so i could improve my light production for a faster miracle, and to have plenty of light quanta for my rustler to make into life quanta.

[PuppyChow]

As opposed to your suggested solutions of actually changing the game, why not simply make there only be 6 random gods in circulation in every week, as I said here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1546.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1546.0.html)

[cyberrico]

Don't ascribe malice where none exists.  I'm an amateur game designer, and I'm honestly curious as to what you think the final game-state in PVE play should be.

You don't want to win every time or even predictably, because that's not a game, it's a grind.  A game needs to be challenging to be fun.
 
You don't want to lose every time or even predictably, because that's not a game, it's just a waste of time.  A game needs to be winnable to be fun.

SO -- you have a scenario where you've maximized your resources, and you win some and you lose some, mostly unpredictably (I understand that some FGs are predictable for some decks, but that's not really a problem as your chances of facing any particular FG are fairly slim).  Is that not exactly where you want to be in terms of actually having a fun game?

I just don't get what you don't understand. 

The difficulty level is fine.  I just want my wins and losses to be less about the luck of the draw and more about how smart I am and my knowledge of the game. 

The game was made "challenging" (in the mind of the developers) by giving the FGs huge advantages over us (like 200 life, draw two cards per turn, etc).  They chose to do this more so than making it about how smart the AI is.  That's fine, I'm not criticizing, but now they are getting into finer points of the AI, the game is going to have to be looked at from a balance standpoint.  A smarter AI will need fewer advantages (again such as 200 life, drawing two cards, etc) to beat us. 

I don't care where they put that balance.  I don't care what my or anyone else's win% is.  If I only win 25% of my games, fine.  I simply want my wins and losses to be more about skill and less about luck.  I think that it is awesome that the AI is getting smarter.  I want to continue to see the game improve in that manner. 

As I said before, I can think of dozens of ways to improve the AI.  If every single one of those ideas were implemented (and I think they eventually will be) then it would be almost completely impossible to beat the FGs with the advantages that the FGs currently have.  Since the recent patches, the AI is getting smarter and it is becoming more about waiting for a good draw.  If the AI were as smart as I am then it would be a heck of a lot less about luck and more about skill.  Yes, there would still be luck involved but a LOT less.

Do you understand that?  I don't mind if you disagree.  I just want to make sure that I am expressing myself clearly.

I have had this discussion in several other threads and I have to say that most of the responses are "the game isn't supposed to be easy".  That tells me that either people are ignorant and arrogant or I am completely failing to express my opinion and vision of the future of this game. 

I know that I am right about the future of this game.  It will completely be about chucking our hand 9 times out of 10 as the AI gets smarter because we need to wait for a huge draw to even have the chance at winning.  I'm not saying where the win% should be, I'm just saying that if I lose 9 out of 10, I want it to be because I didn't focus enough or that my strategy and/or deck needs to be reconsidered and not because I am waiting for a decent draw.

[cyberrico]

As opposed to your suggested solutions of actually changing the game, why not simply make there only be 6 random gods in circulation in every week, as I said here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1546.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1546.0.html)

That's not a terrible idea.  But there are a few issues with that:

1) If I know that I will be fighting Seism all week, I will build a deck that will destroy him with ease.  There is a counter to every deck.  The FGs would have to really be beefed up.  That's fine with me, it would be a lot of work to develop though.

2) It would get boring fighting the same god all day every day especially if it is an easier one. 

But your idea would add a new and interesting dimension to the game.

[jmizzle7]

I dunno... I think 200 health, 2x draw and 3x mark is a big hurdle to overcome, but they will always be beatable. There will always be flaws in the AI that you can exploit. Additionally, as the card pool gets bigger and the number of false gods increases, the number of decks that can beat them will actually increase with various success rates and favorable matchups. It's all up to one's own deck building skills and preference with regard to which favorable matchups (s)he wants.

[Essence]

I understand what you mean, cyberrico, and you're absolutely right -- IF the game ever gets to the point where FGs are unplayable because of a combination of good AI and heavy advantages, it'll suck and those advantages will need to be reduced, absolutely.

I think everyone's managed to get the idea that you're saying that point has already come, which isn't the case.


And you misread PuppyChow: he's saying cycle SIX gods per week, to keep variety coming.  Just one god per week would be entering into the "predictable' zone, and thus lame.