[Official] Black Hole | Black Hole

[Dm]

Making BH less costly in early game is actually worse. Most rainbows are speed rainbows. You know what that means, right? Fine tuned for speed. First few turns = quanta. If you make it easier to play the BH early game, it would be more powerful than before, if used with the correct timing.

I'd also like to point out that the only place where you claimed BH is OP is against Rainbows.

Just because a card counters something does not mean it is OP nor does it mean that it needs a nerf.

Example: You say Sanctuary is often considered UP.

I tell you - No. Sanctuary absolutely destroys Ghostmare unless it has steal. Therefore, Sanctuary is OP and needs a nerf.

The above is obviously a lie, but it is, at the very core, the premise of your original post.

Draining 24 quanta: There is no real benchmark for how expensive draining quanta should be, so I will use Nova, and assume that draining 12 quanta is worth a card. In that case, draining 24 quanta should be worth two cards.

Supernova generates 24 quanta with one card. Therefore, I assume that draining 24 quanta is worth a card.  In that case, draining 24 quanta is worth one card. (Yup.)

Now for my second argument: that BH lacks effective counters.

Through this logic, Psions need a nerf. They lack effective counters, if not for two sole shields that are rarely used -- less so than sanctuary.

One problem I had with your post --

there is no effective, practical way to counter it if you are playing a rainbow.

and

It has only one effective counter, which is a card that is not frequently used and is generally considered to be slightly UP.

I don't know about you and others, but ever since Sanctuary came out, it is -almost- common sense for you to place one of them into your deck. They have low cost, protect your hand AND quanta, and are also from a element that is relatively un-used in Rainbows except for a much expensive card that is used late game. (Hello, Miracle!) As for Sanctuary being "UP" and Black Hole being "OP against Rainbows", therefore "deserving" of a nerf, I point again to my sanctuary earlier on in this post and the psions two quotes above.

Healing 24 HP: I'll use the Heal card here, as 20 HP is almost the same as 24 HP. Therefore healing 24 quanta is worth 3 quanta and a card.

Light Mark and Shard of Divinity, a commonly used card. Heals 24 HP. Healing 24 HP (not quanta, by the way) is worth 3 quanta and a card. That'd be more effective for comparison.

I like it how you compare the cost theories and all of that, but you're forgetting one thing -- How and when is it played?

if BH is used lategame

If BH is used lategame, it doesn't matter how much it heals. The Rainbow will usually have beaten you by then or will have used most of it's quantum (as comproved by the several Speedbows.) And if neither happened, the Rainbow is most likely a stall and you really have a slim chance of backing up unless you play more than One black hole repeatedly by the time it has set off. And it will commonly have sanctuary, I should add.

Edit:

People seem to forget about one card which can make BH OP against any deck.

Just because a combo is OP does not mean any of the cards are OP in their own rights, something that has been argued several times with several people over the nerfing of SoR and the infamous deck Instosis.

I should also add Discord has received a minor nerf not too long ago. And by not too long I mean one year or something.

[Laxadarap]

-snip-
Example: You say Sanctuary is often considered UP.

I tell you - No. Sanctuary absolutely destroys Ghostmare unless it has steal. Therefore, Sanctuary is OP and needs a nerf.

The above is obviously a lie, but it is, at the very core, the premise of your original post.
-snip-

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,46817.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39262.msg493955.html#msg493955

Yeah, not quite .  Anyhow, I agree with the rest of his post, I would actually argue that bhole needs a buff though.  Without discord it is essentially useless against anything not a rainbow.  If it instead took percentages of quanta, for example, it would be better against a mono/duo, and a bit worse against rainbows.  Would make everybody happy .  Detailed this as an answer in my trials thread.

[Fireleaf]

Making BH less costly in early game is actually worse. Most rainbows are speed rainbows. You know what that means, right? Fine tuned for speed. First few turns = quanta. If you make it easier to play the BH early game, it would be more powerful than before, if used with the correct timing. Maybe, but that's debatable.

I'd also like to point out that the only place where you claimed BH is OP is against Rainbows.

Just because a card counters something does not mean it is OP nor does it mean that it needs a nerf. Point taken.

Example: You say Sanctuary is often considered UP. Which is true.

I tell you - No. Sanctuary absolutely destroys Ghostmare unless it has steal. Therefore, Sanctuary is OP and needs a nerf.

The above is obviously a lie, but it is, at the very core, the premise of your original post. Nearly every Ghostmare has steal. Most rainbows don't have Sanc. Secondly, look at the first link in Laxadrap's post; even though you say Sanc destroys Ghostmare, Chapuz wins two of five matches.

Draining 24 quanta: There is no real benchmark for how expensive draining quanta should be, so I will use Nova, and assume that draining 12 quanta is worth a card. In that case, draining 24 quanta should be worth two cards.

Supernova generates 24 quanta with one card. Therefore, I assume that draining 24 quanta is worth a card.  In that case, draining 24 quanta is worth one card. (Yup.) You forget that not only is SN an upped card, but that it costs 2 . I feel that my cost evaluation is appropriate.

Now for my second argument: that BH lacks effective counters.

Through this logic, Psions need a nerf. They lack effective counters, if not for two sole shields that are rarely used -- less so than sanctuary. Last time I checked, Psions could be countered by every single CC card in the game.

One problem I had with your post --

there is no effective, practical way to counter it if you are playing a rainbow.

and

It has only one effective counter, which is a card that is not frequently used and is generally considered to be slightly UP.

I don't know about you and others, but ever since Sanctuary came out, it is -almost- common sense for you to place one of them into your deck. They have low cost, protect your hand AND quanta, and are also from a element that is relatively un-used in Rainbows except for a much expensive card that is used late game. (Hello, Miracle!) As for Sanctuary being "UP" and Black Hole being "OP against Rainbows", therefore "deserving" of a nerf, I point again to my sanctuary earlier on in this post and the psions two quotes above. Given that Sanc only counters pest, BH, NM and discord, I would call it quite situational; I would much rather have an Elite Pegasus or even an Improved Blessing than a Sanc.

Healing 24 HP: I'll use the Heal card here, as 20 HP is almost the same as 24 HP. Therefore healing 24 quanta is worth 3 quanta and a card.

Light Mark and Shard of Divinity, a commonly used card. Heals 24 HP. Healing 24 HP (not quanta, by the way) is worth 3 quanta and a card. That'd be more effective for comparison. So just to clarify, you agree with my assessment.

I like it how you compare the cost theories and all of that, but you're forgetting one thing -- How and when is it played?

if BH is used lategame

If BH is used lategame, it doesn't matter how much it heals. Really? Say I've got 35 damage on the table, you have 5 health and you BH me, healing yourself for 36HP. That seems like it matters quite a bit to me. The Rainbow will usually have beaten you by then or will have used most of it's quantumSpeedbows have QTs as well as SNs. (as comproved Comproved?by the several Speedbows.) And if neither happened, the Rainbow is most likely a stall and you really have a slim chance of backing up unless you play more than One black hole repeatedly by the time it has set off. And it will commonly have sanctuary, I should add.

Edit:

People seem to forget about one card which can make BH OP against any deck.

Just because a combo is OP does not mean any of the cards are OP in their own rights, something that has been argued several times with several people over the nerfing of SoR and the infamous deck Instosis. I'd challenge that point, but this isn't the thread for it.

I should also add Discord has received a minor nerf not too long ago. And by not too long I mean one year or something. The disco nerf was so small that it's impossible to notice unless you really pay attention.

[Dm]

Dayum. I'm going to ask that next time you really place your points under my quotes.. or in separate places..

This makes it really hard for me with just a mousepad to follow through everything here.

About the first being debatable, hardly. The start of a Ranibow is almost always the start of one single supernova, due to the supernova nerf. That means that making it drain two quanta only makes it actually more cost - effective than draining three quanta, as your premise also adds that it will cost less. Agree?

Second yellow message - Aright.

Third yellow message - Since Sanctuary destroys Pestal, etc. etc. etc., it couldn't be considered UP. It's OP in situational Places. For example, by that new logic of yours -- BH is only OP against Rainbows. Sanctuary is OP against these decks. BH is severely UP against Mono-Duo. Sanctuary is UP in the rest of the matches. (BH is much more situational than Sanctuary, I would add.) And even in the case where you are fighting a Mono, Sanctuary would still heal more and prove more defence than Black Hole.

Fourth Yellow Message - Nearly every ghostmare has steal. You can use Sanctuary either way, as the Sanctuary effect lingers on up until the next turn of yours (As in-- until the next time you press space bar.) If you're afraid of steal, proper timing of your Sanctuary playing means you have turns of protection even against steal. ^^

Fifth Yellow Message - Worry not, I have not forgotten. Blackhole costs Three Quanta upgraded and is also one card. I think it is still proportional and appropriate.

Sixth Yellow Message - We could debate this further, but the fact that said Psions would often come in bunches and the fact that said CC would often be too weak to destroy the Psions (Psions have four health, bypassing most common means of CC except for Freeze, Basilisk Blood, Shockwave, and Lightning. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not including Ice Bolt, Fire Bolt, or Drain Life buffed as drain life and ice bolt are rarely used and rarely buffed, and Fire Bolt is usually only past the 10 Fire Quantum mark when it is meant to be used in the Opponent's health, as in Fire Stalls.)

Seventh yellow message -  (I'm going to bother copy pasting and quoting, but only because it is too far down for me to read it.)

Given that Sanc only counters pest, BH, NM and discord, I would call it quite situational; I would much rather have an Elite Pegasus or even an Improved Blessing than a Sanc.

BH only counters Rainbows, being severely UP against Mono-Duo, the other most common forms of Decks. Your point..? While BH has a higher spectrum, by definition it is very situational in it's healing account. I would like to remind you Sanc is also a cheap Healing form, therefore not that bad in a rainbow.

Eight --

So just to clarify, you agree with my assessment.

Yes.

Ninth --

Really? Say I've got 35 damage on the table, you have 5 health and you BH me, healing yourself for 36HP. That seems like it matters quite a bit to me.

You have 35 Damage on the table. I have one card. I drained 36 Quanta.

Let's follow the logic now.

1) You already have 35 damage out, I will die in the few next turns.
2) You had less quanta than usual, as you have used creatures to have that Damage. Agreed? Disagreed? You can disagree. "Quantum Towers". Most rainbows are purely Pendulum Powered (Again, it is faster. You can comprove this yourself. Rainbow section of our forums! Search the effective ones -- the used ones.)
3) Unless I have some form of massive, heavy CC to kill off all your creatures, or have more and more BH's to continue to save me, I will die.

I don't think that bothers you. All you have to do is press spacebar.

Speedbows have QTs as well as SNs

Finding QT Speedbows is a rare sight. They are slower. Most rainbows are PSN. Pendulum.

I'd challenge that point, but this isn't the thread for it.

I'd swap it a bit. "I'd challenge that point, but several threads in the Nerf section have discussed it to near breaking point."

The disco nerf was so small that it's impossible to notice unless you really pay attention.

That's why I called it minor.

[Fireleaf]

I have no clue how we moved on to comparing BH to Sanc, so I'll drop that for now.

With regards to using SN as a comparison to determine the card cost value of BH, the cost is 2 + 1 card, not just 1 card. (using two Novas is "cheaper" in this sense)

Secondly, my point about Ghostmares is that they usually almost always contain a built-in counter to the one card that really hurts them: they pack 3-5 steals to deal with Sancs, dim shields etc.

The main problem I have with spell damage (and this is unrelated but sort of links to Psions) is when it comes from SoW, because then you have an immortal creature dealing spell damage. There is only one way to counter that; the rarely used reflective and emerald shields. Psions in and of themselves are not, imho, OP.

I should probably mention here that I play a QT SoSebow and not a PSNbow, so that is where some of my logic comes from.

The example I used regarding the late-game BH mattering assumed that we were in a close game and that we were both very low on health; therefore your BH would have won the game for you.

With regards to Sanc being cheap healing, it heals 4 for 3 .
SoG heals 3 for 2 , a better ratio, and a much better ratio still if you have a mark of  .

[Dm]

Aw, it was fun. But you bring it up again at the end of your post..?

With regards to using SN as a comparison to determine the card cost value of BH, Upped compared to Upped is perfectly fine. Supernova is 2 +1 card. Black Hole is 3 + 1 card. Your point? Supernova will generate 24 Quanta, in which case Black Hole will drain 24. Supernova is cheaper and BH is more expensive, doing it in reverse. Yup. Nova is absolutely 0 cost, requires two cards to generate 24 Quanta -- Black Hole costs 4 Quanta in this case to drain the 24 quanta, for one card. Black Hole costs more, but is only one card to undo what two 0 cost cards did -- generate 24 quanta. They're equal, and if not equal, Nova would surpass it in this term. A 0 cost card requiring a Four Cost card to undo it?..

Your point about ghostmare is that they almost always contain a built-in counter to the one card that really hurts them: They pack 3-5 steals to deal with Sancs, dim shields, etc.
My point about Rainbows is that they usually almost always have the common sense to add a built-in counter to the one card that really hurts them. Black Hole.

Psions are situationally OP if your deck does not possess the Hard CC I have mentioned and that you did not disagree with, I see. Therefore, psions are situationally OP... which is what you said about Black Hole. And I said over sanc. Situationally OP... Like everything else.

I should probably mention what you use and what it is are two different things. I could tell you I use a 60 card lulzy electrum hourglass powered rainbow in PVP2 (That actually is kind of true...), but that does not mean it is the norm. The usual are PSN powered rainbows, not QT powered rainbows. And as much as we are being situational here, we should really be talking about the usual -- Pendulum Supernova Rainbows.

Your example regarding late game BH - You are a rainbow and most likely have more forms of CC and PC than I, therefore the chances of me not having anything surviving on table when you have 35 damage in the table is high. You also never stated that we were both low on health. That is, again, incredibly situational and not the usual norm.

With regards to Sanc being cheap, 4 for 3 .
SoG heals 3 for 2 .

I am not the best mathematician, but I am sure that raising one for each isn't that bad.

[Fireleaf]

First things first, the SoG ratio of quanta to HP is better than the Sanc's.

Secondly, don't forget the healing power of a BH when comparing it to SN.

Thirdly, most PSNbows don't have Sancs; if you find counter-examples feel free to show me.

Fourthly, Psions are only OP if you have no CC; and no matter what deck you are playing (except mono or ), you have access to CC.

Finally, with regards to the situationalness of late-game BH, it can change the tide of a game like few other cards can (dim, miracle and RoF come to mind). Agreed, in most games both players won't be in the situation I mentioned, but it happens often enough that it is relevant.

And one last thing: Amber Nymph.

[whatifidogetcaught?]

First things first, the SoG ratio of quanta to HP is better than the Sanc's.

Unless you don't have a Life mark, and then Sanc has a bonus anyway.

Secondly, don't forget the healing power of a BH when comparing it to SN.

Don't forget the ability to simply pull out cheap creatures before a BH hits.

Thirdly, most PSNbows don't have Sancs; if you find counter-examples feel free to show me.

There isn't many of those at all, so good point.

Fourthly, Psions are only OP if you have no CC; and no matter what deck you are playing (except mono or ), you have access to CC.

and BH is only OP if you have a rainbow. dim shields are OP without PC. sancs is only OP if you have a BH deck.

Finally, with regards to the situationalness of late-game BH, it can change the tide of a game like few other cards can (dim, miracle and RoF come to mind). Agreed, in most games both players won't be in the situation I mentioned, but it happens often enough that it is relevant.

Black Hole can change the tide of the game pretty easily, so I won't argue that one.

And one last thing: Amber Nymph.

"if you have no CC"

[Dm]

First things first, SoG ratio of quanta to HP is just as good as Sanc in the sense that it is just a 1hp 1quanta trademark. Sanctuary also has a healing bonus without life mark and protect hand and quanta. I'm sure it's pretty good.

Secondly, most Supernova powered rainbows have an usual creature cost of two to four quanta -- Usually four. If you use Two Supernova, I'm crippling you as usual. Let's not forget that 2 Supernovas = 4 for 48 quanta. But let's not forget, Supernova pays itself when it is played -- It is close to literally 0 for 48 quanta, as the only prerequisite is having 2 . Black Hole is still 3 and one card to cover what two "theorically 0" cost cards do.
Don't forget the cost and ability.

Thirdly -- ALL PSNbows are highly versatile and easily could swap one or one SuperNova or one -anything- for one or two Sanctuary, as Sanctuary is only 3:light and easily fits in any rainbow. It is known that PSNbows have various modifications of the same deck.

Fourthly, lol. You do know most decks in-game don't bother with CC and are optmized for Rush, right? Unless you're fighting Silver or Gold, which is where you need more control -- and even then a Rush can still win several decks, I've tried it --  the PC and CC is literally tossed out the window of the deck as it will slow you down. Most of the decks are rushy in the metagame. Apart from that, you would have OTK decks and the like -- Usually, with Sundials and Hourglasses. Not a lot of CC. No PC either -- Chimera would get rid of that.

About Amber Nymph, funny y'should say that. Amber Nymph is one card, is 1/3, and costs 9 quanta + a 3 quanta (12 quanta), to do the same as one card (BlackHole) although repeatedly. This mean that, literally speaking, unless you get an Amber Nymph out relatively quick, it will be close to useless late game as the PSN bow has used all of it's quanta or most of it's quanta by playing the creatures. I'd like to point out that if you keep using Supernovas after your deck set off, you're just giving the guy with a rainbow or potential gravity mark chance to eat your HP -- You're digging your own grave unnecessarily.

And then, what whatifidogetcaught? said.

[Laxadarap]

Another thing I want to bring out, as it is a very good point in regards to your snova vs. bhole comparison, is that bhole is reactive instead of proactive.  Even if it is just by a turn, a snova can give plenty of burst.  The bhole just has to sit there.  Take another card.  If you use silence in a speedbow, you can snova perfectly fine (on your own choosing, if the bhole user had it for example, they would have to guess when you would snova), afford that, be good to snova again, and empty your entire hand of any speedbow creatures you would like.  A flesh recluse, phase recluse, and abyss crawler would give you almost 20 damage, in addition to any you all ready have.  The bholer can heal 36, true, but the damage of the speedbow is allready built.  And the bhole can only do it once. 

You also mention speed, saying that your imagining you both have no hp, and the single bhole saves you.  Problem with this is that in order for it to be consistent, you need a couple black holes, which take up quanta and card space, making the rest of the deck slower.  This may be fine, but remember, black hole is reactive.  Your damage is all ready out before they get can bhole and lock you (unless they bhole every turn to keep of snova quanta, in which case they aren't playing a lot of damage, and they don't have bholes for your full snovas). 

Finally, something that you seem to be shrugging off, and I will bring sanctuary back into this.  Black hole is nowhere near as effective against monos and duos, it is pretty much a useless card.  Even if it is against a rainbow, it can either be a snovabow (can burst), a snova OTK (which is hard countered),  rainbow stall (can shrug off some bholes, and CC is cheap), unupped novabow, such as a grabbow (just save novas, your good, again, great burst while bh can do nothing), or ANY RAINBOW WITH A SANCTUARY.

Ok, now to elaborate on Sanctuary, it is really not UP.  It is one of the very few constant healing cards in the game, as of now, SoG is the only other one I can think of.  Even if it does cost an extra quanta, it heals 1 less.  This may not seem like a lot when heal can heal 20 for the same amount of quanta as upped sanctuary, but this is periodic.  If your game lasts a 5 turns after you get out sanc, your matching that, not counting the protection from nightmare, bhole, pests, shard of bravery, or silence.  Also, there has been an efficiency study as to whether it is best to get really cost effective creatures which are cheap/low damage, mid hitters, or high hitters.  The mid hitters kill faster.  This is because even if they aren't quite as effective, they are worth the card advantage.  A hand full of Microabominations does 12 damage, while a Hand full of abyss crawlers (unupped, and weak compared to other cards) does 18.  Even if they cost more, you will likely have the quanta to play for them, and you save 6 damage, or another 3 micro abominations in card advantage.  The same applies to sanctuary.  Even if this is not a huge balancing point, it does justify it's usefulness over SoG.

And one more thing, earlier to refute Dm's point, you said that ghostmare pack 3-5 steals.  No, they really don't.  This is the case if your facing arena decks, but ghostmares generally don't have the quanta to focus on a bunch of steals, especially if RT and vampire dagger are used.  Both are more versatile, and generally better.  They also synergize nicely with ghostmare overall.  There are usually 2 steals in a ghostmare, vs. 6 sancs in a sanc stall, or 1-2 in a snovabow.

[jazzfan27]

How can you compare teh cost of SuperNova to Black Hole?  You know 100% that you want a Super Nova in your deck.  You have no idea if a BH is going to be any good in your deck.  One is situational the other isn't.

That's a huge difference.

[Fireleaf]

Wow. So... I have a lot to respond to here.

I'm not going to bother quoting and responding individually because then I'd be sitting at my computer for a couple of years.

@jazzfan27: I'm not comparing them as cards in a deck, I'm comparing their effects for the purpose of a card cost comparison.

@Laxadarap: With regards to monos and duos, and as Absol said about a month ago, Discord makes BH useful against almost any deck. Also, I'm not necessarily arguing that Sanc is UP, just that it is used relatively infrequently, especially in rush decks. Obviously Ghostmares differ, but I would feel justified in saying that at least half of them use Steal (I may have been exaggerating when I said most have 3 - 5). With reference to your use of 1-2 sancs in a SNbow, feel free to show me some examples. I haven't seen a single one.

@Dm1321: The ratio is not the same. Use your calculator if you have to: 3 / 2 > 4 / 3. I would argue that the SN nerf makes it less of a "relatively 0-cost card" than it used to be because now you can't use them all in one turn; your opponent has chances to lower your  quanta. BH also heals (on average, lets say), 24 HP. How many  is that worth? Also, putting one sanc in a PSNbow  (there's no way you have the deck space or the quanta to put two) is far from a guarantee that you'll draw it early enough to protect you from BH. And if you're seriously suggesting that most decks have no control, then I think your understanding of the metagame may not be perfect; in a rush vs. rush scenario, the faster rush wins. But if a stall plays a rush, the stall typically wins. Therefore game theory necessitates that if the majority of decks are rushes, smart players will begin to play more stalls because they can reliably beat rushes. And yes, Arena is one of the places where you definitely need control (try outrushing a 200 HP deck that's drawing two cards a turn).

@whatifidogetcaught?: I think I covered everything you posted in my responses to Laxadarap and Dm1321.