[Official] Horned Frog | Giant Frog

[willng3]

I quite frankly don't care what other elements have to work with in comparison to either of the Frogs.  Have you seen a single deck with either of these that you would consider OP?  I sure haven't.  You want to fix something, then start with the other cards if they even deserve it; the Frogs clearly aren't the problem here.

[choongmyoung]

Crawler is UP.
Frogs are not OP nor UP.

[Absol]

Spoiler for Discussion chatlog, or whatever they call it now:

[20:49] <+Absol> RR
[20:51] <+RR> Wat?
[20:51] <+Absol> Many people say that Blue|Abyss Crawler is UP. What do you feel regarding Gravy Merc buff in relation to Crawler?
[20:53] <@Jenkar> Oh, that's a question to seagull.
[20:53] <+Absol> yes
[20:53]  * Jenkar gobbles RR
[20:53] <+Absol> if you want to answer, just do it
[20:54] <@Jenkar> Just wanted to point out that imo abyss isn't up. Just blue is.
[20:55] <@Jenkar> the only half decent thing i've seen with blues is that weird adrenarush thingie RR built in budokan.
[20:55] <+Absol> why is Abyss not UP (compared to Basalt and Phase Recluse)?
[20:56] <+Absol> and how should Blue be buffed? Extra attack or cost decrease?
[20:56] <+Absol> or skill?
[20:56] <+RR> Abyss is quite fine, IMHO. 6 HP is a horribly good bulk.
[20:56] <@Jenkar> I'll leave the rest to capt'n RR.
[20:57] <+Absol> well then RR
[20:57] <+RR> However, the new mercenary buff leaves blue crawler weeping.
[20:57] <+RR> Because there isn't a single card comparable to blue crawler that is less powerful in any way.
[20:57] <+RR> Blue Crawler is now the bottom of the food chain. Absolute.
[20:57] <+Absol> so, blue is indeed UP
[20:58] <+Absol> how should it be buffed?
[20:58] <+RR> By nerfing frog, merc, cockatrice.
[20:58] <+RR> :V
[20:59] <+Absol> how about the other attacker? Spider (flesh and phase) and what else?
[20:59] <+RR> Flesh Spider is pretty similar. It just has web, but that's kinda meh.
[20:59] <+Absol> why can't Blue be buffed by buffing it instead of by nerfing comparable attackers?
[21:00] <+RR> Phase Recluse can live with 1 more attack and 1 more defense, and web is kinda meh.
[21:00] <+Absol> is there an elemental bonus of some sort which justifies its UPness?
[21:00] <+RR> Frog and Cock anyway set the standards higher.
[21:01] <+RR> CIA theory sucks :v
[21:01] <+Absol> but most cards are balanced according to that theory
[21:01] <+RR> I don't believe in elemental bonuses and card cost theory.
[21:02] <+Absol> if Blue cost were reduced to 2, would it feel like a "waterclone frog"?
[21:02] == RR [~IRIS@elementscommunity.org] has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[21:02] == RR [~IRIS@elementscommunity.org] has joined #elementsthegame
[21:02] == mode/#elementsthegame [+v RR] by ChanServ
[21:03] <+Absol> RR, i thought you ragequit
[21:03] <+Absol> if Blue cost were reduced to 2, would it feel like a "waterclone frog"?
[21:03] <+RR> Eugh.
[21:03] <+RR> Pretty cool, but it would start to feel a bit OP.
[21:04] <+Absol> how so? Isn't frog balanced?
[21:04] <+RR> I have some issues with frog.
[21:05] <+RR> Maybe it's the Cocka/Adren support, but Frog is the best rusher.
[21:05] <+Absol> is it about life having almost same range attacker?
[21:05] <+Absol> (frog/cock)
[21:05] <+RR> Cheap and pretty offensive.
[21:06] <+Absol> offensive as in "packs a punch" or "making you angry"?
[21:06] <+RR> Cockatrice has been regarded as UP just because of Frog's existane.
[21:06] <+RR> *existance.
[21:06] <+RR> Offensive as quite a nice and fast punch for their cost.
[21:06] <+Absol> extra 1 attack worths it
[21:06] <+Absol> but it does feel redundant
[21:07] <+Absol> the problem is with frog in balancing Blue?
[21:07] <+RR> IMHO, yes.
[21:07] <+RR> It's also the problem in balancing merc, and cockatrice.
[21:07] <+RR> And the spiders.
[21:07] <+Absol> frog is the standard benchmark
[21:07] <+RR> Exactly.
[21:07] <+RR> But frog is the OP one.
[21:07] <+RR> Compared to the rest.
[21:08] <+Absol> how so?
[21:08] <+Absol> its cheaper cost?
[21:08] <+RR> 2 :lf for 3|3
[21:08] <+Absol> if Frog were to be nerfed, will Blue be balanced?
[21:08] <+RR> Maybe.
[21:08] <+Absol> how will you nerf Frog in relation to Blue's balance?
[21:08] <+RR> When do I get the job?
[21:08] <+Absol> theoretically
[21:09] <+RR> Make frog 3 :lf, Make cocka 4 :lf
[21:09] <+Absol> isn't that making them UP?
[21:09] <+RR> It puts cocka in line with Abom, too.
[21:09] <+Absol> oh
[21:09] <+RR> It's not making them UP, it's changing the reference.
[21:09] <+Absol> then how will the rest do compared to Frog after that nerf?
[21:10] <+RR> Better.
[21:10] <+Absol> better in the balancing gap or better as in global buffed?
[21:10] <+RR> Better as gap.
[21:10] <+Absol> which means, the rest won't have to be buffed individually?
[21:11] <+RR> Exactly.
[21:11] <+Absol> how about the Merc buff in regards to Frog potential nerf?
[21:12] <+RR> That is just getting to frog as reference again.
[21:12] <+Absol> which means a nerf post-buff?
[21:12] <+RR> Yes.
[21:12] <+RR> Or at least, undo the buff.
[21:13] <+Absol> the rest of the attackers are already balanced with Frog cost increased?
[21:13] <+RR> Well...
[21:14] <+Absol> well?
[21:15] <+RR> Abomination - Flesh Spider - Mummy - Merc - Sapph Charger (?) - Antlion - Hematite Golem - Frog - Cock - Crawler - (Firefly ?) - Scarab - Minor Vampire - Phase Spider - Psion.
[21:15] <+RR> I'm doubtful on whether or not Sapph Charger and Firefly fit in this list.
[21:16] <+Absol> Charger might fit, but firefly might not. Use Wyrm instead.
[21:16] <+RR> Wyrm doesn't seem to fit.
[21:16] <+Absol> on the second thought, Firefly counts. Why does Scarab count?
[21:16] <+RR> Scarab as standalone is 2 :t 2|x
[21:17] <+RR> Which, still as standalone, can be considered close to 2|2 / 2|3.
[21:17] <+Absol> hmm
[21:17] <+Absol> Lycan?
[21:17] <+RR> All these creatures have a 1:1 attack and defense to cost ratio, or close to it.
[21:17] <+RR> I feel like Lycan is too different to fit.
[21:18] <+RR> It would be 4 cost dual for 6|6
[21:18] <+Absol> oh
[21:18] <+Absol> what's the real criteria with Frog and the rest?
[21:18] <+Absol> how big of an attack?
[21:19] <+RR> It's all 2|4 hitters.
[21:19] <+RR> Whose damage does not depend on an ability.
[21:19] <+RR> Vampire can also fit or not.
[21:19] <+Absol> Abom is 5
[21:19] <+RR> Maybe Gargoyle would be more fitting.
[21:19] <+Absol> as is Mummy
[21:20] <+Absol> Gargoyle would fit too
[21:20] <+RR> As would be Gargoyle.
[21:22] <+Absol> are they all still balanced if Frog and Cock are nerfed?
[21:22] <+RR> Pegasus, Wyrm, Lycan, Forest Scorpion are in another group.
[21:22] <+RR> Well, yes.
[21:23] <+RR> And also are the Spirits and Firemaster.
[21:23] <+Absol> and Graboid
[21:23] <+RR> And Graboid too.
[21:23] <+RR> Yes.
[21:24] <+RR> Spark, Photon, Gemrider, Ash itter, Dragonfly, Warden, Skeleton, Chrys and Virus belong also to a different group.
[21:25] <+RR> Parasite needs to be cheered up a bit, tho.
[21:25] <+RR> Toadfish fits in the first list, tho.
[21:25] <+Absol> okay, let's compare the creatures in the first batch
[21:27] <+Absol> actually, no.
[21:27] <+RR> They all are pretty similar.
[21:27] <+Absol> RR is Frog balanced if upped?
[21:27] <+RR> Frog upped is a curse :v
[21:27] <+Absol> still unbalanced?
[21:28] <+Absol> compare Grav Merc and Minor Phoenix
[21:28] <+RR> Still the best rush creature existing.
[21:28] <+Absol> so the cost increase applies to both upped and unupped
[21:28] <+RR> Minor Phoenix is also bad.
[21:29] <+Absol> Minor phoenix isn't balanced?
[21:29] <+RR> Minor Phoenix is quite meh.
[21:29] <+RR> But touching it may make it more meh.
[21:29] <+Absol> meh, as in weak?
[21:30] <+Absol> How about new Guard and Antlion, which is comparable to it?
[21:30] <+Absol> UP can lead to UU

Are you kidding me? Life is one of the most UP elements atm anyway. Besides:
Creatures aren't meant to be balanced. Elements are supposed to be.
Wishing for a nerf for horned frog because Abyss crawler costs 3  is like saying deflag should be removed from this game because Life doesn't have it either.
It really surprises me that the very simple - yet clever - concept of each element having its own weaknesses & strenghts has to be explained.

And you think i'm the one being unthoughtful. Did you ever read this before replying?

[Marsu]

And you think i'm the one being unthoughtful. Did you ever read this before replying?

So what you're trying to say is that the statement in your post is not your opinion? 

[...] we came to a conclusion that Frog [...] [is] OP in itself.  [...]

Mh... nope. So yes, I actually read it.

[TheAccuso]

Are you kidding me? Life is one of the most UP elements atm anyway. Besides:
Creatures aren't meant to be balanced. Elements are supposed to be.

Than making a crappy element with all o|1 creatures and 0 damage reducing shields but including a 100|100 creature with a 4 cost will be ok?

[Absol]

And you think i'm the one being unthoughtful. Did you ever read this before replying?

So what you're trying to say is that the statement in your post is not your opinion? 

Yes, i'm saying that it's not my opinion, but i'm opening the thread for discussion. Not flaming.

[...] we came to a conclusion that Frog [...] [is] OP in itself.  [...]

Mh... nope. So yes, I actually read it.

Stop reading out of context.
/offtopic

[Marsu]

Stop reading out of context.
/offtopic

Now you're just making a fool out of yourself.
Here's the full quote:

After a discussion with RR regarding Crawler being UP in regards to the new Merc buff, we came to a conclusion that Frog is used as the baseline for balancing similar creatures, yet it's OP in itself.

"We came to the conclusion that frog is OP in itself" - Nothing to discuss here. If you wanted to say something different, then just go ahead and admit it was written in a way that had to be misunderstood. But accusing me of not having read your post is ridicoulus.

[Marsu]

Doublepost, but otherwise it gets too messy.

Than making a crappy element with all o|1 creatures and 0 damage reducing shields but including a 100|100 creature with a 4 cost will be ok?

Elements have to be balanced. But of course cards have to be balanced too. That doesn't mean all cards have to be the same. There is no existing top deck that includes Horned Frog - case closed. Fractal Frog is the thing that comes closest, but it's not more than an HB farmer.
Oh, and speaking of fractal: If you're at it already, please compare upped Frog and upped Phoenix. -20% attack for effective invincibility. Zomg nerf Minor Phoenix!!11

[mesaprotector]

Doublepost, but otherwise it gets too messy.

Than making a crappy element with all o|1 creatures and 0 damage reducing shields but including a 100|100 creature with a 4 cost will be ok?

Elements have to be balanced. But of course cards have to be balanced too. That doesn't mean all cards have to be the same. There is no existing top deck that includes Horned Frog - case closed. Fractal Frog is the thing that comes closest, but it's not more than an HB farmer.
Oh, and speaking of fractal: If you're at it already, please compare upped Frog and upped Phoenix. -20% attack for effective invincibility. Zomg nerf Minor Phoenix!!11

This.

Also, try out some water rushes with the new SoP before calling Crawler useless.

[OldTrees]

Phase Spider 3 -> 4|2 (a bad ability)
-snip-

Blue Crawler 3 -> 3|3
Firefly 3 -> 3|2 (a bad ability)
Graviton Mercenary 4 -> 3|5
Flesh Spider 3 -> 3|3 (a bad ability)
Theory based division between sets. (Updated CIA theory not the thread. No elemental bonuses)
Mummy 4 -> 5|3
Abomination 5 -> 5|5
Graviton Mercenary 3 -> 3|5
Phase Spider 3 -> 4|2 (a bad ability)
Gargoyle 5 -> 5|3 (a skippable ability)
Antlion 2 -> 2|3 (a skippable ability)
Hematite Golem 4 -> 4|6
Horned Frog 2 -> 3|3
Cockatrice 3 -> 4|4

Buff 4 or nerf 9?

Edit: Mummy fixed

[eaglgenes101]

Mummy's actually 4 for 5|3.

[willng3]

Alright there's several different aspects of this discussion that I would like to bring to light.  Where to begin...

Let's pretend for a moment that Horned Frog is OP and should be nerfed to 3|3 as a result.  What does this solve for the other 3 for 3 attackers?  Nothing, right?  We're then in a position where Flesh Spider and Firefly have an ability that none of the others have and Graviton Mercenary has more HP than the rest.  Would those three then need to be nerfed so that they're all on equal standing?  There's been talk of power creep occurring here recently, and this discussion is without a doubt direct proof of that.

The problem as I see it here is that there appears to be two separate views for how the game should function and progress in the future.  One is according to each element separately while the other is the twelve collectively.  This is why some people were furious when the Shards became Element-ized while others thought it was the best thing that could happen to the game.  And this is also why there's a problem here.  You're looking at the twelve elements as if they're all identical when in fact each one is supposed to have its own niche and advantages which the others do not possess. 

Life (unupped) has always had cheaper creatures for as long as I've been playing this game.  If you remove this advantage and view this in terms of all elements being equals then Horned Frog is too cheap in comparison to Blue Crawler and Flesh Spider.  This is also why Emerald Dragon has the same cost, but noticeably higher HP than the other 10 for 10 Dragons.  However, if you remove the cost reduction advantage then this also consequently takes away its swarming capabilities which in turn makes Mitosis and Empathic Bond weaker.  So you'd also take away its swarming capabilities which in turn means that healing would be Life's greatest characteristic.  But we already have Light for that, and Light does it better too.

The problem that I believe is at work here is not that there's necessarily a balancing issue, but rather that each of the cards made out to be UP are not fitting their niches well at all.  What does a 3 for 3 creature do for Death?  Nothing really as it already has Poison and Mummy to serve the lower part of the rushing domain.  Its only real redemption is that it has the ability Web, but this has absolutely no value for Death.  Buffing Flesh Spider's stats would make most feel like it's less UP, but consider that most agree that Elite Mummy and Flesh Recluse are not balanced towards each other, which consequently makes many feel that Mummy should be buffed or that the Recluse should be nerfed.  The same could be expected to occur here depending on how it's revised.

I personally believe that the simplest solution to this problem would be to revise both the Spider and Crawler so that they fit their niches better.  Not necessarily because it would help balance them in comparison to the other Elements, but rather so that their respective elements get more of a use from them.  Things are going slightly off topic with this portion of my post, but I believe this a topic better aimed at dealing with the whole "power creep" issue once and for all since it will continue to occur in a similar manner for future updates if things continue like this, mark my words.

To help these cards fit their niches better you'd need to examine what their Elements are known for.  Death seems to be about Poison and Decay.  If additional Web synergy cannot be added to Death (some kind of penalty to grounded creatures perhaps?) then perhaps its ability needs to be revised into something more appropriate.  Something that gives a bonus to Poison damage would be pretty cool, for instance.  Crawlers on the other hand would need to make more use of Water's ability to control the opponent.  Desiccation does little to help this, but perhaps the Crawler could be given some kind of bonus for every creature that is frozen?  Point here is that Frogs (excluding upped) by themselves are not that strong, but with assistance from cards within Element they become much stronger.  I probably wouldn't use Horned Frogs nearly as much if Adrenaline did not exist, for example.

I don't see Firefly as being comparable to the other 3 being discussed here really.  It strikes me as more of a Skeleton-like card that exists mainly because it can be generated by another card, the difference here being that Firefly is significantly more useful than what Skeleton can offer by itself.  I don't think that anyone can argue that Skeleton as a standalone card is strong.